Revelation; 144,000

no one is saying there are two groups of 144,000....different groups from one another....it gets detailed.....huh!

reply to post by GBP/JPY

In the attached thread I looked over the various references to the "crowd in heaven", including the second 144,000, and argued that they were the same group as the first;-
The church triumphant

The key to the situation is that Christians are on earth and in heaven at the same time- "..made us sit with him in the heavenly places" Ephesians ch2 v6

Originally posted by St Udio

i would begin with this 60 second reading material


wiki.answers.com...



this symbolic place...mount Zion
is a place where a group (144k) of individual DNA humans congregate ?

mount zion can be either:
temple mount,
jerusalem itself (the part un-trodden by the gentiles)
or greater Israel (the spiritual Israel, not the UN created State)

mount Zion is the anthisis of the Babylon...even Mystery Babylon
mount Zion is the antithesis of 'Egypt' (the spiritually desolate Egypt not the vital nation itself)

i gotta side with the OP on this one...

hope i made some sense with the above

edit on 31-5-2011 by St Udio because: (no reason given)

Very close, and I love your take on much of this posting. I will help add to what you said here with a few clarifying notes.

Mountains prophetically can be used to refer to governemnts or nations. Mount Zion is the Governemnt of God/ Kingdom of God on Earth.

Mt Zion is the antithesis of Babylon (governemtns of mankind lead by Satan in this age).

The 144,000 congregate (come together) in Mt. Zion (the Kingdom of God). Becuase they ARE the Kingdom of God.

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic signifcance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

Thank you for the post OP, nice work.

I have been reading revelations again recently to make sense of some things I have encountered over the past two years Here is the biggest "problem" I see regarding these sort of things and our society.

At least here in the US if you have any form of spiritual experience you are marked as having some form of mental health condition. We have materialized spirituality in a sense. Mainstream psychiatry put a lock on the door and then "accidentally" lost the key to open it.

I was diagnosed as schizophrenic, put on anti-psychotic meds (that i quit taking) and told I had a debilitating brain condition that will only get words over time. They made me apply for social security disability at the age of 30.

Two years later I am now back in school for psychology/human services with a 4.0 GPA. Yea I could have accepted the disability and never worked again. However I would rather try and put a "kink" in what seems to be a flawed system to me.

I have had visions, near death experiences, psychic phenomenon, spiritual dreams, spoken with deceased relatives etc.

We have "argued" over certain religious text for how long now? Entire "faiths" have been adopted from these books. Now if a person should find him/herself experiencing anything "spiritual" as seen in these various books we then diagnose them with some form of mental illness.

Why? Unless these experiences fall in line with the current materialistic view of religion, you are a mad man.

Who would benefit from this?

reply to post by DISRAELI



I am trying to find a link to a book you may find interesting OP. I'll send it in a U2U when I find it. My dreams have been picking up again and I decided to join ATS and see what you guys thought. I am curious to see how you may view my "dream" I had in relation to certain events as well as certain "visions" and experiences I have had.

I have found getting others opinions really helps me see things from a different perspective. You seem really knowledgeable about these type of things from doing your own independent research. I would really appreciate your thoughts about my dream and visions I have had (they are mentioned through the thread),

I am not trying to gain attention for my thread. This (to me) is about sharing information and letting others help you in your "seeking". If you have the time maybe you can read through the information I posted in the thread about other dreams and certain symbolism in my hallucinations. I understand it takes time to look through the thread but the info is scattered as people started asking me questions etc. Again I would greatly appreciate any thing you could offer.

It is the only thread I have authored so I am sure you can find it if you are interested.

Originally posted by SyntheticPerception
We have "argued" over certain religious text for how long now? Entire "faiths" have been adopted from these books. Now if a person should find him/herself experiencing anything "spiritual" as seen in these various books we then diagnose them with some form of mental illness.

