i cant even speak..after watching this

Originally posted by JohnJasper


Xtrozero - I see that you have a long history of spreading disinfo and hate. Your anti-Iran thread from 2008 would be funny if it wasn't designed to fan hate against "muslin's". I see where you even repeated the "Muslins on muslins" statement earlier in the current thread. Despite your complete lack of supporting evidence for your accusations, there are always like-minded people willing to feed on your drivel.

Only you know what reward you get for vile services.

Hey thanks for bringing up that old post. It is as true today as it was back in 2008. First, I don't hate Iran for I understand that they are a country like any other country wanting to push their agendas, but it is just that I disagree with those agendas. I’m also not trying to change anyone’s view on this, think what you like, but I’m just posting my personal in country observations.

I don't hate you in the least and I must ask why does it seem you hate me when I just have a different view than you.

That's so good of you to admit that the country would have been better off being left alone! The fact that it's illegal to invade a country for regime change apparently doesn't rate highly in your book.

Are you unaware of the US' role in the events following the end of the war. The power vacuum created by the US' insistence on removing all Baath party officials from government (1) plus the destruction of most of what was left of the infrastructure and heritage (2 and 3) set the stage for an inescapable power struggle.

I do agree removing the Baath party as was done was a mistake, but how did that minority party get into office to fill EVERY official position? I do agree at first was the power struggles as you suggest, but after the first year it was more religious reason as to why large numbers of muslins were killing each other.

They also created the artificial division of the state into Sunni and Shia, all part of the "divide and conquer" strategy. (4)

Lol that division has been there for 2000 years. And I would say Iran had more to gain from divide and conquer since 90% of northern Iraq is Shia and would fit nicely with Iran.

What goes around, comes around.

I guess we lost the war and never fulfilled all these goals since we are mostly out of that country now by turning over control (good or bad) back to their elected government. Ah well, the great people of Iraq finally triumph over the evil Americans, I feel sad now since we never reached all those personal agendas everyone suggested we were accomplishing there and as to why we went in...



[edit on 16-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

This post may inspire much flame but I must speak up about the atrocious things that I saw in the video. Let me begin by saying that war is, in my opinion a necessary evil of human existence. It will continue to happen until God comes and removes all sin from the world. I hate that fact but it is a reality. Evil men will come and oppress other. Benign regimes will be overtaken by malignant ones. THe only defense against this is to wage war and to win. I do not wish to get into the argument over whether the Iraq war is good or bad; whether we should be there or not. Weighted arguments can be made on both sides and it is in my opinion a very mixed bag to try to sort out.

What I do want to say is that war is and has always been the closest thing to hell on Earth that humanity experiences. I also want to point out that in modern times war has been largely sterilized in that civilian casualties are at an all time LOW. Damage to non-military assets and personnel have been dramatically reduced. War has historically involved rape murder pillaging and massacres. That is war. It is only our modern sensibilities that cause us to be shocked at the violent nature of war. Yet we are no different morally or ethically than the humans who lived in previous generations. Each one of us has the capacity to be the concentration camp guard who turned his head as thousands marched passed him to their deaths. Any one of us could have been that helicopter gunner, zealous to take out the enemy, firing on a van that had appeared to pick up enemy casualties in a HOT ZONE. Do not forget that U.S. troops had just been under fire in that general vicinity. How easy would it have been to have missed those little blips that were circled as children in the video I watched.

How calloused to carnage and death the human heart must become in order to prosecute a war. Is it surprising that they seem calloused when firing upon the enemy? I think the soldiers in the video are heroes doing some of the most difficult work in the world, living and working in a war zone.

War should be avoided when possible and then fought with impunity to end it as soon as possible. General Sherman recognized this during the civil war and more than any other single man helped bring an end to that horrible chapter in American history. He did it by bringing the reality of war to the civilian population in the south. He pillaged the south commandeering supplies as he needed them burning lands and homes as he went.

