Please go back and read this whole 8 page thread and come up with something new, other than the whole "bush cant talk right" crap.

We already have enough wasted space on that here...anything new to offer or is this just the same intangible and opinionated speculations drummed up by those that cant seem to find something solid to use their hate for?

Originally posted by CazMedia
When presented with the truth, 27jd's arguments crumble to whiney liberal rants with no substance and all opinion!!! Typical opinionated un-educated, willing to believe whatever the snake-oil salesman is selling as long as it fits with their close minded "get Bush" rhetoric. Run along 27jd, keep spreading the un-informed mis-representations of reality to the brain dead couch potatos that will believe all this crap with out question.

You seem to pride yourself on education, something you seem to be lacking. I'm not a liberal, and sorry to tell you, but you're the one who has purchased the snake-oil. I will run along, and spread the word of a USA that will be respected and will be a positive force in the world again to those who are open-minded enough not to eat what is spoon-fed to them by this administration. Open wide CazMedia! Don't get too much Bu# on your bib.

The rest of the world can kiss my AMERICAN butt!

You're ignorance knows no bounds. This attitude you display proves me correct more than any of your so-called "facts" ever could. Thank you so much for affirming my "un-informed misrepresentations". And to the rest of the world, I apologize for the ignorance of CazMedia, who by no means represents the views or opinions of most of America, just a sad brainwashed minority made up of an ignorant few who have no idea how much we depend on the rest of the world. Hopefully in November this nightmare will end and we will re-forge our alliances and work towards the future of Earth, not just America.

Exactly which sources would you find acceptable.

There are no sources I would find acceptable, I don't have to read anything to know the damage this administration has done to our country. I'm not interested in reading anybody else's opinions on paper. I live in this country, I have witnessed first hand its downward spiral. I guess I'm just not as easily convinced as you are by what I read.

You are entitled to have an opinion and express it.

Unless it differs from yours, right? Then its time to blindly and relentlessly defend Bush with so-called "facts". Keep defending little buddy, I'm sure theres a place in Bush's administration for you, but you'll only be employed til next year. Better start looking for a new job now.

Still think Santa Clause is comming to town?

No, I don't think Santa is "comming" to town. Certainly not to any of Bush's homes. I don't think launching pre-emptive wars on countries that are already contained qualifies as being a "good boy".

I'll choose to look at the facts and then make an assesment instead of just giving blind belief because i need to feel "right" about an issue.

Good for you, you must be gifted to be able to be sure that the "facts" you look at are just that, and not just biased propaganda. And it is wreckless to assume you should believe anything another person tells you, even if it goes against your feelings.

My biggest gripe is not with Bush or Kerry, but with the VOTERS, and the often non issue related drivel that they cling to like the gospel.
We the people need to do better before we can expect the same from our officials.

You should probably not worry so much about what other voters think, and worry about your own future on this planet. Telling the whole world to kiss your AMERICAN butt is not a good way to keep allies in a time when we need them most. Once again I am tired of this discussion, keep talking about "facts", cling to THEM like gospel, and like Sauron stated, create a "why I love Bush" thread. I will not respond again, we have stated our opinions, its time to open the thread to others.




[edit on 11-8-2004 by 27jd]

I dont really hate Bush, or Kerry for that matter.

I look at both of them and most of our elected officals for that matter as the symptiom not the disease.

The disease being the system we have in place right now, the two party system.

The cure is IMO taking place right now and that is people tiring of the same-o BS coming out of Washington and joining other parties, like the Libertarians and the Greens.

Until the power is taken away from the big two we will not see anything change

27jd says,

You seem to pride yourself on education, something you seem to be lacking.

Where was this pride demonstrated? Why cant you stick to the points in question? First you try to divert attention from your weak arguments by attacking my spelling/grammer, now your up to assaulting me on a percieved educational basis with your first sentance. Why dont you address my questions instead of addressing me?

DO NOT PRESUME TO APPOLOGIZE FOR ME! YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!
Ill say it again...the rest of the world can kiss my American butt.
I say this not out of arrogance, as i am fully aware that America does not exist in a vacume. Yes Allies are important and nessisary. Of course working WITH other nations is better that trying to walk alone....
BUT
NOONE in any other nation was elected to keep the interests of the USA FIRST! While it would be best if things were always nice between allies, this is not reality. I expect that anyone in a leadership position here in the USA government had better be putting American interests first, above the interests of other nations if need be...that is the job they are there to do...weather it ruffles feathers or not.

