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'Grand Prince of All Russia' Sues to Get Kremlin Back

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posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 09:30 PM
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www.aolnews.com...


Descendants of Russia's first ruling dynasty have gone to court to reclaim their ancestral lands – specifically, the Kremlin.


On Monday, the Moscow Arbitration Court decided the case will be heard Oct. 18. The plaintiff is the Princes' Foundation for the Advancement of Religious and National Consensus, founded in May 2009 by Valery Kubarev, who traces his lineage to the Rurik dynasty. It was under the reign of Rurik grand princes, Kubarev claims, that the Kremlin was constructed.

According to its website, the foundation seeks "usage rights" to the Kremlin "in perpetuity."


I HIGHLY doubt there is any possability they will get the Kremlin back I mean come on. It's interesting none the less though. Doesn't Russia have enough problems other than a lawsuit from a former royal family?




posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


To me this is just stupid honestly. I think many of us can trace our lineage to something does that mean we have a right to it? No...

If I can trace my lineage back to the castles in France can I have one?!


This imo will never work out. To me it seems like they are doing it for the spotlight. I mean if it were some shack in the woods would they care so much? No probably not, this is the Kremlin who wouldnt want to claim it?

So I am guessing the guy who traced his family roots back to Vlad the Impaler should get his HUGE castle that is actually for sale right now



posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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The Kremlin was taken from the Russian royals, so they might have a case.

There might be some major infighting to determine who has rights to call themselves the Czar, but considering royalty continues n many parts of the world, including Europe and Japan, the royals in Russia might have a legitimate claim that the Kremlin was taken from them illegally.

This will be interesting to see how it is played out.



posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by mblahnikluver
reply to post by Misoir
 


To me this is just stupid honestly. I think many of us can trace our lineage to something does that mean we have a right to it? No...

If I can trace my lineage back to the castles in France can I have one?!


This imo will never work out. To me it seems like they are doing it for the spotlight. I mean if it were some shack in the woods would they care so much? No probably not, this is the Kremlin who wouldnt want to claim it?

So I am guessing the guy who traced his family roots back to Vlad the Impaler should get his HUGE castle that is actually for sale right now




No one can buy or sell anyone or anything that was never for sale in the first place.



posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Again how long ago was this supposedly taken from them? I know nothing of the Kremlin, only recently ever really looked at it after the UFO sightings. Very neat place I must say.

I mean if people should return things to their proper owners then the Vatican needs to give Egypt back their obleisks they stole.

It's an interesting story and it could get even more interesting I guess, however IMO it's stupid and silly. Yes it's cool to trace your family to there but does that mean you should get the place? No I don't think so...but that is just me.

I mean what do they want it for anyway?



posted on Aug, 18 2010 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


By now there is no doubt thousands of descendants from the same royal family of that time period..

Still, it's surprising the case will even be heard lol....



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 12:38 AM
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There's nothing morally or legally wrong with monarchy, and feudalism is technically still the law (it has been patched over with various laws since then). It is entirely possible for this prince and others to win suits to have their property, the land of Russia in this case, returned to them with the stipulation that they must permit the current tenants (Russian Federation) to remain. There would be a very limited constitutional monarchy and nothing would change in day-to-day life, but justice would be done and the royal family's lands returned to them.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 12:46 AM
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I thought the last of the Russian Tsar and his family were murdered some time ago ?

Murder of the Tsar and His Family



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 12:47 AM
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reply to post by BuBoo
 


You still have the Tsar's brother who wanted to take over. I believe he tried to and was later deposed off.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 01:37 AM
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This kind of cases occurred in other countries as well.
There are always a large number of important people behind the ones starting the lawsuit.

They never get back what they are after , but still, in most cases , they will receive land or properties that a normal people can call "of incommensurable value " , properties that will eventually be divided between all those who are behind the "lawsuit starter"



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:37 AM
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Anyone can "trace their lineage back to royalty." That's why I always laugh when somebody claims to be a descendent of such-and-such a famous person. Basically, every person alive with any caucasian blood is a descendent of Julius Caesar; every person alive with any Mongol blood is a descendent of Genghis Khan, and so on.

Let's do the math. According to a quick Internet search, Rurik of Russia was alive in 862 AD. That is 1,148 years ago. Assuming a rough definition of a generation every 25 years (i.e., a person having a child at age 25), that's about 45 generations ago. Carrying the "2...4...8..16" sequence out 45 terms gives over 70 trillion individual ancestors in the early 800s for each person alive today. Multiply 70 trillion times an assumed global population of 6.7 billion gives. 4.69 × 10-to-the-23rd-power (a number too large to have an "-illion" name). Since the earth had only 220 million or so people back in the 800s (again, according to an internet search), the degree of overlap is a ten-to-the-fifteenth-power number. This means, statisticaly speaking, there is a roughly 100% chance that any given individual on the planet today will have Rurik as one of their ancestors.

