Statist School Systems In A Nutshell

Competition is a sin.

Government is god.

Anyone that believes we should privatize the school system must hate Amerika and want to see teachers begging in the streets while the poor are remanded to lead an uneducated life as slave labor.

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Nut shell hahahaha

Of course, John Stossel brings us an entire show dedicated to destroying the myth that government can actually provide our children a decent education.

US skools rank beneath that of Slovenia in terms of scholastic performance.

The US publik has been turned into a bunch of mush brained, slovenly, dim witted, inept, and dependent statists by our criminal education system that is paid for by government violently looting people who don't even have kids.

Watch the show and give yourself an education in the benefits of competition that the publik schools will not teach you.



Watch the entire show here:
fascistsoup.com...

More shows here:
fascistsoup.com...



[edit on 18-8-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


I agree that our public school system is terrible in the US.

However, privatization is apparently not the answer.

According to UNICEF, the top 5 educated countries in the world are as follows:

1.South Korea
2.Japan
3.Finland
4.Canada
5.Australia

CNN

What do all of these countries have in common? Very strong public school systems.

The solution to our troubles is not to further complicate things by privatizing education, but to simply improve our public schools by investing more money into them, hiring better teachers (and paying them better), and ensuring that all of our public schools are well-funded, well-staffed, and most importantly efficient learning environments.

The system we currently have (where you can opt to send your children to a private school if you can afford it) is fine. There's absolutely no need to put additional financial strain on parents that could force them to make the decision not to educate their children. Such a situation would considerably reduce the overall intelligence of our country's children.


Also, the United States still ranks fairly high among global education rankings, so it's not all doom and gloom. We are actually doing quite well for a country with so much crime and poverty.


[edit on 18-8-2010 by drwizardphd]

reply to post by drwizardphd


Yeah the problem with looking at education in terms of GDP is that GDP doesn't measure the actual productive output of the economy.

In the US, the GDP includes such spending as our entire defense budget, the entire police state apparatus, the budget of the EPA, the stimulus programs, and all other non-productive government expenditures.

So when we look at South Korea, who's total military spending amounted to 2.6% of 2005 GDP, compared with our own 4.7 (just military) spending, we can see the huge distortions such a comparison involves.

In looking at the actual money spent, the US tops the charts.

More money is not the solution.

More government is not the solution.

Less government and more competition is the solution.



[edit on 18-8-2010 by mnemeth1]

Did you blame stupidity of people on the government?

criminal education system that is paid for by government violently looting people who don't even have kids.

This does not happen. You're not being pillaged, invaded, beat, executed, tortured, etc.

Do the people that do not have kids support the idea of paying for an education through taxes? I haven't seen anyone against it, ever.

We should just hand over education to massive corporations.

Sorry kids, now a quick word from our sponsors: Today's lesson was brought to you by the good folks who exploit anything and everything god damn possible that they find regardless of moral standards, or harm they cause. They could put ads on the texts, walls, give teachers sponsor ridden uniforms, etc/

You should have a problem with the stupid people running the systems, not the systems itself.

PS: You probably have me on ignore by now.

Edit: picture fail

[edit on 18-8-2010 by Whyhi]

thanks jimmy carter and the department of education for the state of our current education in this country.....

3 cheers for carter hip hip NOT horray


get rid of the d.o.e.


and YEAH privatize education


do whatever it takes to get the government out of government education.


my 2 cents

reply to post by Whyhi


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1bb849e345f5.jpg[/atsimg]



[edit on 18-8-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


No, you said violently looting. I am willfully, and WANTING, to pay tax. I am not being shaken down.

You on the other hand, use someone who REFUSES to pay, and is handled accordingly. Again, I'd go out on a limb here and say if you don't pay taxes, you are not going to be experiencing the equivalent to a home invasion and robbery.

Every citizen has the responsibility to pay taxes, if he does not, he INITIATED the conflict by not doing what he was responsible for doing.

I hail a taxi, get my ride, and then I'm responsible for paying him. If I don't, I will suffer the consequences.

Originally posted by mnemeth1


In looking at the actual money spent, the US tops the charts.

More money is not the solution.

More government is not the solution.

Less government and more competition is the solution.

