End Time Prophecy: Why Defend Israel When God Does Not?

Sup, yallz. First off, I need to say that this is in no way an Israel-bashing thread. Although I may not agree with their policies towards the Palestinians, or even the existence of a state justified soley, IMO, by religion, this thread has nothing to do with that. What this thread IS about however, is the die-hard support of God's supposedly "chosen people" by Christians even in the face of evidence that show a history of human rights abuses and a falling away of the principles their religion was supposedly founded on. In the same Bible Christians use to justify their support of Israel, their God, it seems, has a different view of Israel as the supposed "end-times" draw more near:

Ezekiel 11:2 And YAHWEH said to me, "son of humanity, these are the men who devise iniquity and who give wicked counsel in this city;
Ezekiel 11:6 You have multiplied your slain in this city, and have filled its streets with the slain.
Ezekiel 11:7 Therefore thus says YAHWEH GOD: Your slain whom you have laid in the midst of it, they are the flesh, and this city is the caldron; but you shall be brought forth out of the midst of it.
Ezekiel 11:11 This city shall not be your caldron, nor shall you be the flesh in the midst of it; I will judge you at the border of Israel;
Ezekiel 11:12 and you shall know that I am YAHWEH; for you have not walked in my statutes, nor executed my ordinances, but have acted according to the ordinances of the nations of the world."

Ezekiel 20:34 I will bring you out from the nations and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out;
Ezekiel 20:42 And you shall know that I am YAHWEH, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the country which I swore to give to your fathers.
Ezekiel 20:43 And there you shall remember your ways and all the doings with which you have polluted yourselves; and you shall loathe yourselves for all the evils that you have committed.
Ezekiel 20:47 say to the forest of the Negeb, Hear the word of YAHWEH: Thus says YAHWEH GOD, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you and every dry tree; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from south to north shall be scorched by it.
Ezekiel 20:48 All flesh shall see that I YAHWEH have kindled it; it shall not be quenched."

Ezekiel 22:2 "And you, son of humanity, will you judge, will you judge Jerusalem that bloody city, and bring home to her all her abominable deeds.
Ezekiel 22:3 You shall say, Thus says YAHWEH GOD: Woe betide that city that sheds blood in the midst of her, that her time may come, and that makes idols to defile herself!
Ezekiel 22:4 You have become guilty by the blood which you have shed, and defiled by the idols which you have made; and you have brought your day near, the appointed time of your years has come. Therefore I have made you a reproach to the nations, and a mocking to all the countries.
Ezekiel 22:5 Those who are near and those who are far from you will mock you, you infamous one, full of tumult.
Ezekiel 22:6 "Behold, the princes of Israel in you, every one according to his power, have been bent on shedding blood.
Ezekiel 22:7 Father and mother are treated with contempt in you; the sojourner suffers extortion in your midst; the fatherless and the widow are wronged in you.
Ezekiel 22:8 You have despised my holy things, and profaned my sabbaths.
Ezekiel 22:9 There are men in you who slander to shed blood, and men in you who eat upon the mountains; men commit lewdness in your midst.

Ezekiel 22: 18 "son of humanity, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them, silver and bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace, have become dross.
Ezekiel 22: 19 Therefore thus says YAHWEH GOD: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 22:20 As men gather silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire upon it in order to melt it; so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you.
Ezekiel 22:21 I will gather you and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it.
Ezekiel 22:22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it; and you shall know that I YAHWEH have poured out my wrath upon you."
Ezekiel 22: 25 Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured human lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in the midst of her.
Ezekiel 22: 26 Her priests have done violence to my law and have profaned my holy things; they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they taught the difference between the unclean and the clean, and they have disregarded my sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.
Ezekiel 22: 27 Her princes in the midst of her are like wolves tearing the prey, shedding blood, destroying lives to get dishonest gain.
Ezekiel 22: 28 And her prophets have daubed for them with whitewash, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says YAHWEH GOD,' when YAHWEH has not spoken.
Ezekiel 22: 29 The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery; they have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the foreigner without redress.
Ezekiel 22: 30 And I sought for a person among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found none.
Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore I have poured out my indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath; their way have I requited upon their heads, says YAHWEH GOD."

