Identity lost...

Imagine the following...

You and your wife decide to move to China because the political landscape in America has become such that you have to fear for your life. You buy a little house on the Chinese countryside and move in. You mainly keep to yourself because of language and cultural barriers. You might organize regular get-togethers for fellow Americans living in the area suffering the same faith so you can discuss current events and stay connected to your roots...

Now after time, little junior is born. Being taught the importance of the morals and values his parents uphold, this little guy is let loose in a world that does not comply at all with the values his parents told him. As a matter of fact, it's the opposite!!

Imagine being in China and having the notion that freedom of speech is one of the most important values.....that's gonna be one rude awakening!!

Now you and your wife can afford to uphold these values since you do not interact with the society you are in. But for little Junior it is a struggle between two very contradicting worlds in which he is expected to function. As time goes by little Junior will have become a confused adolescent looking for like-minded.

(For the fanatics these kind of kids are called "prey"...)

Is it not surprising that little Junior will eventually find that his community's church (which feeds of this contradiction of course) is a place where people just like him come together. As a matter of fact, the people of his age (born in China but with American values) all agree that their parents are to soft and easy-going in their approach. Their values are values that need to be defended!!

Does anybody see where this is going??

Peace

[edit on 16-8-2010 by operation mindcrime]

again we see, culture is NOT your friend.

Excuse the one liner but I havent really got anything to add to this than that.

reply to post by TheFaceless

TheFaceless,

Indeed, what a shame you could muster up only one line to express your thoughts..(Some folks have this, I know)

But if you could, in your own words, kindly explain what you mean??

(If attention span or some other infliction is the cause, excuse me)

Peace

[edit on 16-8-2010 by operation mindcrime]

This is all very nice, but US is a melting pot for gozzilion different cultures for centuries. Lots of Chinese live there for example. And do not get radicalized for some weird reason. Look at history - every new group that came to US (Irish, Polish,Russian and ctr) was discriminated against - culturally and financially, at least in the beginning. Vast majority choose to work hard and integrate while maintaining some of their original values despite it all.
Funny thing - contrary to your presentation ,vast majority of Muslims also choose to work hard and integrate.
So no need to feel all soft and sad for radicals and fanatics - they make their choice in exactly the same conditions other people made the opposite one. So this is not problem of society - this is their PERSONAL problem if those individuals cannot coexist with majority.

I see where this is going...

The children are going to grow up and become martial artists and defend their values in the ring in front of a live audience and they'll have tons of crazy adventures and even save the world a few times from evil green monsters!






Right? Who's with me here?







Nah, just kidding. Killing people and sending death threats is wrong no matter how you slice it.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
This is all very nice, but US is a melting pot for gozzilion different cultures for centuries.

So to state that America has American values is incorrect?? The whole of American society is merely a collection of different societies with different values??

Lots of Chinese live there for example. And do not get radicalized for some weird reason.

Maybe because their morals and values are more in line with the American standard?

Look at history - every new group that came to US (Irish, Polish,Russian and ctr) was discriminated against - culturally and financially, at least in the beginning. Vast majority choose to work hard and integrate while maintaining some of their original values despite it all.

Integrate?? Ever hear of places such as "little China", "little Italy"?? That is NOT integration!! Are you going to deny that immigrants tend to form groups of their own for security and comfort. (You and I would do it as well)

Funny thing - contrary to your presentation ,vast majority of Muslims also choose to work hard and integrate.

You never heard me say anything about work ethics, now did you? Where are you getting the information that the vast majority of Muslims is trying hard to integrate? Not attacking, just asking.

So no need to feel all soft and sad for radicals and fanatics - they make their choice in exactly the same conditions other people made the opposite one.

That is an ignorant thing to say!! indoctrination goes a long way.

So this is not problem of society - this is their PERSONAL problem if those individuals cannot coexist with majority.

And eventually it will become society's problem. What's your point??

Peace

I don't know, maybe this post in an other thread can help shed some light on what I am trying to say...

Why the west should fear muslims

Islam makes sense when it is in it's proper context ie. in a Muslim society everything around you complies with what you learn from your religion. Men and women are separated, men wear a beard etc. etc.

Now imagine being forced to leave the country. The first generation of immigrants didn't have to much difficulty holding on to their believes because they do not interact with their new society (or hardly). They just keep to them selfs and continue to practice their believes and values in the privacy of their own home or in small groups of like-minded.

Now imagine being born a son of this family. As a kid you will learn the morals and values of your religion and this shapes your world. Being immigrated to a European country you are expected to attend school, interact with society etc...This is where the trouble starts.

What is surprising is the fact that most Muslim girls and women are having no problems adapting and even using the system to get a higher education. (

).

It is once again the adolescent male scr*wing things up here. Religion is a wonderful excuse to condemn those things that you would/could never have (naked women, being gay, alcohol etc). So you hook up with like-minded adolescent Muslims and you express your disgust of this society.