Actually, if you look at the statistics, the US pays relatively little per student compared to other countries.

Public Spending Per Student

The US ranks all the way down at #36.


Spending is not the great evil you seem to think it is. The problem is mismanaged spending, which the US has in droves. We mismanage our military to the point where our bloated budget tops other nations to an almost embarrassing scale. We have corporate interests controlling where spending does go, and surprise surprise, most of it ends up in the pockets of the CEO's.


As for your other point, I simply fail to see how competition (as a market force) could even be considered at the primary school level. Legally, every child must attend school through grades K-12. There is simply no room to cut out the massive education infrastructure and allow free market forces to dictate where and at what cost education would be available. It would mean taking millions of kids out of school. You think Americans are stupid now?


There are situations where reducing spending improves efficacy. Education is not one of them. It's not a coincidence that the wealthiest, happiest countries in the world provide a free ride to eligible college students. Our privatized system of higher education simply isn't working, and we are starting to realize it the hard way. Extending that failure into primary schools would be a disaster.

reply to post by drwizardphd


ok hiring morons to teach our kids are the problem


or maybe they are either too stupid or lazy to even bother to learn

hell why learn under the entitlement systems lets just give them all a diplomas.

or

hire better teachers
take away the xboxs,ps3s,iphone and limit their internet access,etc


like he said it aint a money issue.


since our educational system does produces morons to be blunt its a given that the teachers will be morons

so morons teaching morons produces more morons


now can you see how that works?

[edit on 18-8-2010 by neo96]

Originally posted by neo96


hire better teachers
take away the xboxs,ps3s,iphone and limit their internet access,etc


like he said it aint a money issue.

How exactly do you propose we hire better teachers when we can barely manage to pay teachers a living wage?

How exactly would you legislate 'taking away' personal electronic devices? That seems to me to be entirely the responsibility of the parents, and the state has no business dictating how parents raise their kids (aside from health issues and matters of abuse).

It very much is a money issue. Schools are under budget and faculties are stretched thin. Thanks to the absolutely retarded No Child Left Behind act, good schools are getting all the extra money, and poorer schools that desperately need the funding are quite literally left behind.

Again, I understand the desire to minimize public spending. However, education is the last thing that needs to be cut.

reply to post by drwizardphd


if you have problems paying teachers you have too many teachers.


common symptom in big state government... pay people a great wage for crap results- unions in general.


legislate? are you serious?


bad parenting or maybe not after sitting here and pondering why the educational systems is as flawed as it currently is....

i was thinking back to what was different in the 40s,50,60s,80s,90s....

bad parenting or no parenting the family dynmaic has changed a lot from the earlier decades..

mother and father at least one was around now either one or both are working these days and not to mention the single parent family has increases in these later decades and continue to increase.

so in my opinion its a combination of bad parenting or no parenting simple because they aren't around.



40s,50s,60s----> NO d.o.e+ mother/father=smart kids

70s,80s,90s,10s----> d.o..e+single parents=morons


combination of all of the above


[edit on 19-8-2010 by neo96]

reply to post by drwizardphd


I already explained why GDP comparisons are nonsense yet you keep bringing this up.

To quote your source on per-capita spending:

Public expenditure per student, primary level is the total reported current spending by the government on primary education, divided by the total number of pupils in primary education, expressed as a percentage of per capita GDP.

This is meaningless - the numbers cited ARE NOT REAL PER-CAPITA DOLLARS.

This is a GDP based comparison of spending.

Do you honestly believe that Lithuania spends 3.4 times the amount per student as the US does?

HELL NO THEY DON'T

At least not in terms of real dollars.

Lithuanian teachers would be driving around in Rolls Royces if that was the case.

Lithuanian military spending as a percentage of GDP is a paltry 1.8% - nearly 3 times less than our spending - is it purely coincidence that their per-capita education spending is 3 times higher in terms of GDP?

NO - IT IS NOT COINCIDENCE - ITS SIMPLE MATH.

If we negate out the non-productive government spending, which constitutes 40% of our GDP spending, and then add back in US education spending, the number would jump up off the charts in such a comparison.




[edit on 19-8-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by Whyhi

I am willfully, and WANTING, to pay tax. I am not being shaken down.

