Attention: There Is Already a Mosque Near the WTC Site

reply to post by Infinityobserver

While I have not studied them too deeply...Id have to disagree with your statement about Westboro.

If all the Muslims did was protest and not actually execute people, that I could see. Instead they are ACTUALLY executing people for homosexuality, rejecting Islam and things of that nature. If that's a fair comparison in your mind...ok.

Perhaps then we'll replace Westboro with the abortion clinic bombers, they were Christian and had every intention to cause death.

I think my point still stands - This is a particular sect. With a different ideology and behavior than Extremist Muslims.

[edit on 18-8-2010 by misinformational]

reply to post by americandingbat


In such situations the solution is simple. Go on fox news, which is where most of the for real bigots watch tv, and simply speak who you are in a major discussion. Like a half hour piece.

I've seen this happen before. The only recovery is to cast your whole life to the light. No secrets.

He refused to respond on matters when pressed on them. That's not exactly going to give you a good name.

Originally posted by Infinityobserver
While I have not studied them too deeply...Id have to disagree with your statement about Westboro.

If all the Muslims did was protest and not actually execute people, that I could see. Instead they are ACTUALLY executing people for homosexuality, rejecting Islam and things of that nature. If that's a fair comparison in your mind...ok.

Because the Middle East is the only place on the planet where Muslims live.

I mean, it's not like Islam is actually most populated in Asia, with many of the largest communities of Muslim's being in Asia.

Oh....wait. It is. Never mind, I was thinking just for a second someone opposing this Mosque had their facts straight but shame on me, I was a damn fool.

Originally posted by notsoperfect
reply to post by oozyism

 

Young children are very susceptible to suggestions. They do not have the ability to make a correct moral judgement. This is how the fundamental Moslems are using to make suicide bombers. Right or wrong for them means, most of the time, right for the provider of the shelter and food. People are not very far from animals in that respect, if you keep giving them food and water when the subject makes the choice and do the action you want, you can make them do whatever you want. When this was done in the name of Islam, the final result is obvious... you just made a suicide bomber.

Are you suggesting suicide bombing is wrong?

Unless they are killing civilians, I can argue that it is not wrong. That is a good debate isn't it?

Are you saying those who are thought in that manner can't think even when they grow old? That is BS. You have to prove that, you have to go and gather them around and investigate whether they have the ability to think or not.

I was thought a lot of things when I was a kid, I was even thought I could fly, and I believed it when I was a kid, I remember my dad promising to bring a pill when he got back home, which would allow me to fly.

You guys believe in Santa when you are kids, don't you? It is the same, you grow old, and start to think. When you are a kid, you just have that innocence which is the best time of anyone's life, without worry etc.

Don't blame kids for the problems of today, that is a shameful argument.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by americandingbat

 

In such situations the solution is simple. Go on fox news, which is where most of the for real bigots watch tv, and simply speak who you are in a major discussion. Like a half hour piece.

In this case I'm not sure the answer is in addressing the "for real bigots", though I agree with you that the project leaders need to be seen to make clear statements of who they are and why they want to build where they want to build by the public.

The Imam has been on Fox News in the past, though I haven't actually seen the piece.

I've seen this happen before. The only recovery is to cast your whole life to the light. No secrets.

There's actually quite a bit of information out there about his life, it's just not being presented by the news outlets and bloggers who are pushing this issue. This is a man who has spoken and written for years about the relationship of Islam and America, who has (along with his wife) been a leader for years of an Islamic non-profit that promotes the rights of women, who has consulted with the FBI on the problem of Islamic extremism, who has worked with the State Department since the Bush administration on Islamic relations.

The fact that the best slur on him those opposed to the mosque have come up with is that he hasn't condemned Hamas is telling in itself.

He refused to respond on matters when pressed on them. That's not exactly going to give you a good name.

If you mean the Hamas thing, he didn't refuse to respond. He has made his position clear in the past: he denounces suicide bombings and violence but will not be forced into taking a position on whether Hamas itself is a terrorist organization.

Seriously, rather than just say, oh you need to learn more about this subject. Why don't you address the statements directly.

Is the majority of conflict in the world right now not the result of spreading Islam?

Do the Muslim countries of the world tolerate other religions and place non-believers in the same category politically?

Do Muslims not believe that an era of peace will begin once the world is under Islamic control?

If the Islamic religion was soo peaceful it wouldn't have the massive terrorism problem it has. Why do the other religions not have that kind of problem with terrorism? Easy, because they don't believe that they have to control the world and spread Islam by any means necessary.

reply to post by americandingbat


I don't believe Hamas is a terrorist organization, what does that make me?

Are people judging me now?

It is funny how the word terrorism is only meant for Muslims lol..

There was a discussion about Mexico, and why the cartels are not called terrorists hahahahahahaahah. Then I felt it is true, that they only want Muslims to be terrorists lol..

The real breading grown for real terrorists and terrorism is in prisons, where bad is good, and good is bad, where terrorism gets you what you want.