Telling the difference is a tricky question.
As far as the Biblical visionaries themselves are concerned, their validation comes from the fact that they are part of a series of experiences that people from the same community have had over a number of generations.
John is not an isolated visionary, but links back to Isaiah, and Elijah, and Samuel, and Moses, and Abraham, etc.They're all apparently experiencing contact with the same spiritual power. Taking the series as a whole, they're validating each other.
As for the visions of later mystics, the criterion has to be, for Christians, whether they are "in phase" with the main series of experiences, ie with scripture. Anything that seems to be changing the teaching or adding to it, or showing any other signs of not relating to the Biblical God, would have to be regarded with suspicion.

There is a casual relationship between Revelation and the year 2012: the Book of Revelation is the ending book of the Bible and the year 2012 is believed to bring about events that may end the life on this planet. This relationship wouldn't materialize, if it were not for two religions: Christianity and the New Age.

The Book of Revelation describes lots of visions as much as the New Age speculations about 2012 offer lots of catastrophic scenarios. But the link between both the modern and the Biblical accounts gets very intriguing via chapters 7 and 14 in Revelation where number 144,000 is mentioned. That number was hardly conceived randomly; it has its origin and if you glance at the face of the clock, you get the idea where the clue leads to: The day begins when both hands point to 12, which is an important time-related number. (One year has also 12 month.) Squaring number 12 yields 144 and that number multiplied by 1,000 equals 144,000. Obviously, the number relates to other things in Revelation than in the Long Count, which is one of the Mayan calendars. The Long Count is a calendar based on various time cycles and one of them called a baktun is a cycle of 144,000 days, and it happens to end on December 21, 2012. (The new, 14th baktun starts at the same time.)

So the number 144,000 is not just indigenous to the Bible - it was used by the Mayans for a real purpose.

As for the visions of later mystics, the criterion has to be, for Christians, whether they are "in phase" with the main series of experiences, ie with scripture. Anything that seems to be changing the teaching or adding to it, or showing any other signs of not relating to the Biblical God, would have to be regarded with suspicion.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I may have not explained the point I was trying to get at very well.

For instance he term "Christian" has many different meanings depending on who answers the question. People can be open and accept many different branches of any certain religion etc. All of these different religions have certain "spiritual" experiences included in them.

Today if a person does have a personal experience like those in certain religious text, they are looked at as mentally ill or some other label considered "abnormal" for lack of a better word. For instance, a person who studies and practices Christianity who has a personal experience of something "spiritual", say a "vision" they are looked at as possibly possessed by the devil or schizophrenic. In my opinion it places the "logic" of putting faith in religious experiences of the past into question.

In short how can people put faith in any religious text, if we then choose to "write off" those experiences as mental illness or "crazy" people who should be medicated. Wouldn't the prophets of those text be considered "schizophrenic" or "mentally ill" by this same society?

Again thank you for the post. Just wanted to clarify what I was getting at.

Originally posted by SyntheticPerception
In short how can people put faith in any religious text, if we then choose to "write off" those experiences as mental illness or "crazy" people who should be medicated. Wouldn't the prophets of those text be considered "schizophrenic" or "mentally ill" by this same society?

I think I grasp the dilemma, that if we class these experiences as "mental", we can't, apparently, class them as "spiritual", and vice-versa.
That's why I was groping towards some kind of criteria for distinguishing between them; I believe that both exist, and the difficulty of distinguishing between them shouldn't prevent us from recognising that.

I have already suggested one criterion which I think is very important; the spiritual experiences described in the Bible are part of a series involving different people, and that's where the validation comes from. They were not isolated individuals. If the experiences are isolated, and not part of the same kind of series, they are perhaps more likely to come from mental health issues.

reply to post by tremex

Since the sacredness of the number "12" in the Middle East and Mediterranean areas of the ancient world (not just the Bible) was probably based on astronomy, the coincidence of interest in the number 12 is not really very surprising. No more so than if different parts of the world have length measurements based on the length of the human foot.
In any case, as you observe, the book of Revelation and the current fixation with "2012" belong to two entirely different religions.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Number 12 came to gain its significance through the observation of the moon - there are 12 lunar cycles in the year. There were many ancient cultures that based their number system on number 12 (duodecimal system). The influence of this number is apparent even today especially in the measurement of time. The number should play role in the predictions, because a prediction is a statement regarding the future, and future is a time-related noun.

