Revelation; 144,000

I guess I only picked up on the bits which interested me and were relevant to my reply.

I'll leave you guys in peace now I've had my say

Originally posted by Student X

So everyone who has ever received the Holy Spirit has also recieved the seal?

Yes, that's exactly the way my thinking was going.

YOU rock so hard I love your post S & F on all of them keep preaching dude I like what I see and often email your posts to 109 friends and family and they love it to

reply to post by IndianaOps

Thank you for that encouragement.
It's very good to know that these things are useful.

reply to post by Danbones

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts.
So much was happening on this thread, for a few minutes, that I've only just had a chance to look over your comments.
I'll reflect on them, and I may give a fuller reponse later on.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Student X

So everyone who has ever received the Holy Spirit has also recieved the seal?

Yes, that's exactly the way my thinking was going.

But, as to whether someone has received the Holy Spirit in their heart, that is between them and the Holy Spirit. Or do you propose an objective way to tell? Would you have it be a matter of reciting proper creed for the proper authorities?

What if an amazonian shaman refuses to get the mark of the Beast? Is that proof that the shaman has received the seal, even if that shaman does not share your religion?

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by Student X
But, as to whether someone has received the Holy Spirit in their heart, that is between them and the Holy Spirit. Or do you propose an objective way to tell?

No, I agree, outsiders would not be in a position to tell.
I was thinking in terms of how the person themselves would know whether they had received the seal. I thought that was what you meant.

What if an amazonian shaman refuses to get the mark of the Beast? Is that proof that the shaman has received the seal, even if that shaman does not share your religion?

Good question. The narrative seems to imply that the world is divided between people who receive the seal and people who receive the Mark- one or the other. Which leaves open the possibility that you could be right.

The parable of the "Sheep and the goats" in Matthew implies that some of those counted among the "Sheep" are surprised to find themselves listed among those who belong to Jesus. Perhaps your hypothetical Amazonian could be one of them. We will have to see what happens when the Mark is offered.

A little tidbit that some may like . its not relevant to the topic and I didnt want to start a thread but wanted to share it .enjoy...This little piece of news is worth a read ."The contents of the tomb were able to be dated to the end of the seventh and beginning of the sixth centuries BC, the time of Jeremiah the prophet." Judy Hadley, a girl from Toledo, Ohio, walked up to Dr. Barkay with something very small in her hand. It was purplish in color and looked a lot like a cigarette butt. It was just about an inch long. Dr. Barkay, who has spent a lifetime discovering amazing artifacts, says this little item is, “the most important find of my life.” www.reclaimingthemind.org...

[edit on 15-8-2010 by the2ofusr1]

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
A little tidbit that some may like . www.reclaimingthemind.org...

Thank you for posting that link.
Wearing my "student of history" hat, I found it very interesting indeed.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Student X
But, as to whether someone has received the Holy Spirit in their heart, that is between them and the Holy Spirit. Or do you propose an objective way to tell?

No, I agree, outsiders would not be in a position to tell.
I was thinking in terms of how the person themselves would know whether they had received the seal. I thought that was what you meant.

If receiving the Holy Spirit is synonymous with receiving the seal of God, then we need to take a closer look at the receiving as a religious experience and the Holy Spirit as a religious concept. I hope you make a thread about it, if this is too off-topic or whatever.

What if an amazonian shaman refuses to get the mark of the Beast? Is that proof that the shaman has received the seal, even if that shaman does not share your religion?

Good question. The narrative seems to imply that the world is divided between people who receive the seal and people who receive the Mark- one or the other. Which leaves open the possibility that you could be right.

The parable of the "Sheep and the goats" in Matthew implies that some of those counted among the "Sheep" are surprised to find themselves listed among those who belong to Jesus. Perhaps your hypothetical Amazonian could be one of them. We will have to see what happens when the Mark is offered.

So, if the world is divided as you say, then the division transcends culture, language, race, gender, religion. The division is inner and spiritual and it cuts through the heart and through the forehead.

I think that BOTH sheep and goat will be surprised. People from all nations and languages and religions receive the Holy Spirit in ways that you might be tempted to judge as wrong, according to the standards of your religion. What do you say about that?

