Aliens are out there... and we need to stop trying to talk to them

I'm not sure where Dr Hawking is going with this New World allegory.

We tend to think of aliens as superior beings with technology light years ahead of our own.

If you study some of the stories of the new world settlement it makes you wonder about Europeans as "superior beings". Certainly the ships that brought the Pilgrims to the New World would have been marveled at by the native Americans, but the actions of the passengers and crew must have left them wondering. The Pilgrims for example were originally bound for the Hudson river but got blown off course and landed out on the tip of Cape Cod. They spent 5 weeks blundering around stealing corn and angering the native population before finally being directed to Plymouth rock.

It is likely the native Americans were just as intelligent as the Europeans but lacked the inherited technology of the European civilization. So what does that say about future alien visitations? Will it just be their ships and hypnotizing beams that make them superior?

Originally posted by Bordon81
It is likely the native Americans were just as intelligent as the Europeans but lacked the inherited technology of the European civilization. So what does that say about future alien visitations? Will it just be their ships and hypnotizing beams that make them superior?

I think that theory holds some weight. However, remember that over a long enough period of time, technology will inevitably lead to an increase in intelligence. Through greater biological understanding and nanotechnology it is reasonable to assume that we will eventually be able to improve our own mental capacity at least a little.

And if you take it far enough you could even say that if we start to develop fetuses outside the human womb, we could conceivably allow our brains and heads to grow much larger, because the process of birth is supposedly a large limiting factor on how big our brains are.

... Nonetheless we are often too quick to assume that aliens must be more wise than us. I think it's fair to say there is at least some room for the possibility that they are less intelligent, and only have the benefit of a longer amount of time for technological development.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Magnus47]

reply to post by Magnus47


I don't know what they would be like either. It's all speculation.

But the analogy of it being something like the Europeans and the Native Americans to me at least is very sound.

Has anyone considered what kinds of bacteria/viruses an alien species might bring with them? Even if they're entirely benign in nature, they may be carrying alien bacteria which could rip humanity to shreds.

If this bacteria was harmful to the E.Ts, I'm sure with they're advanced technology they would've eradicated it. But just as humans possess beneficial bacteria in their intestines, the E.Ts may possess bacteria beneficial to their biologic systems, but extremely virulent to homo sapiens.

Who knows? It's another one of those, "the possibilities are endless" type scenarios.

My only real point is that, we have NO way of gauging the level of hostility of an alien race. I feel like the type of people that are "human apologists" tend to project their desires for a peace loving version of mankind onto first contact with an alien race, thus assuming they'll be peace loving "spiritually evolved" beings that mean us no harm.

To me, the reality is they may be harbingers of war and/or looking to colonize our planet, especially if they evolved on some far off earthlike planet with similar chemistry and environmental processes.

The only thing i dont understand about UFOs and E.T is why do UFOs never get close to earth and cities. Why all the pictures we have from UFOs are blurry pictures in which we cannot see with a clear cut image the shape, windows and forms of UFO space-ships? I would like to how come UFO-Hunters never get clear images of UFO ships

Originally posted by wonderworld
Mankind must abandon earth or face extinction: Hawking

Mankind's only chance of long-term survival lies in colonizing space, as humans drain Earth of resources and face a terrifying array of new threats, warned British scientist Stephen Hawking on Monday.

Famed physicist Stephen Hawking delivered a chilling warning on a recent television special, "Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking."

To drive the point home, Hawking argued that aliens visiting Earth would likely be the same as when explorers first arrived in the New World.

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans," he said.

If aliens in space ships did come to Earth, Hawking suggests, they may be more "V" than "E.T."

"Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach," he said, arguing that they may have taken to the stars because they depleted resources on their home world.Famed physicist Stephen Hawking delivered a chilling warning on a recent television special, "Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking."

Read more: www.nydailynews.com... l#ixzz0wb75M4yT

www.physorg.com...


Many may argue that Aliens are good. My viewpoint is quite the opposite.

reply to post by Magnus47


Also, the reason fringe science is "fringe" science isn't because scientists lack an open mind, but more specifically because most "fringe" science is based on a total lack of actual scientific data.