Probably the first strong jolt that caused to link number 12 with catastrophes came in the 12th year of the twentieth century when Titanic sank. All the circumstances of the notable maritime disaster led to the support of number 12 being significantly linked with catastrophes. The link is simple:

CATASTROPHES = 12 (letters)

One hundred years later, the 12 year of the present century has been virtually infested with catastrophic predictions due to the "Mayan prophecy." If we realize that the Mayans were an ancient culture that used number system based on number 20, then the year 2012 is a union of two ancient number systems based on 20 and 12. It appears that number 12 will be used in connection with catastrophes with a special relationship (water):

1912: Titanic
2012: Concordia

The most devastating tsunami on the record occurred in the 12th month of the year 2004. It appears that the sinking of Concordia early in this year was just a relatively peaceful reminder to pay attention to number 12 and the word DOZEN.

The catastrophic Indonesian tsunami was timed well. Just look at the relationship between the month and the year of the occurrence. The day lasts 24 hours and is divided on two nighttime and daytime periods, each lasting on average 12 hours. So divide 24 with two faces of the clock and you get 2OO4, which is an expression very similar to 2004.

I have already suggested one criterion which I think is very important; the spiritual experiences described in the Bible are part of a series involving different people, and that's where the validation comes from. They were not isolated individuals.

I understand the point you are making and I agree, but then another part of me sees a form of backward logic being applied. If everything was not written of as mental illness, the chances of finding a "series" of events involving different people today would be great.

For instance lets say we didn't diagnose people as "schizophrenic" after having spiritual experiences and hallucinations. Instead we cataloged different experiences into groups and looked for similarities between them. After enough experiences were gathered and grouped, we could easily create "ties" between these experiences over groups of people and validate them

It still stands that if the prophets of the old were to show up in the world today, we would try to medicate them. Under such a system the chances of any spiritual growth within a society would be halted and remain at a standstill.

Something that gives exact dates or numbers is inaccurate and never comes to path. If you want to find truth in your bible read through it once as a control. While you do highlight only the passages that god spoke, change every individualized word he uses such as I or me you any singularity words. And replace them with us, me, together, as one, all men. Wherever it fits. Then do not underline when a "man is speaking. Or something is being described singularly. Prayers make a oneness with the words like I said to do with the words of god.

When anyone person is talking ignore it. Especially when humanity or words of emotion are being used. An experience. So to speak. My people are gifted this task as the age of 5. The stories of morals within the bible when we have an experience relating to the lessons within we write them in there place. When we are all old. We have the closest thing being to the word of god and our own bible. With the consciousness of man being our lessons. Everything that man could want. Good vs. evil, or an even better explanation would be love vs. light. At a close glance they at together working as one, love vs light is just a deeper understanding of good vs. evil.

Like I have said would you want your child being of pure love and be thrust into a world of chaos or would you want him to have been able to walk through hell and even have a hope of walking out smelling like roses. Late is light. It is love with experience it is. Teaching even if the manners are not so nice.

The task of the 144,000 is to shepherd the assemblies in the Greater Exodus, call them the Moses Company

They are upon Mount Zion

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:1

They are deliverers

And deliverers shall come up on Mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be YHWH's Ob 21

They will escort the assemblies in the Greater Exodus

And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence Is 4:5

Greater Exodus

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that they shall no more say, YHWH liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, YHWH liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. Jer 23:7-8

When > The Great Tribulation, Jacobs Trouble

As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out My sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. Ez 34:12

reply to post by DISRAELI

In response to the OP's Topic....Although I respect anyone's right to believe what they want as far as having Religious Beliefs or not or following any form of Religion or having a belief in Spirituality...this is a forum for debate and I will treat it as such as far as my response.