Even beyond sheer logic, whoever the clamant is will have to go through Putin first. Putin could crush your windpipe without twitching a facial muscle. Does Putin look amused?:





[edit on 8/19/10 by silent thunder]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:46 AM
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they aren't seeking for Russia to give the Kremlin back. the Prince's Foundation is asking for usage rights. meaning they want to be able to use the Kremlin for their official business as well.

But yes I'm surprised the case will even be heard.

And i can trace my lineage back to all the way back to Mary Queen of Scots. Does that mean i claim to be the Ruler of Scotland now and get a castle?


[edit on 8/19/2010 by Mercenary2007]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:49 AM
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I think that the most favorable outcome for these folks is that the Russian government settles out of court for a large sum of cash. Just my two cents.

And no. The Putin is not amused.

Kto Mogyet Byltz? Ya.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 


A Royal family isn't just a genealogical list, it is a corporate body, a House with its own rules for government and membership. The House pursues the interests of its members who are entitled to an office. Not everybody in the House qualifies for offices granted to its members. Those offices may be customarily denied to women, so that any female descendants of the officer are disinherited. They may also be limited by custom to eldest sons, so that any younger sons are disinherited as well. In the case of the Monarch of the UK, Catholic heirs are also disinherited. Of all the thousands of people descended of the House of Rurik, very few are eligible to claim the title of Grand Duke and the claimants must be sorted out and selected by the government of the House. Royal claims are not as silly as you and others portray them.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by silent thunder
 


A Royal family isn't just a genealogical list, it is a corporate body, a House with its own rules for government and membership. The House pursues the interests of its members who are entitled to an office. Not everybody in the House qualifies for offices granted to its members. Those offices may be customarily denied to women, so that any female descendants of the officer are disinherited. They may also be limited by custom to eldest sons, so that any younger sons are disinherited as well. In the case of the Monarch of the UK, Catholic heirs are also disinherited. Of all the thousands of people descended of the House of Rurik, very few are eligible to claim the title of Grand Duke and the claimants must be sorted out and selected by the government of the House. Royal claims are not as silly as you and others portray them.


Well, OK, that's a fair point I suppose.

But even so, the farther back one goes, the hazier it gets. The Romanov Tsar was deposed in 1917. So its plausable that, 93 years later, the group of people directly descended from Nicholas II's family would be fairly small.

But the article mentions the "Rurik dynasty." This started up in the 800s, according to my Internet search. The Romanov dynasty started later (1600s, according to another internet search).

It is telling that they are claiming descent from the Rurik Dynasty rather than the Romanov dynasty (although it seems the two are related). The pool of people who could plausably claim some descent from Rurik would still be much, much larger than the pool of people people who could claim descent from the last Tsar and his immediate family. I don't know how reliable the geneological records are for the 800s-through-the-middle-ages, and I don't know what kind of claims from that time could be considered as legally binding by any court today.

[edit on 8/19/10 by silent thunder]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 

The House keeps its own records, which may or may not be recognized by the court as valid. Genealogy was and still is an extremely important career path all around the world because of the vital importance of ancient tribal agreements in forming the foundation of civil society and law. When caste and class systems were more openly enforced, one's heredity was vital to one's rights in society, as defined by the status of one's family's past contracts.

en.wikipedia.org...
This was the last Rurikid ruler of Russia, in the office of Tsar of Russia. Feodor died without issue, and his brother, who would have inherited the office, also died without issue. The heir of Feodor would have been the brother of his father, Ivan IV the Terrible, except that he too had died without issue. The Ruriks seem to have been pretty hard on each other, as most of Ivan IV's uncles and their children had been killed or prevented from marriage. In fact, there are so many dead uncles that as far as I can tell, the only male line descendants of the Ruriks that live today are descended from Ivan I, crowned in 1328. What a family!

Of course, all of this could change if the House of Rurik has changed their inheritance laws since then.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:40 AM
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reply to post by SmedleyBurlap
 


Interesting info, thanks for that.

I wonder if Russia would consider using/co-opting the alleged royals for nationalist or propaganda purposes. Maybe they could cut some kind of deal with each other. It would be ironic if 90 years after the revolution Russia had a royal family again. Stranger things have happend...



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 


I wouldn't be surprised,or appalled. The Russian Federation uses the old flag of Russia, and commemorated an old monument to the Rurik rulers in 1998
en.wikipedia.org...(Russia)

It's my opinion (i think its fact, but cant prove it yet) that constitutional monarchy is always superior to a republican government. Monarchs, unlike presidents, do not depend on popular support. The public is always stupid and ignorant of the political realities at the highest levels, and so it is best to be cautious and conservative (monarchy) instead of radical and populist (presidency). Russia's stability issues should make a restored figurehead monarchy more appealing.

I'd say Putin isn't an issue here, since he made himself PM and gave that office more power; Medvedev can be ousted and Putin would be able to work under a monarch with no significant loss of his own power.



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