Ever think the reason that you aren't being shaken down is because you willfully pay taxes.

Again, I'd go out on a limb here and say if you don't pay taxes, you are not going to be experiencing the equivalent to a home invasion and robbery.

lol

Every citizen has the responsibility to pay taxes, if he does not, he INITIATED the conflict by not doing what he was responsible for doing.

The government initiated the conflict by forcing me to pay for their wars, their malfeasance, and their own systems of coercion. I never signed the declaration of independence. I do not accept this form of government as a government in my own interest or in the interest of the people altogether.

I am not cattle. I am not the property of anyone but myself.

I hail a taxi, get my ride, and then I'm responsible for paying him. If I don't, I will suffer the consequences.

This metaphor is fundamentally flawed. You assume, in the act of hailing the taxi, that the relationship that I have with the state is voluntary. In reality, the state works like this.

I hail a taxi and then a black van pulls up, guys with guns kidnap me, and drive me across town with a bag over my head and drop me off at a corner demanding I pay them for the transport. The entire point of the taxi is that I have a voluntary option for the services I wish to utilize. When the association with the transportation service is no longer voluntary, I lose all my power as a customer.

If what the government did was in the interest of the people, taxation would not have to be forced at the point of a gun. Taxes are compulsory because Americans would not pay voluntary taxes in this system that manages its resources so poorly and seeks to build a military empire all over the world.

Of course you think paying your taxes, even in the face of how poorly they are used, is your duty. You attended schools your whole developing life that told you exactly that.

reply to post by drwizardphd

According to UNICEF, the top 5 educated countries in the world are as follows: 1.South Korea
2.Japan
3.Finland
4.Canada
5.Australia

Ignoring for the time being that you are citing a U.N. report, let's just look at the facts about the five countries cited as being the most educated. You claim:

What do all of these countries have in common? Very strong public school systems.

However, here are some facts about each country and private schools:

1,) South Korea

Education in South Korea

The curriculum is often noted as rigorous, with as many as 11 or so subjects and most of the students choose to attend private academies called 학원 (學院, pronounced hagwon) to boost their academic performance.

Hagwon

Hagwon (Korean: 학원) (also hakwon hagweon and hakweon) is the Korean-language word for a for-profit private academy or institute prevalent in South Korea.

2.) Japan

Education in Japan

In Japan, education is compulsory at the elementary and lower secondary levels. Virtually all students progress to the upper secondary level, which is voluntary. Most students attend public schools through the lower secondary level, but private education is popular at the upper secondary and university levels. Japan's education system played a central part in Japan's recovery and rapid economic growth in the decades following the end of World War II.

Shools in Japan

A significant percent of Japanese students attend private high schools.

Japanese Schools

As the number of private schools increases (at present over one-quarter of senior high schools are private) and pressure to perform well increases, education ends up costing parents more and more. This pressure is slowly diffusing down the chain as entry to the best senior high schools is increasingly affected by the junior high school attended. Although not compulsory in Japan, over 90% of all children attend Senior High School.

3.) Finland

Education in Finland

There are few private schools. The founding of a new private comprehensive school requires a political decision by the Council of State. When founded, private schools are given a state grant comparable to that given to a municipal school of the same size. However, even in private schools, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited, and any private school must admit all its pupils on the same basis as the corresponding municipal school.

Schools in Finland

Even in the private schools in Finland the intake of tuition fees is strictly barred.

4.) Canada

Education in Canada

About 8% of students are in private schools[citation needed]. A minority of these are elite private schools. These schools are attended by only a small fraction of students, but do have a great deal of prestige and prominence.

It should be noted that Wikipedia has flagged this section of the article clarifying that it needs a citation to back up its bold claim that only about 8% of students are in private schools. Indeed, a site listing only Toronto Private Schools offers an extensive list of private schools in Toronto, and makes this claim:

There are numerous excellent private schools in Toronto and you are encouraged to fully explore all your options. When you search our listings of Toronto private schools below, click on each school to learn about features and programs at the school, view video of the facilities and more.

