Revelation; 144,000

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

Perhaps you need to read the rest of the threads in this series (there's going to be an Index thread when I get to the end of them).
I reckon I'm doing a fairly good job at managing my own decoding.

edit on 2-2-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

It's already been decoded as communications between rebels against the Roman Empire. Rand Corporation owns the complete file on it, and it is used as a teaching tool example guide to decoding cryptic speech. It contains zero supernatural meanings.


Others are free to decode it their own way. So you are free to do so yourself. I wish you the best in your endeavor.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
It's already been decoded as communications between rebels against the Roman Empire. Rand Corporation owns the complete file on it, and it is used as a teaching tool example guide to decoding cryptic speech. It contains zero supernatural meanings.

Anyone decoding it that way is mistaken.
I'm used to the esoteric fantasisers importing their own meanings into this book.
Yours is just another version.
My decoding is more consistent with the wording.

the rules of interpretation .....no alogory or metaphor
we take it at face value ...that book (basic instructions before leaving earth) is truly the literary masterpiece...on about three levels....to think a manual that covers all scenarios in this world and states what to prepare for and then makes the statement..."see, i have told you before hand" ya could fall on your face.!!

I just want to make this clear with everyone, 144,000 is LITERAL!

To think of it any way else is using your OWN interpretation...

Remember what the Bible first explains...

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."

Revelations even list's out each tribe saying 12,000 from each.

If 144,000 isn't literal than how can you have a great multitude that no one can NUMBER?

British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.

Revelation may speak of a dragon with 7 heads, the dragon is a symbol, but there is literally 7 kings or something!

The interpretation of the 144,000 you posed is ridiculous.

You added other meanings from the Bible with numbers to come up with 144,000 when the bible already explains how God got that number!

These people are Gods ELECT, they are chosen by God just as any important Biblical figure has. You can't make yourself a part of this group.

The 144,000 are the bride of Christ and have been chosen to eat at the marriage of the lamb. They will reign with Christ in the new millenium and will rule over the great multitude of the earth.


A lot of people like to interpret the 144,000 in a way that makes them fit in, but the cold honest truth is only 144,000 will be a part of the 144,000!

It doesn't mean others cannot have everlasting life through Christ!

We are all raised incorruptible...

Originally posted by Techyo
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."

This passage points out that prophecy comes from God, and therefore the interpretation has to come from God.
So far, so good.
But thst doesn't establish the point that interpretation has to be literal, because it leaves open the possibility that God might provide someone with a non-literal interpretation.

Let me offer you a test-case about whether God deals with literal numbers.
At several points in Jeremiah, the prophet indicates that "seventy years" will elapse between the fall of Jerusalem and the downfall of Babylon;
"After seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon"- Jeremiah ch25 v12
But the records of history tell us that Jerusalem fell in 587 B.C and Babylon fell to the Persians in 539 B.C.
This is not a literal "seventy years".
And at the beginning of Daniel ch9, Daniel sets out to gain an understanding of the "seventy years" predicted by Jeremiah- something he would not have needed to do if the figure had a literal meaning.
We need to understand, in fact, that "seventy" is a symbolic number- it combines "7", the number of God, with "10", the number of completeness, which is why it keeps cropping up in scripture and Jewish legend.

This opens our eyes to the possibility that God works in symbolic numbers, not literal ones, and so there is no reason why a symbolic interpretation should not be an interpretation sent by the Holy Spirit of God.

That passage you quoted from 2 Peter ch1 v20; if you read the verse in context (always a good thing to do when you're looking at Biblical passages), you will see that Peter is discussing the question of Old Testament prophecy relating to the coming of Christ. And it may be worth observing that prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament sometimes have to be found by using non-literal interpretation.
A classic example is "A virgin shall bring forth a child"; this is not the literal intended meaning of the Hebrew of Isaiah, as you will see if you read the prophecy in context. The literal meaning of the passage is that the hostile forces besieging Jerusalem will disappear so quickly that a child born in the near future won't have to wait very long before there's plenty of food to eat. The only way we've been able to get a "prophecy of Christ" out of Isaiah ch7 v14 is by allowing the Holy Spirit of God to offer us a non-literal interpretation of the verse.

So I agree that the interpretation of prophecy must be sent by God.
But I don't accept that this obliges us to accept a literal interpretation of numbers which are meant symbolically.

Its a calendar people, and one you've seen before.