I understand this entire post is pretty much quotes from the Bible, but that’s the whole point. It seems many religious people are more swayed by the opinions of their pastors, political leaders, and communities than they are by the actual words of the God they follow. I have nothing what-so-ever against religious people, and I don’t want this to become a thread about the existence of God, the validity of religion, or the bashing of those who choose a religious path in life. My only question to those Christians who defend Israel’s actions is this:

If God didn’t defend them, why should you?
edit: if this is in the wrong topic, pls move it thx

[edit on 17-8-2010 by mooseinhisglory]

Here is the article that inspired me to bring this up:

altenet.org

If you're on the fence about what is happening over there, it's always safe to turn to ol' Noam Chomsky for advice in my opinion. Gets the facts straight and leaves out the bull pucky.

The history is reasonably clear. This was not the case up until 1967. In fact, before 1967, the relationships were not very different from relationships among other powers. There was sympathy and support for Israel, which has many, many sources, including the Christian Zionism, which is a very powerful force that precedes and is numerically far stronger than Jewish Zionism. But for somebody like, say, Harry Truman, raised in a deeply Christian tradition, it was just taken for granted that the Bible instructs us that God gave the land of Palestine to the Jews. So it is kind of like in his bones. And that’s true for a very large part of the American population, much more so than -- far more than any other country. So that is one factor, and there are other factors.

But the major change in relationships took place in 1967. Just take a look at USA aid to Israel. You can tell that right off. And in many other respects, it’s true, too. Similarly, the attitude towards Israel on the part of the intellectual community -- you know, media, commentary, journals, and so on -- that changed very sharply in 1967, from either lack of interest or sometimes even disdain, to almost passionate support. So what happened in 1967?

Well, in 1967, Israel destroyed the source of secular Arab nationalism -- Nasser's Egypt -- which was considered a major threat and enemy by the West. It is worth remembering that there was a serious conflict at that time between the forces of radical Islamic fundamentalism, centered in Saudi Arabia -- where all the oil is -- and secular Arab nationalism, centered in Nasser's Egypt; in fact, the two countries were at war. They were fighting a kind of a proxy war in Yemen at that time. The United States and Britain were supporting the radical Islamic fundamentalism; in fact, they’ve rather consistently done that – supporting Saudi Arabia. And Nasserite secular nationalism was considered a serious threat, because it was recognized that it might seek to take control of the immense resources of the region and use them for regional interest, rather than allow them to be centrally controlled and exploited by the United States and its allies. So that was a major issue.

edit: to add quote

[edit on 17-8-2010 by mooseinhisglory]

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


?? End Time ??

i thought ezekiel was about the coming destruction of jerusalem in 597BC
and the captivity in babylon... swee wikipedia:

The Book of Ezekiel was written for the captives of the tribe of Judah living in exile in Babylon following the Siege of Jerusalem of 597 BC. Up until that exile, their custom had been to worship their God in the Temple in Jerusalem. Exile raised important theological questions. How, the Judeans asked, could they worship their God when they were now in a distant land? Was their God still available to them? Ezekiel speaks to this problem. He first explains that the Judean exile is a punishment for disobedience and he then offers hope to the exiles, suggesting that the exile will be reversed...

the 2012 era, or the 70th week of Daniel is about the actual 'End Time'
this isn't... its about the Jews and other Israelite people being conquered & taken captive because they disintegrted their moral base & religion..
& was getting punished back then not this present age

no offense but I would highly suggest you not lump
ALL Christians into your support Israel conspiracy.
I do not support Israel cuz I think zionism has taken over
and needs to be rooted out to make Israel whole
again. They have strayed from the path of God once again
through corruption and moral desecration.
If they were to serve the same God that I do, they
would not do the evil things they do in God's name.
Israel needs a moral and religious cleansing and Bible
prophecy foretells that is gonna happen when they
are pushed out of Israel to the south. God will give
them a second chance. But right now, they do not
follow God's will.

Didn't realize this was about a past event, my bad! A christian buddy of mine was using prophecies out of ezekial to prove that prophecies come to pass all the time, so I was mis-lead.
Apologies for the confusion.

Also, to the second poster, I never said all christians. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough for you. I tried so hard to make this post non-threatening but apparantly people misunderstood anyways. Anywho, its a moot point because I was wrong and ill be the first to admit it!