Those poor Palestinians who are fighting against oppression, for someone to call them terrorist is a crime against humanity.

reply to post by SpectreDC


For real.....I really don't know what you're talking about. Muslims living in Asia or the Middle East, so what? Please elaborate on why I don't know what I'm talking about....then maybe I will understand what you are talking about....

reply to post by SpectreDC


Indonesia is the most populous Muslim nation in the world...

Most of Muslims are non-Arabs...

reply to post by oozyism




Hell, Iranians aren't even Arabs, they're Persians. Completely different languages, customs, and culture.

The stereotyping of the Muslim people is unbelievably widespread. It's analogous to stating that all Catholics are the same and live within similar culture.

Was going to mention that no one mentioned Africa. There's a map...pretty current, I guess...at this link and a breakdown by country.

www.factbook.net...

Just curious. Aren't there quite a few Christian churches in the Middle East?

Some seem to be under the assumption - - Christians don't live among Muslims in the Middle East.

I know there are specific areas of extreme Islam rule - - but I don't think that is the majority.

Originally posted by Infinityobserver
Seriously, rather than just say, oh you need to learn more about this subject. Why don't you address the statements directly.

Because after doing so since this story first broke I've noticed when I do this, people don't respond to me anymore.

Is the majority of conflict in the world right now not the result of spreading Islam?

Well lets see...

You have Africa, which is such a cluster# to blame any one thing responsible is just silly. But of all the things I can think of, Islam doesn't even hit the radar when it comes to conflict.

You have the situation in Palestine, which has nothing to to with the spreading of Islam and in fact Palestinians can't even be blamed for anything other than "Two wrongs don't make a right, guys".

You have Iraq, which....wait why were we there again?

And then there was Afghanistan, and we were there for G(Gold) O(Oil) and D(Drugs), or G.O.D for short.

Then you have North Korea, and last I checked Communists and Religion don't exactly jive together.

Honestly, outside of the tension in Europe with the spread of Islam, which I do think is rather extreme in the reaches fundamental Islam has there....the "Sread" of Islam isn't causing much conflict what so ever.

Do the Muslim countries of the world tolerate other religions and place non-believers in the same category politically?

Well firstly, if we're judging our own values based on the values of others and just making them sliiiiightly more tolerable than there's, America #ing sucks and humanity is lost. Too bad that this idea is retarded.

Secondly, it depends on which country. Many of the middle eastern countries are very fundamentalist in nature but there are many countries where Islam is the majority religious practice that has no fundamentalism in it what so ever.

Even the largest Muslim nations aren't too bad. Indonesia has it's problems but a majority of the country is tolerates other religions, have decent woman right records, etc.

India is very tolerable when it comes to both and India also has a significant Muslim population.

Do Muslims not believe that an era of peace will begin once the world is under Islamic control?

As do Christians and Jews. Buddhists and Hindu's don't give a # about that nonsense though.

Why do the other religions not have that kind of problem with terrorism?

You're putting Islam up against Judaism, which until the past couple of decades was so insignificant there was no problem, Christianity which for the most part took care of it's rage issue's during the middle ages (There were some pissed of Catholics that liked blowing # up though), and well...Buddhism and Hinduism.

Easy, because they don't believe that they have to control the world and spread Islam by any means necessary.

Apparently you don't know Christianity that well because it essentially believes this.

I honesty can't see why ground becomes sacred when someone is murdered on it. We would have to keep a whole lot of the country sacred and of course if it is your loved one who was killed you feel strongly, so if they were shot inside the mall maybe the mall should be removed and sanctified. I hate all the little shrines along our highway where people make the place their loved one died a public shrine, we have graveyards for that.
Make a shrine for those murdered in the towers and let us get on with our lifes! We have always taught equal rights is the thing to strive for in the USA, freedom calls for letting people of all races and religions to do their thing.
The sad thing is now every stupid politician is making this a political thing, so very childish, I wish we had some grown-ups to run the country and run for office! Can't people see they are just playing us! Bah

reply to post by Char-Lee


The point is, people have been killed by Jews, Muslim, Christians, Gays, Blacks, Whites, Indian Americans, Mexicans.... In New York..

Let's slowly restrict their rights

This is not a debate, this is a distraction..

I can't believe people still don't see this..

reply to post by americandingbat


many people go to news for many reasons. He has to go for a massive interview to clear his name on the specific topics of it. In Brittan they have whole discussion boards on TV and I can't help but think they've got the right idea going on these matters. Here we get a couple of folks on a committee deciding and not much else.

I could say the same for Pat Robertson on many issues. People change their opinions and many bad people do good things. I cannot trust somebody who makes a blank statement on an obviously bad issue.