Today at least, most astro-physicists and astronomers support the idea of extra terrestrial life. But they're not going to make the speculative leap to saying they're already here because of half-baked accounts of abductions and UFO sitings, which really, could be anything.

IMO, there's no problem there.

We're a very intelligent race. Just because sometimes our morals are lacking, don't make the mistake in selling us short. We've accomplished a lot, and will accomplish things we've never even dreamed in science fiction. Scientists are the way they are for a very good reason. In order to progress, we must build foundations upon things that are fundamentally concrete, proven through a very critical process.

Speculation will always play a part, but there's a very good reason UFO/alien phenomena are only speculation at this point, and not something more concrete. There simply isn't enough data to "test."

Edit: Believe it or not, the thought of finding planets in other solar systems was, in the early 1990's, considered nothing more but fringe science. It wasn't until the first extrasolar planet was discovered in 1995 that more astro-physicists and astronomers became open to the idea. So just because something is considered fringe science or conspiracy doesn't mean the concept doesn't have merit, just that we don't have the capability or raw data to make more accurate and concrete theories about the subject.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by SaosinEngaged]

i had a sudden urge to come up with a quotable saying while reading the last post, maybe..
"anybody can steal a plane, thats not to say they can drive it"

what i'm trying to say is, they may have the technology, that of course doesn't make them "superior" as such.

on this one, i have to agree with Hawkings, not completely, but mostly, i think we should start colonising other planets, sooner rather than later, and the further we can go, the better. earth life could get wiped out by an asteroid, something bigger could take out a few planets. being out of reach of a super nova would be rather helpful (we may be here, i don't know) but i think that expanding where we are, we increase our chances of survival, it goes without saying.

imagine a network of planets all working together as an organism, the possiblities are endless. haha, imagine if we colonised and we evolved so much apart that we became un recognisable to each other and ended up attacking one another, wouldn't that be something.

Actually, S&F to the OP. This is a subject I really like discussing.

reply to post by SaosinEngaged


I agree that scientists deserve respect and the UFO phenomenon is difficult to test with a scientific experiment. But UFO witness accounts are not the only reason to suspect that we are being visited by aliens. Everything we know about evolution suggests that there should be intelligent alien species somewhere out there. That leaves two major questions in regard to whether or not they might be visiting us right now, from a scientific perspective:

1) Is it possible to travel between the stars, i.e. "get around" the speed-of-light barrier somehow? Personally I believe this could someday be possible.

2) Where are they, and why don't we have any evidence of their presence? This is debatable, as the only thing these aliens would need to completely throw a monkey wrench into any scientific experimental verification of their presence is invisibility technology.

Add to this the numerous official documents, classified military reports, and credible witnesses, and I would say you have a pretty good basis for at least investigating this phenomenon from a scientific perspective. There is no excuse, in my opinion, for the awful reputation that ufologists have to put up with.

Originally posted by SaosinEngaged
Edit: Believe it or not, the thought of finding planets in other solar systems was, in the early 1990's, considered nothing more but fringe science. It wasn't until the first extrasolar planet was discovered in 1995 that more astro-physicists and astronomers became open to the idea. So just because something is considered fringe science or conspiracy doesn't mean the concept doesn't have merit, just that we don't have the capability or raw data to make more accurate and concrete theories about the subject.

Hear, hear! I wholeheartedly agree and was actually about to bring this point up myself. Now, having said that, why do you think Stephen Hawking ridicules the concept of alien visitation? These are his words:
"I am discounting reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?"
It seems clear to me that Hawking is not even open to the possibility of alien visitation.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Magnus47]

reply to post by Magnus47


1) Theoretically at least, it is very possible to travel interstellar distances at FTL (faster than light) travel. Look up an Alcubierre drive, or Einstein-Rosen bridge (wormhole) that could be held open with anti-matter.

2) There are many credible reports, but there are just as many hoaxers, frauds, and exaggerators (not to mention people spreading blatant disinfo). So from a scientific standpoint, it would be very difficult to determine whether the subject of their study is even accurate or valid.