Those who expect that war can be fought without the kind of incident that the video shows are naive at best and willfully blind to reality at worst. Similarly those who think that war can be eradicated from the world are on verge of being conquered. They are simply awaiting the next Hitler, Stalin, or khan to come and ravage their little utopia and bring reality crashing in upon them.

I exonerate the actions of the soldiers not because I dismiss the tragedy of the event but rather because I recognize the corrupt nature of the world in which we live and the harsh realities that this corruption necessitates.

the question is what started first, this or the IED's... i have to say if a foren force invaded my land and did things like this, then i would be sniping them and making IED's myself, 1 mans terrorist is anothers patriot

Originally posted by Johannmon


What I do want to say is that war is and has always been the closest thing to hell on Earth that humanity experiences. I also want to point out that in modern times war has been largely sterilized in that civilian casualties are at an all time LOW. Damage to non-military assets and personnel have been dramatically reduced.


can you provide proof for this statement ? nobody can , do you think the reports we get on this stuff throught the msm is accurate ? .sorry i am not trying to come off as being rude ,but if this were true i would feel alot more better

ty kind sir for your posts

Nephi

reply to post by Xtrozero

Hey thanks for bringing up that old post. It is as true today as it was back in 2008. First, I don't hate Iran for I understand that they are a country like any other country wanting to push their agendas, but it is just that I disagree with those agendas. I’m also not trying to change anyone’s view on this, think what you like, but I’m just posting my personal in country observations.

You're very big on "agendas" and it seems that everyone is pushing one except you. You've obviously bought into our government's agenda for Iran and the Middle East and, in post after post, you're pushing that agenda with all of the skill of a propagandist. Your "personal in country observations" implies that you've spent time in Iran instead of accepting what the media have to say about them. Excuse me for not being convinced.

I don't hate you in the least and I must ask why does it seem you hate me when I just have a different view than you.

Nice twist! I disagree with you, call you out for your troll-like tactics, and provide sources in support of my alternative views SO I must hate you.

I'll trust others to see through the rest of your waffle but will take you up on this point.

I guess we lost the war and never fulfilled all these goals since we are mostly out of that country now by turning over control (good or bad) back to their elected government. Ah well, the great people of Iraq finally triumph over the evil Americans, I feel sad now since we never reached all those personal agendas everyone suggested we were accomplishing there and as to why we went in...

A country in so much turmoil that even the UK MSM is showing doubt as to the "success" of the Iraq invasion. Last night, ITV News reported over 50% unemployment in Iraq, a governent in disarray and escalating violence but they didn't mention the million or so that died along the way.

This Yahoo News link gives a flavor of the violence and strangely enough, doesn't mention Shia, Sunni or the word "sectarian" once!

But success can be measured in many ways and I suspect that several corporations have long ago reaped huge rewards from this neo-colonial campaign. The removal of an uncooperative dictator and the awarding of oil production contracts to US firms are just some of the icing on the cake!

Originally posted by Reign02
We are not over there just murdering people..... OMG how ignorant some of you are!!!!!!!! Terrorists have been targeting and killing Americans FOR QUITE AWHILE!!!!!!! Yea I dont doubt that we are in Iraq for the wrong reasons as they did not harbor terrorists because Sadaam wouldnt allow them in his country but Sadaam WAS A TYRANT. The people of Iraq are pretty grateful that they no longer have to live under his rule.



Reign02
Who Are You Trying To Convince - Us or Yourself?

This Is Not A Personal Attack On You Reign02 - Just A Concern!

You Claim The Fault Lies At The Feet Of This Soldier's Superiors At The Same Time You Label Him A Pussy And Call For His Murder.

It Seems That You Get So Worked Up That You Can Not Even Clearly Read Any Given Post And Just Respond With This Horrible Venom.

Your Hate Filled Anger & Rage Must Come From A Very Very Dark Place.

Since That Dark Place Was Not Afghanistan and/or Iraq Is Your Preferred Combat Console The PS3 Or The XBox360?