Another site lists the Top 25 Private Schools in Canada

about.com offers a list of 69 private schools in Ontario, which has a population of over 13 million and constitutes roughly 38.7% of Canada's population. There also seems to be a distinction made between private schools, and faith based private schools, as evidenced by this link here, which first makes this claim:

Most children in Canada attend public schools, although some attend private schools. Public schools do not charge school fees for children to attend and private schools do charge fees.

Then later makes this claim:

And there are many faith-based private school across Canada.

The same peculiarity can be found in the Wikipedia article cited earlier, that claimed only 8% of students attend private schools, but then makes this claim

Ontario has several private Jewish, Muslim, and Christian schools all funded through tuition fees.

Notably, this assertion was not flagged for needing a citation.

Ourkids.net has this to say about private schools in Canada:

For most parents, private school is about choice. Increasingly, parents from different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds across Canada are choosing independent and private school so that they can find the school that is perfect for their child. The top reasons parents choose private school include: dedicated teachers, academic quality, student encouragement, safety and quality of teachers. Private school allows their sons and daughters to become fully engaged in their academics and extracurricular activities, helping them discover their abilities and excel in their post secondary education.

Here is what Ourkids.net has to say about private school in British Columbia, Canada:

Private and independent schools are a well-established part of the education landscape in British Columbia. About 65,000 students attend BC private schools. The network of private and independent schools in BC offer a wide range of choice and diversity. Jewish, Mennonite, Montessori, Waldorf, Sikh, Seventh-day Adventist, special needs, First Nations, various Christian denominations as well as secular day and boarding schools offer a spectrum of choice to parents.

With a population of over 4 million people, however, obviously 65,000 students in private schools comes to a figure well under the general 8% estimated by the Wikipedia article. However, in stark contrast, a site listing the top private schools that lists well over 100 private schools as the top private schools in Calgary and the surrounding area, suggesting that private schools in Calgary are in much more demand than in British Columbia.

It is understandable that the Wikipedia article was flagged for a citation needed regarding the claim of 8%, and whatever the percentage of students attending private schools in Canada actually is, it is clear that private schools are very much a part of the educational system in Canada.

5.) Austraila

Private Schools in Australia

Private schools in Australia may be favoured for many reasons: prestige and the social status of the 'old school tie'; better quality physical infrastructure and more facilities (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, etc.), higher-paid teachers; and/or the belief that private schools offer a higher quality of education.

Here is what Australia-migration.com has to say about private schools:

In NSW, there are 3,092 schools, 902 of which are private schools, catering for all age groups from primary to high school. Many private schools are affiliated with church organisations. Boarding facilities are provided within many top schools and fees range from around A$2,000 to over A$20,000 a year.

NSW stands for New South Wales, which is Australia's most populace state.

The Independent Schools of Victoria claims to serve more than 100,000 students.

Given these statistics, it is arguable that 3 out of the five countries cited by UNICEF favor private schools greatly. I don't suppose UNICEF made that distinction, as I wouldn't know since you linked a CNN article that failed to offer a title to the report, and only stated it was a report issued by Innocenti Research Center in Italy. I Googled the Innocenti Research Center but the home page did not seem to offer this report, and while I attempted to click the links to both the research page and the publications page, they seem to be loading very slowly. Indeed, the publications page is still loading and no luck in producing a page! I am not having that problem with any other site, so I don't know what the problem is there.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Fighting statist misconceptions is hard work.

I applaud your research efforts.

Anything government tells us is bound to be a lie.

In the case of the education spending stats, UNESCO is the distortion spinning liar. They've published full papers on how to use GDP metrics as a way to distort actual per-capita spending to make it appear that government spending is the solution rather than the disease.

reply to post by mnemeth1



The research was well worth the effort as the privatization of anything is so incessantly demonized these days it is necessary to offer as many facts as possible to counter the constant statist propaganda.

I suffer no delusions, however, that statists will take the research seriously, and will only argue the points attempting to defend their position.

The U.N. is, in my opinion, a criminal mob organization and should not be trusted in any way shape or form.

Maybe you should sell off the education to private systems, so kids no longer worship democratically elected governments and instead worship the corporation which owns their new educational establishment. Maybe Walmart or some defense manufacturer would like to educate American children on the benefits of corporatism and how important wars are to the future of their education. Walmart could educate the kids about how best to budget the spending of their food vouchers.