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Student X]

This article would give a picture of sheep and goats in a secular picture ....A Florida church which features "Islam is of the devil" billboards and signs on its property has announced that they will hold an "International Burn A Qur'an Day," on the 9th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The absurdly named Dove World Outreach Center, a non-denominational church located in Gainesville, Florida has held 9/11 protests previously but has never reached this level of sheer lunacy and anger. The so called pastor of this congregation of criminally insane crackers, a certain Terry Jones, has also authored a book entitled "Islam is of the Devil," and insists that the protests are the mission of his church. hubpages.com...
We also know that in that day all who cry Lord Lord will not be counted amongst the saved .peace

Originally posted by Student X
If receiving the Holy Spirit is synonymous with receiving the seal of God, then we need to take a closer look at the receiving as a religious experience and the Holy Spirit as a religious concept. I hope you make a thread about it.

Who, me? That's a massive subject (and this Revelation project has enough mileage in it to keep me going well into the New Year). For working purposes, I'm content with 1 Corinthians ch12 v3 as a rule of thumb.

I think that BOTH sheep and goat will be surprised. People from all nations and languages and religions receive the Holy Spirit in ways that you might be tempted to judge as wrong, according to the standards of your religion. What do you say about that?

If I believe the Bible at all, I'm logically committed to believing that views which conflict with it are mistaken, at least to that extent.
The central theme of the Bible, starting from the first commandment, is that there is such a thing as worshipping the "wrong god", and that distinction can't be wiped out of existence.

But that is NOT the same thing as believing that everyone holding mistaken views is condemned to hell. The fact that I'm referencing the "sheep and the goats" parable at all should tell you that I stop short of absolute legalism on this. I don't presume to second-guess the decisions that God would make on individual people.

The Wendat or Huron had a prophet...
He preached that walking the path of peace was basically the same as a ten commandment Christian which is most likely the same as an average Joe muslim...or Buddhist or what ever..a good person is pretty much just that...in any race creed and color.
But the Huron prophet gave the people a form of standing together that was meant to resist tyranny, because he knew things could go that way and they did.
The Six Nations Iroquois are the result of that constitution, which even George Bush has claimed was an inspiration for the American constitution.
They still have their autonomy.

What I see is that the creator in whatever form ( skipping the semantics )wanted us to make it work..If we can't make it work that means he has not done his job correctly....
and if he has not done his job correctly....
Well you can see what a can of worms that would be...
Almost every culture has a law giver or two...and allowing for windage most of the laws lead to the same place...
Man as a responsible adult

I see the Babylonian bankers as the threat.
they are a cult of corrupted DNA biologically and philosophically...
this is a group of organized psyco/sociopathic control freaks
They control anything involving money and politics and education,

If they had been resisted from the first, man would not be staring down the barrel of history as a failed species.

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
.A Florida church which features "Islam is of the devil" billboards and signs on its property has announced that they will hold an "International Burn A Qur'an Day," on the 9th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

There is a way to respond to Islamic teaching, but I think I agree with you that this is not it.
Continuing to present the gospel would be more constructive.

Originally posted by Danbones


I see the Babylonian bankers as the threat.

I see the concept of 'god' as the threat. It seems to be the cause of division over the Millenia and spreads bigotry, intolerance and superstition.

Oh what backwards people we are, relying on tales from the dim mists to guide us, even if they are founded on not one jot of truth/evidence.

What a sad indictment on the Human species, and what an excuse to pretend we are better than any of the other animals.....geez, even saying the god created us in his image is enough of an incentive to mistreat the animals.

My commiserations to the believers.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Who, me? That's a massive subject (and this Revelation project has enough mileage in it to keep me going well into the New Year). For working purposes, I'm content with 1 Corinthians ch12 v3 as a rule of thumb.

OK I understand.

I think that BOTH sheep and goat will be surprised. People from all nations and languages and religions receive the Holy Spirit in ways that you might be tempted to judge as wrong, according to the standards of your religion. What do you say about that?