Its 144,000 days divided by 365 days giving you 394.52 years.

And now by using the magic number 13 from chapter 13 where 666 is mentioned, you multiply 13 by 394.52 and you get 5128.76 years which is roughly equivalent to the Mayan number of @ 5125 years. Dialing down to about 394.25 years gets you on the money I think.

If one knew the total number of years of 5125, then they could also resolve the 394 by multiplying each chapter by its number of verses and then adding up those totals which would yield 4731.

So 5125 - 4731 = 394, but multiplying that by 13 would only yield 5122. So if I divide 4731 by 12 that yields 394.25.

Cool huh...

Now I have the right number. So 13 x 394.25 = 5125.25

Without knowing how the Mayan calendar worked, the numbers in Revelations would be largely useless. But this is what they mean and not all of that garbage thats meant to confuse people and hide its purpose.

So I'm banking on 666 days after 2012 for something to go down.

I'm currently working on a prophecy map thats just a few years down the road from 2012, and its turning into a picture worth a 1000 conspiracies. While you can't use it to see whats going on before the event, you can see why the event happens based on the current political and economic enviroment. Its bad news for everybody.

What I can't decide is whether or not to put it up on ATS.

reply to post by CAPT PROTON

You are deriving 5125 in exactly the same way that many people derive 666.
That is to say, you are starting with the result you want to achieve, then twisting and manipulating the figures until you get there.
Such a calculation is meaningless and has no value.
(I should point out, among other things, that the chapter numbers are not part of the original text)

reply to post by DISRAELI


It is as meaningless as your original post of tired religious psycho-babble.
The numbers are there, punch them in how you like, but I based them around the
Mayan calendar numbers which are established fact. The 144,000 was the key number.

Sure the chapter and verse numbers may not be in the original writings, but I would say
that whoever is writing the modern version in all these bibles like I have, knows a little
something extra. Just Saying...

reply to post by CAPT PROTON

The meaning of the text has to be the meaning that was intended by the person who wrote it.
They would not have offered a message based on the calendar of a civilisation which they did not know about, and which would not be discovered for another fifteen hundred years.
So you're not really thinking straight on this- I suppose that goes with believing in the Mayan calendar.
(The people who printed the modern Bibles and inserted the chapter and verse numbers were not responsible for the content of the text, so any greater knowledge they might have would be irrevelant anyway)

You've obviously built such a strong belief around this idea that the 144,000 is symbolic.

Doesn't scripture say, standing on mount Zion with him a 144,000 having his fathers name written on their foreheads.

So how does 144,000 people having Jesus's fathers name written on their foreheads fit into it all being spiritual?

It's just ridiculous...

"Then I looked, and there was the lamb standing on Mount Zion! With him were 144,000 people who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."

How do you not see this as a 144,000 people who have his fathers name on their foreheads?

To see it any other way is to create your own interpretation. You know this.

There's many other people who agree with me. Just do a google search.

You see from my understanding isn't from my own interpretation, but from reading GODS word.

God's word clearly says there will be a 144,000. If this was symbolic it would be specified.


As in count the number of his name, 666. You see this shows a symbolic number specified or even a literal number of a person name who equals up to 666. The Bible specifies that it's not 666 people, but a number of a mans name.

Read ALL of this...

"Yes, Revelation's 144,000 are a literal group of people....Various BIBLE SCHOLARS, PAST AND PRESENT, REACHED THE SAME CONCLUSION—that is, the number is literal.

For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago:

“It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.”

(The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.”

He added: “It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474."

Read that last one over again...if the 144,000 is taken symbolically, then no number in the book can be taken literally!

If you do not understand this than you're just being blind...


even more information...

Jahweh's Princess, argue and cite that “one simply cannot take a symbolic section of scripture and interpret it in such a fashion as to make it contradict other clear, literal portions of the Bible.” However, interpreting 144,000 as literal does not contradict any part of the Bible]. Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic [at the same time that “the lamb” is symbolic]. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.



also....

Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

reply to post by Techyo

"Everything must be taken literally" is not the way language works, and it's not necessarily the way God's language works either.