In fact it wont be long until this is a reality in America

reply to post by mnemeth1


Yep, the perfect storm. Get the school system under private hands so that the next generation can be dumbed down so fast demand in markets for the most useless of things could spike.

Million things wrong with that idea and one example of that. Different private businesses will have different standards of learning and different curriculum so when does that leave the universities and their pre-requirements for entry? How on earth are american kids suppose to compete against outsiders? The answer is who gives a damn? The corporate can now dictate what your kids learn, which politicians they buy, the worlds their oyster right?

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Maybe you should spend a little less time spreading propaganda and pay attention to how corporatism is all ready taking over public shcools in The United States:

Bill Gates and the Corporatization of "Public" Schools:

Gates has spent almost a billion dollars influencing American public schools, and while his donations seem laudable on some fronts, especially in an era of increased federal demands coupled with reduced federal spending, his philanthropy remains problematic. When corporate leaders shape government institutions according to their needs, we move away from democracy and toward corporatism, a relative of, and arguably a precursor to, fascism.

Liberal Corporatism, Regulatory Cartelization, and the Permanent Warfare State:

As a corollary of this principle, the public was taught to "view doctoring oneself as irresponsible, learning on one's own as unreliable, and community organization, when not paid for by those in authority, as a form of aggression or subversion.

This general phenomenon, in which passive human raw material was managed by "service" bureaucracies, was described by Edgar Friedenberg as the "conscript clientele."

[Public school spending] is money spent providing goods and services to people who have no voice in determining what those goods and services shall be or how they shall be administered; and those who have no lawful power to withhold their custom by refusing to attend even if they and their parents feel that what the schools provide is distasteful or injurious.

They are provided with textbooks that, unlike any other work, from the Bible to the sleaziest pornography, no man would buy for his personal satisfaction. They are, precisely, not "trade books"; rather, they are adopted for the compulsory use of hundreds of thousands of other people by committees, no member of which would have bought a single copy for his own library.

... For example, the schools process human raw material to be taken over by the "human resources" bureaucracies of private industry (with the transition made as seamless as possible by the school-to-work movement), or by the bureaucracies of the welfare state and prison-industrial complex.

Ron Paul: Obama is another corporatist not a socialist:

corporatism has sponsored “public schools,” further encouraging its acceptance through consistent ratcheting down of education not just about our founding principles but absent clear thinking about economics and even personal finance, while ratcheting up the current mixture of pop culture and job skills training (e.g., school-to-work, no-child-left-behind, etc.). The vast majority of teenagers educated this way will not question the system; the few who do can be safely marginalized.

Corporatist pigs!

Consider Philadelphia's failed attempt to "privatize" education. The city hired the services of a supposedly private corporation called Edison to oversee it. All the schools were taken over by Edison and the city paid it to manage them. With no competition in sight and a guarantee of payment by the government regardless of performance, Edison's operation was completely inefficient, and it promptly failed.

The proponents of public education were ecstatic. They could say to the world, "See — we're open-minded. We tried using the market to educate children and it failed; capitalism failed." Wrong! Capitalism didn't fail; corporatism failed.

Capitalism works when government stays out of the way completely. In a free market, prices go down and quality goes up. Why? Because private companies are competing with one another for your dollars.

Explaining the Difference Between Capitalism and Corporatism to Micheal Mooore:

I find myself having to identify and explain the fundamental differences between capitalism and corporatism incessantly to everyone from shout-and-holler Bill Moyer lovers to scandalously sloppy PhD professors. Unfortunately, I tend to come across people, thanks to both misinformation and disinformation from school and the media, who are staggeringly impenetrable to valid, logical demonstrations. Arguing with some very easily becomes futile, hellishly so. Nevertheless, the distinction between capitalism and corporatism exists and it must be made public.

Scream your empty rhetoric of propaganda from the highest mountain tops, more and more people are waking up to the fact that self avowed socialists are desperate to equate corporatism to capitalism and will willfully ignore the facts every time and continue to blindly scream about the evils of capitalism, all the while pointing to corporatism. People know when they are being lied to, and nobody likes to be lied to.