27jd again rants,

Telling the whole world to kiss your AMERICAN butt is not a good way to keep allies in a time when we need them most.

Hmm you mean like our allies FRANCE and GERMANY, that were in cohoots with saddam on the food for oil rippoff scam? The ones that were profitting from illegal dealings with a dictator they publicly denounced, yet secretly they funneled millions around the sanctions THEY helped put into place, and saddams personal coffers (not iraq's) grew.
Some allies we need to keep eh...lie to our face and profit under the table.
with friends like these....

27jd runs his mouth,

There are no sources I would find acceptable, I don't have to read anything to know the damage this administration has done to our country. I'm not interested in reading anybody else's opinions on paper. I live in this country, I have witnessed first hand its downward spiral. I guess I'm just not as easily convinced as you are by what I read.

Its soo nice to hear that your little solo view of this nation is the only one that you use as referance. So i need to live where you do so that I too can take in the totallity of America from your one vantage point. Youve stated that you dont have to read stuff for information, and that even if you did, you would question the validity of ANY source....so how informed are you really then, discounting information because you dont have to read it in order to "know" the reality of your perspective? Sounds like a closed and sealed mind if you ask me. At least im willing to consider other information before i deem it good/bad. You just skip to the judgments without consideration, congrats on your level of denial of ignorance!

You are entitled to your OPINIONS, but again, you fail to back up your allegations....here in the USA, your innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof in on the ACCUSER....You leveled allegations which were questioned, its not up to me to dis-prove you by asking for clarifications from you, Its up to you to back up your rhetoric.

You have avoided just about all of my points, and instead focused attentions on the messenger instead of the message....you have not offered one serious, non emotive, somehow based in any scrap of info, counter to one of my points. I guess that would be had to do as you dont accept ANY other referance materials, nor do you read them to know to use them...rant on, just dont think people will give you any credibillity because youve offered zero.

27jd says the best thing ive heard him say,

I will not respond again,

Bu-bye!
(i suspect he wont be able to NOT respond again) LOL.

[edit on 16-8-2004 by CazMedia]

Why oh why do they hate bush, well lemme think....


Maybe it's due to his librul attutudes?

Or his boundless generosity?

His wonderfully caring approach to the environment maybe?

Got it... its his love for freedom and democracy, must be....

First off I don't "hate" bush....I don't hate anyone. Takes too much energy to hate that could best be used elsewhere. That said, I don't not like his policies or his thought process, and he certainly isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.... I also have a problem with people that vote republican or democrat because they "are" republican or democrat. I think it's a bit like sticking your head in the sand and following blindly. While I am registered as a democrat, I vote for which ever party is the lesser of two running evils...

Originally posted by 27jd
...I DON'T CARE IN THE LEAST IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT! I HAVE TO SPEAK FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO IGNORANT TO SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!

There's an ideology that scares me...

27jd,

As for you trying to say I resort to name calling, and of all people you use Arkaleus to demonstrate this

Hmm, so what was the use of terms directed twords me like, lapdog, ignorant, and sheep to describe me then? Terms of endearment? A friendly nickname?
Arks arguments or style, even the "what" he was talking about are irrelavent to the point that i made about your debate style.
Indeed he might have been abusive as well, but does that give anyone else license to do the same? I used myself as the first example of a member asking you to hit the points, not the person, and happened to see another member ask the same of you, within days of my situation. I found this both conveinant and poingnent. (most likley spelled wrong)

MOST importantly, switching from debating someones points to attacking them personally is really a red flag that says, "i cant counter him so ill divert atention". a very weak and see thru argument. (go on, wack my spelling/grammar....i have writters and editors to clean up nitpicky details likethat, and live on my spell checker which ATS doesnt have)

27jd says,

I don't see where you get off demanding "proof" of somebodies opinion.

Its not so much a "proof" issue as it is holding up a mirror and asking that person to consider the source. I wonder in amazement how some people can form such wacky ideas sometimes based on WHAT?
There is nothing wrong with asking for validation of an OPINION, especially when its being touted as a FACT.

It is not my job to defend any politician, and in fact if i could obtain PROOF of misdeeds, I would love to page#1 burn them in a heart beat, Bush included...yet so far, NOONE has come up with ANYTHING actionable to impeach, remove, or otherwise say Bush did something illegal; yet the threads are full of such wishful fantasies.

Go back an reread all 9 pages of this thread, i dont think ive attempted to defend Bush on any point, i HAVE asked those leveling silly allegations to explain where this idea comes from so that either I can learn and understand, or to hold up a mirror and say..."you actually are casting your vote based on that opinion, when facts might indicate otherwise?" or at least when the facts dont seem to support the allegation? Or there are NO facts at all, just hyped hearsay and gossip?

