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Herein lies the rub. If God is omniscient (he knows everything,) in a universe that contains no randomness, there is no point to letting it play out.
Originally posted by time91
Very interesting, and thought provoking.
I'll offer just a few of my thoughts: I think that god (creator) is giving us either
1. A limited world to grow and learn
2. A place to co-create (with his help, things go wrong when we don't create anything, or when we don't use his wisdom)
Or both.
Also, I think reality may be a fractal. The universe is a single cell in a larger universe, and the smallest particles are universes. Just some interesting thoughts.
Originally posted by adjensen
The first comes out of the studies that I've done of chaos theory, and the chaos implicit in complex systems. A simplistic representation of complex systems is the "a butterfly flaps its wings in China and it rains in New York City." Applicable, but a bit of a stretch -- rains cannot be backtraced to butterflies, obviously. But in looking at chaos, it becomes evident that the piece that we are really missing is the ability to collate all variables and calculate them together.
Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behaviour is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos. Source
The logical conclusion is that if we have sufficient data and the ability to calculate it out, we won't need to see the weather develop, we can just sort it out.
So the first question arises... if one had sufficient knowledge of the state of the universe prior to the Big Bang, sufficient understanding of the underlying laws and limitations of reality, and sufficient ability to project things out mathematically, could one determine the current state of the universe?
Recognize that this represents an almost unimaginable level of knowledge and mathematics, but is it possible that one could factor out the way that things are right now?
Aside from capabilities, the real limitation to this is the factor of randomness.
Is there true randomness?
Though you might believe otherwise, there is no "random number generator" in computers, because there is no randomness.
If God is omniscient (he knows everything,) in a universe that contains no randomness, there is no point to letting it play out Unlike us, he does have the capability of complete knowledge of the initial variables, as well as the ability to calculate it all out. If he would like to create a universe where pi=3.46 to see how that works out, he need not even let it happen, he can sort it out himself right from the start.
God himself can be the "randomness." As you might drop into your "Sims Family" and add a person or remove one, God leaning in and curing someone's cancer, or appearing as a vision someplace would represent an intrusion to the original state, invalidating the integrity of the experiment, as well as the predictability of it.
Additionally, and more importantly, we represent randomness in this view. Everything that has happened in my life, all the choices that I have made, have led me to this moment, my writing this. Everything that has happened in your life, similarly, has led to you reading it. Whether it has any impact on you depends on your reception, I suppose, but these are all purely random occurrences.
Originally posted by adjensen
The natural question, it seems to me, is why the state of a complex system can't be determined from its initial conditions, as there's logically no reason for it.
The Universe is finite, the particles within it are finite, so one would not need infinite knowledge, just knowledge of the finite members.
(even) if God is external to time, (and thus) the end state was known at the same time as the initial state was known... the paradox, I think, still requires it to "run".
Your comments regarding human action implies a sense of determinism, but I'm guessing that I'm misreading that and, as you say, a topic for another thread perhaps.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Still, for a believer, there is a way out of this. God is, after all, God; He doesn't have to bother with identifying initial conditions; He can set them as He likes, and decree the laws of nature too, so that the final outcome is never in doubt.
The only mystery I see here is why you think that
(even) if God is external to time, (and thus) the end state was known at the same time as the initial state was known... the paradox, I think, still requires it to "run".
In a recent argument with another philosophically inclined believer (a pantheist, however), I mentioned that the Greeks saw even the gods as subject to Necessity. You seem to be in agreement with that here, but I don't see why you should be, or indeed whether it is appropriate to your Christian faith. True Omnipotence cannot be subject to necessity; it is a contradiction in terms. Of course, unfettered omnipotence generates paradoxes of the 'God can build a wall he can't climb over' kind. Aquinus more or less admitted the limits of omnipotence when he said something to the effect that God's divinity is not compromised by the intractability of logic. I fear I paraphrase wildly, but you get the drift.
Your comments regarding human action implies a sense of determinism, but I'm guessing that I'm misreading that and, as you say, a topic for another thread perhaps.
You're reading it right. I am most certainly a determinist.
Originally posted by adjensen
So the first question arises... if one had sufficient knowledge of the state of the universe prior to the Big Bang, sufficient understanding of the underlying laws and limitations of reality, and sufficient ability to project things out mathematically, could one determine the current state of the universe? Recognize that this represents an almost unimaginable level of knowledge and mathematics, but is it possible that one could factor out the way that things are right now?
If God creates a start point, observes the end point from the same external (in both space and time) perspective, then it has to still happen, or he cannot have observed the end point. That seems like a limitation of omnipotence, but I think it depends on perspective.
In short, I view omnipotence as being understood with reference to God's relationship with our reality, but not understood for his relationship to his reality... if omnipotence in the two realities is not consistent, God can do whatever he wants within our reality, but cannot do everything outside of this reality, so the experiment still needs to run.
Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by adjensen
If God creates a start point, observes the end point from the same external (in both space and time) perspective, then it has to still happen, or he cannot have observed the end point. That seems like a limitation of omnipotence, but I think it depends on perspective.
In short, I view omnipotence as being understood with reference to God's relationship with our reality, but not understood for his relationship to his reality... if omnipotence in the two realities is not consistent, God can do whatever he wants within our reality, but cannot do everything outside of this reality, so the experiment still needs to run.
Fair enough. This way of looking at things also has the advantage that it makes plausible God's a special interest in humankind (He is omnipotent, but only in our reality, so He's God to us but not necessarily to anybody else).
However, this view makes a demiurge of your Christian God. That is an ancient and terrible heresy, first anathematized by Irenaeus during the second century. It remains heretical in all forms of Christianity to this day.
More here if you really are interested. I used to be, but it's all mumbo-jack to me now.
Originally posted by adjensen
I think that you've made a leap there that I didn't follow.
Originally posted by Astyanax
The concept of the demiurge was Platonic in origin. Gnostic adoption and elaboration came later. Your concept of God fits the Platonic demiurgos perfectly.
Remember that the prize for post-Constantinian Christian groups was world domination; they were like the Taliban on amphetamines.