PEACE
Edit: spelling

[edit on 17-8-2010 by mooseinhisglory]

I am not a fan of Israel full stop, I recently spoke to a co worker who had recently visited Gaza and returned to Israel. She said that once the guards saw the gifts such as necklaces and bracelets the Palestinians had given her, she was stripped searched and the gifts destroyed. She saw proud old women being forcibly stripped searched by the pig guards and her friend told her one of the women was saying she would be happier to be killed that stripped in front of such large crowds. I know this is a bit off topic but to be honest bring on the destruction, they have became the very Nazis that tried to destroy them and the way they treat the world is a measure of distain and insolence. I would love to see America and Britain turns its back on Israel and watch Iran and Syria destroy them for good. I am saying this as a disgusted Christian who is sick of their rhetoric and excuses.

Regarding the biblical quotes I would agree you have the location right but are out by about 1500 years

reply to post by On the level

Dang, man, that's a crazy story. I've heard reports about happenings like that, and honestly that's what makes it so hard for me to get on board with Israel's cause. Funny thing is that after I read some prophecies the first poster refered to, and a little revelations, it pretty much states that Israel would be in the same position at the "end-times" (which, to be honest, I'm not confident will actually take place). The creation of a "new jerusalem" at the very least implies there is something wrong with the one currently on this Earth.
Anywho, thank you for your story. Issues like this can only really be understood by people who have been there or those who are closely related to those who have been there.
PEACE.

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


The main fact that cannot be ignored is that Palestinians are made up of 35% Christians, they are not the islamic terrorists that the Zionists make them out to be. I do believe for the record that we are entering the end of all the sorry mess, I dont invest much in biblical prophesies however what cannot be doubted is that the pieces on the chess board are moving and Israel is surrounded

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


The main fact that cannot be ignored is that Palestinians are made up of 35% Christians, they are not the islamic terrorists that the Zionists make them out to be. I do believe for the record that we are entering the end of all the sorry mess, I dont invest much in biblical prophesies however what cannot be doubted is that the pieces on the chess board are moving and Israel is surrounded

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


The main fact that cannot be ignored is that Palestinians are made up of 35% Christians, they are not the islamic terrorists that the Zionists make them out to be. I do believe for the record that we are entering the end of all the sorry mess, I dont invest much in biblical prophesies however what cannot be doubted is that the pieces on the chess board are moving and Israel is surrounded

I believe that portions of Ezekiel are prophetic...and that God will defend Israel. In fact, God says He will defend Israel even though they do not deserve it... but because He promised it.

Ezekiel 38-39 speaks of such a defense from a massive invasion by the surrounding countries in a coalition that up till now has not existed, but does now as the Collective Security Treaty organization....CSTO....loosley based on NATO.

Oddly enough it includes Russia, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Ethiopia, Lybia, and eventually Turkey.

Read it and you will find that Israel, by way of God, survives and prospers...as tourists later find bodies and left overs missed from the cleanup that followed...but they couldn't touch the bodies. That was reserved for specially trained teams, specially clothed, and the remains were taken down wind of Israel.... aftermath of a nuclear engagement?

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


Because of "Israel's" unbelief, God disowned her ,for a time (Hosea).
Israel is actually the 12 tribes (sons): Reuben, Simeon,Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulon, Gad, Asher, Dan, Naphtali, Joseph and Benjamin.
Yahweh did keep a blessing upon Judah. He also promised to watch over
Jerusalem, His city.
God also pronounced an edict on the ancient Israelites: that they would
no longer pronounce his name. Which they don't to this day. In the Old
Testament; it used to be .."As The Lord liveth",.....Blessed is he who comes in the name of The Lord.
Most Jewish people today become offended at Christians who do use
the name of The Lord, or who actually say God's names. Perhaps it
is an ancient collective guilt that causes the resentment and/or hostility;
or perhaps they have just blindly accepted the teachings of the 'rabbi's".
We are commanded to Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. God loves
His people. The Jews were chosen to keep and hold the Laws of God.
Because of the many sins (that you quoted from Ezekiel), and others,
God must in His holy judgment and righteousness, forbear from showing
them His utter Glory and Holiness until they totally accept him.
But He will not forsake them totally.
In this space of time (until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled), we who
are grafted in are shown His Grace and mercy. Knowing that in the end,
Israel will be given one last final chance at redemption, we must continue
to show the love that God has for His first choice.