27jd,

I never said I didn't read, I just said I don't need to read something to FORM AN OPINION

Indeed you dont, but then dont get bent out of shape if someone questions "how informed a view is that", or "where did that idea come from".

27jd,

you asked me to PROVE things like Bush engaged in corrupt business dealings, and like I said you would, you stated the sources I provided were biased, which they were, but does that mean they are lying?

It all comes down to a matter of credibillity...while there might not be the smoking gun, people can infer things....but how did they infer them is open to question....why, when you know youve been asked to clarify a point, would you discredit your argument by putting up a BIASED source you know would be questioned? (many cant see bias past their anti-bush zeal, and indeed would use such a source, which only validates a lack of objectivity, and willingness to stick their heads into the sand up to their ass)

In this thread it has been alledged "Bush is a desreter" while ill agree he might have gotten special treatment, his honorable discharge means he in no way way guilty of desertion.
yet some will cling to their opinions on this even when shown the discharge paper. (in effect)

This is why im in this thread, not to defend bush, but to sort out the myth from the reality on him.
You alledge corruption or illegal busines dealings, i say ok, show me the charges, or explain why he hasnt been busted for these allegations?
would you prefer that i deny ignorance by just taking your word for it, or can you show something that supports this opinion.

It seems in blind zeal to "get Bush", the people are willing to believe in anything.
If you want my swing vote to go to "anyone but Bush", then show me some REAL reasons, not trumped up hype....that is why people ask for something credible to back opinions.

This is why im still on this thread 9 pages later, ive seen little other than Bush as a rich person from a powerful family seems to get "favors", or somehow skirts things....well what would you expect from ANY connected, powerful, wealthy family? DUH! But thats not policy reasons, thats not tangible enough for me to condem him with.

Look at slanks allegations from a few posts back, a very good attempt at providing SOMETHING more tangible to hate him on.
YET,
this seems like mostly cronyism at best....like any political regiem, dem or rep doesnt engauge in this? why would we be surprised. When Kerry gets into office, lets pick apart all his apointees and see whos scratching whoms back....i think we'll find the same.

Also something to consider is, exactly how many people with the know how, or the experiance with things like managing a huge multinational energy company do you think walk the streets? Mabey a handful here in the USA? It seems silly that people are amazed when we see "insiders" getting to play the game....do you think any of us will get to play? no, why? because wearent involved in the same capasity that these others are...we dont have the same skills, knowledge to even begin to play at this level

Hey slank, dont forget that Colin Powells son is head of the FCC with no experiance...

Slank says,

It was passed by Democrats and Republicans over Clinton's veto.

So here we are on a HATE BUSH thread,trying to pin something from the clinton era, done by congress on bush HOW?

Another perfect example of what are you thinking?



[edit on 24-8-2004 by CazMedia]

I for one cannot wait for this election to be over. Don't know what it was like in the past but this seems really personal.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Hmm, so what was the use of terms directed twords me like, lapdog, ignorant, and sheep to describe me then? Terms of endearment? A friendly nickname?

It's done out of love! NOT!

Arks arguments or style, even the "what" he was talking about are irrelavent to the point that i made about your debate style.

Caz, you have no sense of humor at all, do you?

Indeed he might have been abusive as well, but does that give anyone else license to do the same? I used myself as the first example of a member asking you to hit the points, not the person, and happened to see another member ask the same of you, within days of my situation. I found this both conveinant and poingnent. (most likley spelled wrong)

I've stopped the attacks on your grammar, now your just attacking yourself.

MOST importantly, switching from debating someones points to attacking them personally is really a red flag that says, "i cant counter him so ill divert atention". a very weak and see thru argument. (go on, wack my spelling/grammar....i have writters and editors to clean up nitpicky details likethat, and live on my spell checker which ATS doesnt have)

You won't allow anybody to counter, when I give a source of reference, you will attack the credibility of the source, which in my opinion is just another way to divert attention from the argument. It's a catch 22.

Its not so much a "proof" issue as it is holding up a mirror and asking that person to consider the source. I wonder in amazement how some people can form such wacky ideas sometimes based on WHAT?

Holding up a mirror? I did not write any of the articles I provided you. Whether you choose to accept them or not is up to you. Sure one can say they may be bias, but they provide facts, now it's up to you to prove they are lying. Almost all media is bias in one way or another, who would disagree with that? Some of us choose to believe independent journalists over big media journalists, who I have provided a reference pointing out the right wing bias of, and you have not addressed that.