People in UFOlogy that muddle the water only make it worse for the field as a whole. So while yes, there are some credible UFOlogists that deserve respect, there are just as many hoaxers and frauds that destroy any and all credit of other UFOlogists just by association, whether right or wrong. Unfortunately, that's just how it is.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by SaosinEngaged]

reply to post by nanovapor


I was once told by someone in this field that UFO's will only be seen if and when they want to be seen. It is my belief that they want out of hiding. This would account for so many recent sightings by even the elite and rumors of disclosures by nations.

reply to post by Magnus47


Perhaps it is more than a speed-of-light barrier. Something simpler like dimensions. Physics is like a math problem, never ending and infinite.

Originally posted by Magnus47
reply to post by SaosinEngaged

 

Hear, hear! I wholeheartedly agree and was actually about to bring this point up myself. Now, having said that, why do you think Stephen Hawking ridicules the concept of alien visitation? These are his words:
"I am discounting reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?"
It seems clear to me that Hawking is not even open to the possibility of alien visitation.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Magnus47]

In my opinion, Magnus, once again I believe Stephen Hawking addresses a valid point. There are so many established and intelligent minds scanning the skies every day/night. Why is it that most, if not all, UFO reports come from civilians? And how come there's not more of an official word on UFO reports from the FAA, or the ones witnessed by astronauts, etc? Surely all the astronomers scanning the sky daily could detect and observe some of these events, no?

That's actually one of my bigger questions about UFOlogy, and where the notion of conspiracy comes into play as I'm sure you know. If you want to delve right into it, honestly my belief is that the US Government knows exactly what most UFO's actually are, whether alien or not, but not necessarily that we've made alien contact.

And unfortunately, once again I must reiterate that a large portion of UFOlogy is made up of "cranks and weirdos."

Like I said before, a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch, (at least from a standpoint of reputation).

That's why I have such vehement hatred towards the blatant hoaxers and peddlers of horrible material that permeates so much of UFOlogy. It does nothing but drag the field down.

reply to post by wonderworld


True, there could be much more to it than just the speed of light. And I should apologize, I shouldn't be steering the course of this thread toward UFO's. Your original post was about the nature of a possible alien race.

To get back to that subject, I really think it's hard to say. When it comes to hypothesizing about aliens, we just have no examples to use except for the life we see here on Earth. Could an alien race have a shared, macro-organism mentality as opposed to the individual free will we each exercise as humans? Could they have a biological lack of empathy, being driven purely by cold scientific curiosity? What if their society collapsed into a Hitler-esque regime sometime in the past, and now their culture is obsessed with some kind of religious purification?

On the other hand, what if this alien race is selfless to an extreme that we cannot fathom? What if they would be willing to share anything with us, completely trusting, with no regard to consequences? Perhaps the evolution that led to this race necessitated that those creatures most willing to share and risk their lives for one another were the most likely to survive. Or perhaps those who were most selfish and power-hungry took the lead.

I personally think it's impossible to say. I don't think Stephen Hawking has any real foundation for choosing one possible scenario over another. We really just have to wait and see, I think.

I agree with Hawking that we should look to the stars to expand, however I disagree on the bad aliens. Just like there are different races here on earth, there would have to be different races of aliens. I think it's more reasonable to say that nobody knows for sure however some could be war-like and some could be peaceful. That being said, if aliens are not involved with earth today, then it would seem to make sense that there would be a type of council for interstellar beings, (I guess similar to the league of nations) who would attempt to dictate who contacted us etc.. and I doubt they would let them come in and wipe us out or something. That is assuming they aren't already involved with us in one way or another. If they are then I could see them wiping us out if we became a threat to the planet, they could view us as uncivilized beings who have more of a probability to destroy than to evolve, I guess. *Shrug* I'll just wait for contact and find out for myself I suppose. =)

reply to post by Boogley


You bring up another interesting point that I agree with. When discussing hypothetical alien races, people often forget to mention the likelihood of an inter-species civilization, i.e. treaties or councils or what have you. There is good reason to suspect that such an organization would exist, and here's why:

While we may not have much to go on when it comes to making theories about what an alien race would be like, there is one thing we can be certain that they have, and that is a survival instinct. Furthermore, war between two intelligent species presents a major threat to the survival of those species.