If you are lucky, your society will have an Imam who holds a more radical view of the Islam and you will have conformation of your disgust. And of like with all groups of young men, the more radical you are (read: the more you dare) the cooler you are!!

Pffff....that was a lot. If you are still here, I would like to suggest that we move to a society similar to those of elephants. A matriarchal society where all young men, having problems restraining their hormones, will be shipped of to the Sahara or Siberia where they can choose from an array of weapons to survive the wilderness for a couple of years....have at it!!

And when you are done raging, you can come back to finally be a contribution to society instead of being a burden on society.

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

So to state that America has American values is incorrect?? The whole of American society is merely a collection of different societies with different values??

America has its own set of social/cultural and ctr values, naturally. But those values are constantly shifting -some being added,some deleted due to influx of different cultures.

Maybe because their morals and values are more in line with the American standard?

So you want to tell me that out of ALL those numerous different immigration waves that hit US shore, Muslim one is most out of line? This is ridiculous claim.

Integrate?? Ever hear of places such as "little China", "little Italy"?? That is NOT integration!! Are you going to deny that immigrants tend to form groups of their own for security and comfort. (You and I would do it as well)

Of course people tend to live in ghettos with same culture. But you understand that out of 15 million Italian Americans and 4 million Chinese Americans majority did integrate quiet nicely. Expecting them all to become Texas cowboys is pretty unrealistic. Integration in society does not equal loosing unique cultural identity. It equals being constructive part of a society, this is all.

You never heard me say anything about work ethics, now did you? Where are you getting the information that the vast majority of Muslims is trying hard to integrate? Not attacking, just asking.

Not attacking - is good. Not reading something and then asking - is bad.
I said that majority of American Muslims are working hard AND trying to integrate.
Again, integration does not equal assimilation. So person can easily be a Muslim observing all those religious laws that most Americans will never pay any attention to, and be a part of American society by being constructively involved in all aspects of life and observe US laws. This is not enough in order to be equal part of American society?

That is an ignorant thing to say!! indoctrination goes a long way.

Really? Indoctrination in North Korea where person has no choice - yeah, it goes a long way. Indoctrination to foreign radical ideas in democratic country is a personal choice. Nobody forces one to listen to internet lecture of fringe cleric or to go to some underground secret meeting. People are responsible for choices they make.

And eventually it will become society's problem. What's your point??

Well - society has tools to deal with this, ensuring that it stays problem of individual.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Indoctrination to foreign radical ideas in democratic country is a personal choice. Nobody forces one to listen to internet lecture of fringe cleric or to go to some underground secret meeting. People are responsible for choices they make.

And here we have the whole point of my thread!!

I am not addressing the hard working immigrant trying so hard to fit in!! I am addressing the second/third generation Muslim being born in this country.

Were you ever young? And did you, while struggling through puberty, always agree with your parents and society? Or did you have the need to rebel against these boring people who were always sooooo wrong about everything?

Yeah, we all did!! (well, the cool kids anyway )

Now imagine being a young Muslim man, having been brought up according to the teachings of the Koran, living in America...... Finding your own identity can get a bit tricky.

Not belonging anywhere can get pretty lonely for a kid so being with a group of like-minded is of the greatest importance. So much so that it is not even a question of choice.

These kids want to belong to something. They need conformation of their identity. There is no "personal choice" when the only choice you have is either being an outcast or being with a group of peers attending Mosque.

Now the quality of the Imam is the only factor that decides where this goes..

Indoctrination in a democratic country is very much possible!!

Well - society has tools to deal with this, ensuring that it stays problem of individual.

Aren't American prisons already overcrowded?? But hey, if this solution works for you.....

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


What do I think will happen to little Jr?

Some little Jrs will probably go the way you imagine.
Others will reject altogether the values of Mum and Dad and fully assimilate.


But many will be prone to the double Jr effect.
Where there are split between 2 Jr personalities.

The one where he appeases senior Jr and pretends to uphold Mum and dads cultural values in their company.Even attends services and pretends to believe.

And the one where he shares with his peers his disregard for Mr and Mrs senior jr values and culture.

I witnessed all those effects in my early years at school, the most predominant being the double Jr effect.
Girls taking off the ḥijāb and bitching about being expected to wear it but ensuring it is firmly in place before arriving home.

I am part of the 'dominant' culture and even I suffer the multiple Jr phenomena.

At work no one cares about anything I do, so I adapt in the name of human relations.I could sit quietly all day but instead i participate in the vacuous drivel that is considered conversation.In the past I have attempted to reveal the real mumma, it has been met with blank stares and talk of paris hilton.

At home the values of pantlessness ranting that i hold so dear are all the rage.

Not to mention the good girl routine I pull on my parents to make them happy.I hate conflict.

I even pretend I don't think organised religion is pathetic when with those who partake.

Jr may be more self aware than you give him credit for I HOPE.

Just my thoughts, at THIS moment that is.
I can be fickle.