There is nothing wrong with asking for validation of an OPINION, especially when its being touted as a FACT.

Please point out where I touted my opinion as fact.

It is not my job to defend any politician, and in fact if i could obtain PROOF of misdeeds, I would love to page#1 burn them in a heart beat, Bush included...yet so far, NOONE has come up with ANYTHING actionable to impeach, remove, or otherwise say Bush did something illegal; yet the threads are full of such wishful fantasies.

Once again I provided a reference to the right wing bias of the media, you have not addressed those facts, you know full well you do not decide what will be a page #1 burn.

Ideed you dont, but then dont get bent out of shape if someone questions "how informed a view is that", or "where did that idea come from".

Once again I have provided plenty of points of reference, are you telling us what we should believe? ESPECIALLY coming from a member of the mainstream media?

It all comes down to a matter of credibillity...while there might not be the smoking gun, people can infer things....but how did they infer them is open to question....why, when you know youve been asked to clarify a point, would you discredit your argument by putting up a BIASED source you know would be questioned? (many cant see bias past their anti-bush zeal, and indeed would use such a source, which only validates a lack of objectivity, and willingness to stick their heads into the sand up to their ass)

Like I've stated over and over, it comes down to the information we take in (from whichever biased source we choose to believe, because they all are) and intuition, one who only bases there opinions on one or the other solely, is not denying ingnorance.

In this thread it has been alledged "Bush is a desreter" while ill agree he might have gotten special treatment, his honorable discharge means he in no way way guilty of desertion.
yet some will cling to their opinions on this even when shown the discharge paper. (in effect)

Do you not remember how long it took for the Bush administration to come up with that "paper"? And there still is no accounting for some of the time he was in the guard, but I never really agreed he was a deserter, I think you would have to be sent to a war to desert it, he was all cozy in the states, but I do think he ditched a few times. But that is not one of the major reasons I will not vote for him, Clinton dodged the war too, so it would be hypocritical to dislike him for that reason alone.

This is why im in this thread, not to defend bush, but to sort out the myth from the reality on him.
You alledge corruption or illegal busines dealings, i say ok, show me the charges, or explain why he hasnt been busted for these allegations?
would you prefer that i deny ignorance by just taking your word for it, or can you show something that supports this opinion.

For the umpteenth time, I have provided sources of reference, can you show ME something that disproves this opinion? He hasn't been busted because this administration has a great ability to disperse accountability in every direction around the president, just like a well built car disperses the force of impact in a crash.

It seems in blind zeal to "get Bush", the people are willing to believe in anything.
If you want my swing vote to go to "anyone but Bush", then show me some REAL reasons, not trumped up hype....that is why people ask for something credible to back opinions.

I'm not trying to get your vote, that's up to Kerry and his campaign team, not me. Kerry has my vote, and the vote of everybody I know, which is kinda bizarre, I don't know one person in my personal life that supports Bush, and I know alot of people, it just goes to show the division in this country, there really is two Americas.

When Kerry gets into office, lets pick apart all his apointees and see whos scratching whoms back....i think we'll find the same.

Whats that!? WHEN Kerry gets into office? Is that just a slip, or deep inside do you know Bush is going to lose? Either way, there is no winning in our argument, like I said it's clearly a catch 22, we have been going round and round, probably annoying everybody else. You put your trust in your sources, I will put mine in my sources, and lets just agree to disagree, I apologize if I've offended you with my lapdog comments and such, I was mostly joking and we all know this is a heated election year. But I am extending an olive branch.













[edit on 25-8-2004 by 27jd]

Cazmedia says:

This is why im in this thread, not to defend bush, but to sort out the myth from the reality on him.
You alledge corruption or illegal busines dealings, i say ok, show me the charges, or explain why he hasnt been busted for these allegations?

I have three charges, i'd like for you to address the one above, and are you not aware the politicians and people at the top abide by different laws then we do?
It's alot easier for them to get away with something because they are figureheads, cops "let it go" turn the other cheeck because they are figure heads, plus they just deny deny deny until it gets "swept under the rug"

Nixon had corruption in his time, Reagan had corruption, and bush sr and jr have theirs and so did Clinton... It's nothing new, don't be so naive.
I'm sorry you let your politics get in the way of moral justice and logical reasoning, a is a, it just dosen't go away because he's part of your political affiliation. that should be the last thing on your list to think about, deny ignorance or just be part of it because your a republican too....