Imagine that you're talking to someone whose child has just had a serious injury. You ask him how his wife is taking it.
He replies "She lost her head and went all to pieces" .
I put this question to you; do you insist on taking his words literally? Do you ask him whether she found her head again, and where she had left it? I can guarantee that if you did that you would soon be suffering a serious injury yourself, lying on the ground getting your head kicked in.
Just listen to the people around you, just listen to the way they use language. Nobody talks to you expecting every word they say to be taken literally, in a nit-picking, pedantic way. Normal speech has a metaphor of some kind in every other sentence, and people expect you to appreciate that some of their phrases are to be understood metaphorically. Even if God is the ultimate author, a lot of the language is still going to be metaphorical.

I'll give you a more Biblical example. God instructed Israel to keep the words of his Law close to their persons. "they shall be as frontlets between your eyes"; they were to bind them to their hands and on their doorposts- Deuteronomy ch6 v8 The Pharisees took this literally, of course, and bound Biblical texts in those places.
But surely even you can see that this is not what God meant. What God meant was that his Law should be kept permananently in the forefront of their minds. This is a classical example of the way that "literal interpretation" results in completely missing the point of what the other person has said.

As for the "mark on the forehead" in Revelation ch7; yes, I understand that symbolically as well. The "sealing" is the sealing with the Holy Spirit of God (Ephesians ch1 vv13-14). By the presence of his Spirit in someone, God can recognise, and Satan can recognise, that the person in question belongs to God. This fact is indicated by the symbol that there is supposed to be a mark of ownership similar to the mark which was imposed upon slaves.

You offer the argument that if this number is not to be taken literally, then none of the numbers in Revelation are literal.
I'm quite consistent in this. I interpret all the numbers in Revelation symbolically, as you will see in my other Revelation threads.
"7" is the number that points towards God, God's ownership of something.
"12" is the number that points us towards God's people.
"10" is known as the number of "completeness", or "perfection".
I understand "1000" to be God s version of "10"- "the completeness of God's world". That's how I used the number on this thread. It's also the way that I understand the "1000 years", as you will see in my thread on the subject- 1000 year kingdom?

If someone says to you "My wife lost her head", and you understand this to mean "She suffered intense emotional anguish"- this is not "imposing your own interpretation" or "dishonouring his words". It is a way of understanding the man precisely as he intended to be understood.

Similarly, if God speaks in metaphor, then grasping the meaning of the metaphor is the way to understand him as he wants to be understood.
Perhaps you need to open up your mind to this possibility.

Originally posted by Techyo
Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen."

This is a non-sequitur. What is the connection supposed to be between the two halves of this sentence?
I see no contradiction whatever between the symbolism of a number and few people being chosen.

Originally posted by Techyo
You've obviously built such a strong belief around this idea that the 144,000 is symbolic.

Doesn't scripture say, standing on mount Zion with him a 144,000 having his fathers name written on their foreheads.

So how does 144,000 people having Jesus's fathers name written on their foreheads fit into it all being spiritual?

...

"Then I looked, and there was the lamb standing on Mount Zion! With him were 144,000 people who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."

i would begin with this 60 second reading material


wiki.answers.com...



this symbolic place...mount Zion
is a place where a group (144k) of individual DNA humans congregate ?

mount zion can be either:
temple mount, j
erusalem itself (the part un-trodden by the gentiles)
or greater Israel (the spiritual Israel, not the UN created State)

mount Zion is the anthisis of the Babylon...even Mystery Babylon
mount Zion is the antithesis of 'Egypt' (the spiritually desolate Egypt not the vital nation itself)

i gotta side with the OP on this one...

the 144,000 that are sealed at the time the 2 witnesses begin their 1260 day mission...
the 144,000 also begin their 1260 day 'witnessing' at the onset of the antichrist being 'revealed'


the 144,000 great-tribulation witnesses will be a large number of natural born 'evangelists'
before the Kingdom of God is set up.. but the 'spirit' of that group of rebel evangelists that stood up against the Beast Kingdom in the end-days. will be imbibed into the host of 144,000 entities that advance as regional administrators and magistrates of Gods Kingdom- AKA: Mount Zion

the original live brothers/brethern that made up the 144,000 host of 'witnesses' that were 'sealed'
were all slain by the Beast Kingdom under orders by the antichrist with the false prophet acting as the AC head of the Beast Kingdoms Gestapo/SS enforcement of the kingdoms Geriactric Euthanasia and Christian Eradication unit (GE & CE Units)


the 144,000 is just a symbolic number for real people that die a physical death,
then when Michael & his Forces win,
the 144,000 becomes a methapor to embrace those who had earlier died to establish the Kingdom
and then serve the Kingdom as a group, like Ambassadors do in our present time Diplomatic Corps.



hope i made some sense with the above

reply to post by St Udio

Thank you for that contribution.
Yes, "symbolic number for real people" makes sense to me, at any rate.
I tried to bring together both aspects of the 144,000 (i.e. pre- and post-martyrdom) in the more recent thread;
The Church Triumphant

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #12 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Originally posted by aliengenes
Originally posted by aorAki
exactly! couldn't have said it better myself

Perhaps you should read my reply to that gentleman, where I pointed out that he had not read the OP.
I take it that you haven't read the OP either.

reply to post by sinewave

As far as I'm concerned, 144,000 is not to be taken as a literal number.