There are people out there who post themselves as good and for the most part say good and righteous things but whom deep down desire something contrary to what they say. Pat Robertson is an excellent example of such people. I have met and talked with many very peaceful and normal Muslims but once you get into the topic of Hamas they immediately take sides as id their side can do no wrong. The same is true with many Jews. This is what worries me the most. This type of person. The type of person who in every manner of speaking is an ideal citizen, but whom have one issue that they advocate and will preach and indoctrinate hate on. I've seen it done in places as young as my grammar school and I could see right off the bat what they were doing. They were trying to indoctrinate us. I've heard worse from my atheist friend who talked about how the Sunday schools flat out lied about condoms and sexuality and gender roles. It was quite sad. People that are nothing short of brilliant, but spewing hate on one little topic.

Ultimately that's what I view him as based on the data available. I'm sure like those Sunday school leaders, Pat Robertson, and grammar school teachers that they are ideal upstanding citizens. But that one thing that they spew such shocking hate on is enough to simply forget about their goodness elsewhere.

will not be forced into taking a position on whether Hamas itself is a terrorist organization.

Perfect example. I'd be hard pressed to find local people from where I live willing to call Israel's tactics barbaric. Their side can do no harm almost. It sickens me. If you are not willing to call out murderers as you see them, what becomes acceptable a generation down the road?

reply to post by Annee


Yes they are. Many of them ran away to where I live because the the barbarians known as the IDF and Hamas bombing everything.

I buy the occasional relic from them.

reply to post by SpectreDC


All you have done is excuse Muslims and danced around the statements. You left out conflicts where Muslims ARE the aggressor. You try to justify the actions of others by saying hey who are we to judge. That's true, who am I to say you shouldn't kill people for following a different faith. I think you also missed part about COUNTRIES UNDER ISLAMIC CONTROL.

I never said the other religions are perfect. In fact in my original post I made clear my position on religion. Keep dancing...






[edit on 18-8-2010 by Infinityobserver]

reply to post by Gorman91

Perfect example. I'd be hard pressed to find local people from where I live willing to call Israel's tactics barbaric. Their side can do no harm almost. It sickens me. If you are not willing to call out murderers as you see them, what becomes acceptable a generation down the road?

Give him a break, think about it, he called the desperate tactics terrorism, but to call the whole resistance organization terrorist is a crime against humanity.

Every group at desperate times use desperate means, that doesn't make them terrorists, that makes them desperate. When you are left hungry with absolute no other means of feeding yourself, you will resort to stealing, that doesn't make you a thief, that makes you desperate.

Terrorists are criminals roaming the streets, the gangs, the cartels, who terrorize people in to submission.

That is not what Hamas is about, Hamas wants freedom from Israel, and wants the oppression and the settlement expansion to stop.

It used terrorism not because it had guided missiles, or Jets, or Tanks, or Helicopters, or Drones, or War Ships, or Satellites, they used terrorism when there was no hope left, when they had no other options, just like that thief which had no other option left to feed him/herself.

Now that they have home made fire works, instead of suicide bombings, they use home made fireworks. The problem with these home made fireworks is that they are not guided, and they don't go towards their target. Next when they have missiles, they will use them to attack the military, not the civilians.

I keep asking the same question and it keeps getting ignored, deflected, or simply left unanswered. So I will frame it a bit differently.

There are sects of Muslims and individual Muslims in the world who do preach, encourage, incite, plan, and commit violence. That has been established and I will not deny it.

This Imam has stated in the past that he rejects and condemns all violence committed in the name of religion, and has stated that his mission is to eradicate terror, and the association with terror, from the religion of Islam. When presented with this fact, people are referencing his so-called refusal to choose a particular ethical stance on a particular conflict (Hamas/Israel) as evidence that he may be biased. I respect people's opinions that this creates cause for suspicion of his motives and agendas, and will even allow that, yes, it is absolutely possible that he is biased (as are most of us politically and ethically, ultimately) in this matter. None of that answers my question, though.

My point, and the question I have yet to receive an answer for, is this: Is there any proof, anywhere, that anyone has, that this particular group of people who happen to be Muslim are going to be taking part in, protecting, or encouraging the radical/militant/violent actions people base those suspicions on, in this particular, specific, individual case?

Because you see, unless the answer to that question is "yes," then according to the constitution, it doesn't matter (apart from non-legal concerns such as personal disapproval) whether he goes on TV and denounces what some seem insistent that he denounce, or that he refuses to form or express a firm, clearly delineated opinion with respect to the status of Hamas as a terrorist organization. All that matters, legally, constitutionally, is whether or not he, his followers, or anyone he shelters, financially supports, provides material support to, etc. are planning, threatening, or carrying out acts of violence or other unlawful acts. As long as he isn't doing any of those things, then he has a right to hold a neutral opinion of Hamas, whether we agree with him or not, and that opinion alone is not (empirical, legal) proof of him being a criminal or a supporter of terrorism.

So can anyone please give me a yes or no answer to my question?

[edit on 8/18/2010 by AceWombat04]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Gorman91

 

That is not what Hamas is about, Hamas wants freedom from Israel, and wants the oppression and the settlement expansion to stop.

This is what I mean by deceitful! You're flat out lying. Hamas doesn't want "freedom" from Israel they want "the replacement of Israel". If freedom was all they wanted, they would have had it, at least TWICE by now....