If I believe the Bible at all, I'm logically committed to believing that views which conflict with it are mistaken, at least to that extent.

Hold on a second. 'Views' are not just views, they are interpretations. Including yours, I might add. Two different interpretations, such as an exoteric exegesis and an esoteric exegesis can each be internally consistent and yet be polarized as a pair of opposites. In fact, it couldn't be any other way. Both polarities are invited to the Wedding banquet of Matthew 22. Just as both Groom and Bride must be there, all pairs of opposites must be there.

The central theme of the Bible, starting from the first commandment, is that there is such a thing as worshipping the "wrong god", and that distinction can't be wiped out of existence.

Yes, but you need to consider that it doesn't mean exactly what you think it means. God transcends personality. But God is also Immanent, and when the transcendent God becomes Immanent he splits into a spectrum and into pairs of opposites. Like white light going through a prism.

Recognizing that the local FORM of God in OUR local culture is only a symbolic FORM, is one color, one symbol that is transparent to the transcendent mystery source...is how to avoid idolatry and fundamentalism.

But that is NOT the same thing as believing that everyone holding mistaken views is condemned to hell. The fact that I'm referencing the "sheep and the goats" parable at all should tell you that I stop short of absolute legalism on this. I don't presume to second-guess the decisions that God would make on individual people.

Very glad to hear you say that.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by aorAki

I see the concept of 'god' as the threat. It seems to be the cause of division over the Millenia and spreads bigotry, intolerance and superstition.

But if God should be a reality, rather than just a "concept", then we would have no choice but to deal with it.

Incidentally, I suspect that if you started naming wars "caused by religion", I could probably name five wars NOT caused by religion for every war on your list. The human race has been divided by a lot more things than religious views.

Originally posted by Student X
Both polarities are invited to the Wedding banquet of Matthew 22. Just as both Groom and Bride must be there, all pairs of opposites must be there.

No, there are certain polarities that cannot be transcended.

The difference between IS and IS NOT.
The difference between LIFE and DEATH.
The difference between TRUTH and LIE
The difference between GOOD and EVIL
The difference between GOD and not-GOD.
(And the first commandment is evidence that there is a difference between God and not-God. It is evidence that not everything is "invited to the feast")

One more thing. You keep trying to tell me that I'm wrong. But that, in itself, is evidence of untranscendable polarity. If there were truly no polarity, then I could not be wrong, and you could not think me wrong.





[edit on 15-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The difference between IS and IS NOT.

But personality need not be a part of ISness. Just because God IS, it does not follow that he has a personality. The transcendent God can be the IS of is-ness and yet, be devoid of personality. The Immanent God IS and has pesonality, but the Immanent comes in pairs of opposites.

The difference between LIFE and DEATH.

NDE

The difference between GOD and not-GOD.

If Jesus can be fully human and fully Divine, then don't see where that line is supposed to meaningfully manifest?

To cause you to open your mind, I would have you see how blurry the lines are between the categories of your thoughts. The Divine has ways of smashing the limited ways we think of such things. God has a trickster aspect, and the more rigid the thinking the more vulnerable the thinking is to the trickster.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by Student X

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The difference between IS and IS NOT.

But personality need not be a part of ISness.

This does not affect my point that there is a difference between IS and IS NOT, and that the difference is a polarity.

The difference between LIFE and DEATH.

NDE

THis does not affect my point that there is a difference between LIFE and DEATH, and that the dfference is a polarity.

The difference between GOD and not-GOD.

If Jesus can be fully human and fully Divine, then don't see where that line is supposed to meaningfully manifest?

Then you don't understand what the doctrine of the Incarnation is all about.
The whole POINT of the incarnation is that divinity and humanity are distinct "natures", that GOD and not-GOD are distinct opposites, and the miracle and the wonder is in the fact of holding them together. Not blurring the distinction. Holding them together in union.

To cause you to open your mind, I would have you see how blurry the lines are ..

Yes, I can see what you're doing.
It seems that my championship of the Biblical faith, as belief in a Creator God, is so threatening to you that you are determined to break it down. It's not going to happen.



[edit on 15-8-2010 by DISRAELI]