I thought I had made that obvious by treating it as a symbolic number, but from the different replies I've had, it seems that I didn't spell it out clearly enough.

They are not a literal 144,000.
They are not literal Jews.

Originally posted by Student X
In your opinion is there any way to tell who has the seal, other than by if they will take the mark of the Beast or not?

Since I identified the "seal" with the Pauline "receiving of the Holy Spirit", then the way to tell would be by knowing whether or not you had received the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
I think the "144000" will be those whose souls have evolved enough to handle their duty.

This is by far the simplest and the most correct summation I have ever read. Excellently phrased!

The 144,000 are individual humans that spent their intire lifetimes being molded and fashioned into the image of God (in their MINDS), and are now worthy to rule over the Earth with Jesus Christ through the administration of the government of God (KINGDOM).

Your spirit is your thoughts (mind) it is what makes you who you are. Your thoughts (forehead) are revealed through your actions (right hand). If your thoughts are in unity with God's (through the transformation of the mind spoken of by Paul) then you are marked in your forehead and right hand with God's mark, because you think like (forehead) and do (right hand) as God. This process takes a lifetime of repentance and growth spiritually. If your thoughts are not in unity with God's then you are marked with the mark of mankind (the Beast) as influenced by Satan in this age.

You determine which mark you recieve. And it all starts with the Sabbath, are you in unity with God about which day the Sabbath was to be kept on "forever and throughout your generations as a SIGN (Hebrew word = MARK) that I am your God and you are my people"?

However, the sealing of the 144,000 is NOT the same thing as recieving the mark of God during the tribulation. The sealing was an event in and by itself, and it happened at a specifc moment in time. The marks are not fixed until the end, you can remove the mark of mankind (Beast) and recieve the mark of God (obidience to the commandments of God) by choice at any time as we progress swiftly to the return. the choice is yours, and God has a plan to reveal Himself and His truths shortly to all the world.

The 144,000 are the KINGDOM OF GOD, the very purpose for the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the ruling of the Kingdom of God on Earth. It are these 144,000 individuals throughout all history (Moses, Arron, Abraham, Paul, Peter, Mary, Joseph, Solomon, David etc.) along with Jesus Chrsit that will rule the earth as kings and priests with Jesus Chrsit both the king of kings and the high priest.

The sealing has already taken place, and the few who where alive and on earth on that day (Feast of Trumpets 2008) that are counted as part of the 144,000 will not know that they were sealed fully until the moment of the glorious appearing when it is they who are transformed in the blinking of an eye into immortal spirit beings as their older brother Jesus Christ before them, first those who are dead (prophets, apostles, Mary etc), then those who are alive (very few) will be caught up with them during the tranformation. The sealing is spiritual the individuals sealed felt no differnet afterwards, and they are not aware who amoung God's people was sealed that day (nor should they as that can effect spiritual growth).

It is on that day when all 144,000 (+1 Jesus Chrst) immortal spirit beings in the family of God (Elohim) return to claim rulership of the Earth from Satan and selfish mankind.

and you don't have long to wait.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

Thank you for your contribution.
I'm not sure that the poster you're quoting was writing from a Biblical perspective. People who talk about "evolution of souls" are often assuming that it takes place over several reincarnated lifetimes, so that phrase worries me. However, you've managed to find a Biblical take on it.
I'm not convinced by your distinction between the seal and God's mark. Revelation surely does not mention anything other than the seal as an identifier for God's people? On the face of it, the seal stands over against the mark of the Beast as one of the sequence of "paired opposites" which run all the way through Revelation.
Also I don't know of any reason for believing that the sealing has been completed. All we know from Revelation is that it must be carried out before the devastation brought by the "trumpets" can be allowed to commence. I see nothing to point towards a specific date.