The idea or concept of End Times or Judgement Day or whatever a person may call it including the VERY REAL possibility of an EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT or an ELE...has been written into Revelations as well as many other Religious Text all over the World.

The idea that 144,000 People will be picked by a GOD during the described Rapture is only something that a Human Being would write. It is the EGO of Man and also Mans concept of One or a specific Group of Human Beings having a greater Self Worth than another One or Group of Human Beings. This is both PRIDE and CONTROL generated by a select few and still to this day used by a select few as a method to gain Power and Control.

I used to have several people of a certain Religious Belief come to my home early in the Morning spotlessly dressed and carrying books as they asked me the question...Do you believe that the end of days in near? Then of course they would quickly continue as I looked through bloodshot eyes and suppressing a yawn with...Only GODS chosen 144,000 will be brought up into Heaven.

I would then ask them this question....You folks believe that only 144,000 will make it into Heaven? They would reply...YES! I would then ask...Your Religion has grown to almost 10 Million followers? They replied...EVEN MORE! We have been able to carry our message from GOD to the Righteous and people are seeing it's truth so are numbers grow! I then ask...Sooo....I guess out of the three of you...at the VERY LEAST...two of you standing at my door will NOT be going to Heaven. They replied...NO! Why would you say that? I replied...Your Religion has over 10 Million Members and you have told me only 144,000 of you will go to Heaven. How will you among yourselves decide who will go? Will you draw straws or cut a deck of cards? High card WINS? LOL!

Seriously...ONLY MAN could have written something like this at a time the number 144,000 seemed LARGE as back then the population was much smaller and people did not even know the World was ROUND!

Revelations should be viewed in the same way as the Books and Text of the same time which stated the WORLD IS FLAT! Both text have about equal value.
Split Infinity

Originally posted by SyntheticPerception
It still stands that if the prophets of the old were to show up in the world today, we would try to medicate them. Under such a system the chances of any spiritual growth within a society would be halted and remain at a standstill.

It's hard to see any substantial link between spiritual growth and the making of prophecies. The latter is a an activity that is natural to the psyche of Homo sapiens. The wish to see the future is partly based on the fear from uncertainty. There are many modern prognosticators and no one is trying to medicate them - there is no reason to.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The idea that 144,000 People will be picked by a GOD during the described Rapture is only something that a Human Being would write. ..
I used to have several people of a certain Religious Belief come to my home early in the Morning spotlessly dressed and carrying books as they asked me the question...Do you believe that the end of days in near? Then of course they would quickly continue as I looked through bloodshot eyes and suppressing a yawn with...Only GODS chosen 144,000 will be brought up into Heaven.

Yes, we all know about the Jehovah's Witnesses, and their idiosyncratic approach.
As I understand their belief, the theory is that their followers will be split in half, with 144,000 going up to heaven, and the remainder enjoying life on a new earthly paradise. I'm surprised that your door-steppers did not explain that.
Anyway, the Jehovah's Witnesses, who reject all the Christian churches and vice-versa, can hardly be regarded as representative.

I take your point that 144,000,taken literally, is an absurd number.
If you read the OP, you should have taken the point that i DON'T take it literally. It is a symbolic number, representing the whole of God's people.
Please read (read again, if you've read them before) the first four paragraphs of the "Who?" heading in the OP.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I did read it and as I stated...only something of this nature could be written by MAN. It is at the height of Conceit and Ego that Man has placed such import upon himself.

If there is a GOD...it is something that we can neither understand or associate with in our physical forms. That is if there is...there very well could be not.

The absolute hilarity of Revelations is that it bases itself on the idea that a person would retain their physical form once either taken up to Heaven or sent to Hell. Plus if there is a GOD then that GOD would be responsible for creating people with a disposition to either be Good or Evil. Some would site Freewill but then again that GOD would also be responsible for creating the conditions that would allow a person to be evil.

If I build an Engine and it breaks down...it is MY FAULT NOT THE ENGINE! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I responded to your point about "144,000", which is the subject of this thread.
The existence of God is the subject of other threads on this board, and that's where it can be discussed.