So, if you have two or more intelligent species coming into contact with one another, it is reasonable to assume that they would establish some kind of organizational agreement. It could be as complex as a "galactic federation" or as simple as "You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone." But either way it is fair to assume that some kind of inter-species organization exists.

That then begs the question: Is there such an organization already in our own galaxy? What are the odds that we might be under the watchful eye of something like this right now? Hard to say, and anyway here I am going in the direction of UFO's again, so I'll stop here.

Well there is absolutely ZERO evidence that aliens exist whether intelligent or not, never mind evidence of aliens visiting earth. I just wanted to get that out the way first of all. But say aliens did by chance come across earth, why would it be 'evil' or 'bad' of them to exterminate us?...for what purpose who knows, impossible for the human mind to even begin to try and understand an alien one , but it is impossible to say that such actions taken by aliens would be evil imo, from their perspective at least, it could be no more evil than me putting some slug pellets around my plants.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Solomons]

reply to post by Magnus47


We know our primitive society has observed Aliens. We could consider that they took the daughters of men and what global event might open the doors to the planetary rule and reign. There are indeed many more questions than answers but I do think these “aliens” are very clever and deceptive in nature. It does leave a lot to our imagination.

Scientifically speaking, we may be similar if they were in life form, since life forms as well as non life forms are created with the exact same molecules only in different sequences. Not to say there are elements yet to be discovered. I guess it can get complex.

reply to post by Magnus47


UFO's are O.K on here. It might add some pizzazz to the discussion.

reply to post by wonderworld


I think you're misquoting Dr. Hawking, and you are sensationalizing his message. Further, your thread heading is misleading.

Hawking did not say we must "abandon" earth. He merely is suggesting that we need to think about colonizing space. And I agree with him - there are many potential scenarios that may cause humans as a species to become extinct.

We can annihilate ourselves with nuclear warfare, we could poison the planet, any number of "bad" human deeds to do ourselves in.

We can also experience things that ar not entirely our own fault, such as solar flares burning us to a crisp, asteroid impact, geo-tectonic forces, among others,

Hawking also hints that one possibility is that any aliens that discover us may deem us unworthy of such a beautiful planet and/too stupid, primitive, or self-destructive among other disagreeable characteristics - or they may just decide to "take over" our world - and do with us as they wish (many pleasant possibilities present themselves here).

Thus, Hawking is not saying we should "ABANDON" the earth. Just that in order for us to give ourselves a better chance at perpetuating the human specie, that we consider beginning to colonize space. It's simply a way of hedging our bets - life insurance policy of the most profound kind - and Hawking is by no means the first to suggest it. Carl Sagan, Arthur C. Clark, Frank Drake, and many others have postulated the same now over several decades - and I also agree with them as well.

In doing so (colonizing space), we should not "Abandon" earth. Quite to the contrary, we should keep a large contingent of humans here on our home world as long as possible. Eventually, anthropogenic or natural forces may make it impossible for them to stay as well - but that is far off into the future if ever, and in the meantime, a human 'rear-guard' should always be maintained. If we 'abandon' Earth, then this beautiful water/life-giving planet will be free for the taking by any passerby. As long as humans remain here, then, as long as honor and civility is practiced universally (no guarantee of that) then our claims to this world remain. If we leave en mass, it will be a free-for-all; and my guess is that (as some believe) the hovering/observing aliens that may already be here will swoop in and plant their dreary gray flag smack into the middle of it.

Sleep well, my friends...

Oh - and here is what Hawking ACTUALLY said:

H awking thinks humans need to colonize space...

reply to post by wonderworld


He has got a point.
Why spend money scouring the space for Alien communications. Why?
If Aliens wanted to talk with us there would be no problems.
They would build a space elevator for us.

Lets stop thinking about Aliens and start thinking about ways to actually move FORWARD in space.
Colonization is key. Forget the other things. Focus on terraformation!