I Believe You Are In The Service, However, I Highly Doubt That You Have Very Much Real World Tactical Experience, Never Participated On A Planned Excursions And Have Been In ZERO Fire Fights.

If I Am Wrong (I'm Not!) And You Truly Are A Real Combat Soldier, I Highly Recommend A Visit To The VA To Seek Some Guidance. As Stated, This Is Not An Attack, Just Pointing Out Some Little Red Flags.

Again, If I Am Wrong, There Are Many Methods To Help With PTSD Because This Rage, Anger & Hate Isn't Even A Small Scrap Compared To The Coming War That Will Take Place In Your Head.

The Sooner You Look Into This The Less Chance You Have Of Making A Headline -- SEE BELOW EXAMPLES:

PTSD Headline #1

PTSD Headline #2

PTSD Headline #3

PTSD Headline #4

EDIT: To Add Line For Clarity.

[edit on 8/18/2010 by EyeHeartBigfoot]

reply to post by Johannmon

Let me begin by saying that war is, in my opinion a necessary evil of human existence. It will continue to happen until God comes and removes all sin from the world.
...

I exonerate the actions of the soldiers not because I dismiss the tragedy of the event but rather because I recognize the corrupt nature of the world in which we live and the harsh realities that this corruption necessitates.

That's the beauty of Religion - you can excuse any behavior because God created us that way. Saves having to look too deeply into the social, political and economic history and recognising that actually we (as a society, not personally) choose to be this way.

Truly learned men and women, who were not completely blinded by religious dogma, have shown us the light to salvation but the ones in power at any time have halted any real progress to maintain their control over the populace and their wealth. Enlightenment of the people is the last thing they want.

When you're ready for the next step in social evolution, I suggest you start with The ZeitGeist Movement.

You don't have to agree with us (as many of us don't agree with ourselves!) but there's plenty of information and informed opinion to broaden your awareness.

Originally posted by Reign02
We are not over there just murdering people..... OMG how ignorant some of you are!!!!!!!! Terrorists have been targeting and killing Americans FOR QUITE AWHILE!!!!!!! Yea I dont doubt that we are in Iraq for the wrong reasons as they did not harbor terrorists because Sadaam wouldnt allow them in his country but Sadaam WAS A TYRANT. The people of Iraq are pretty grateful that they no longer have to live under his rule. 98% of the time WE ARE ATTACKED FIRST!!!!! See but you wouldn't know that would you? In this video (if you would have posted the original) you would know that a patrol was coming underfire in that direct area and they dispatch an apache to provide cover and support. Those cameramen were following a bunch of insurgents. In the video there are 3 AK-47s and one RPG that you can see. Now some people argue that its a bi-pod for a camera but who uses a bi-pod for a camera??? maybe a camcorder but not a camera. And what moron would try to use a bi-pod in a warzone?

I dont doubt that the gunner of the apache took it a little too far, but he was under the notion that the van was trying to evac the wounded and to clean the scene of all weapons so it looks like we killed innocents. AND SHAME ON HIM for driving his kids into a battle!!! Great parenting!!!!

The wars going on right now are to prevent and cut down the number of terrorists in the region. Because they will and are going to kill americans again. You really need to do some research on terrorist plots against america and plots against american citizens in other countries as well as our own. Simply looking at this propaganda is nothing..... You people don't know what is going on over there so please shut up and quit acting like you do.

1. If the people of Iraq are grateful, why is it that 98% of the time you are fired upon first.

2. You said Sadaam didn't allow terrorists in his country... but then you said the war was being fought to cut down the number of terrorists.

3. I support the troops, I just don't support the reasons for being there. The BS that the military is over there defending our freedom, is just that, BS. The only freedom they are defending is the freedom of corporations to plunder the wealth of other countries, defining such wealth as American Interests.

[edit on 18-8-2010 by ToBeContinuous]

Originally posted by JohnJasper
[ Your "personal in country observations" implies that you've spent time in Iran instead of accepting what the media have to say about them. Excuse me for not being convinced.

Way too much time my friend. I'm extremely familiar of the good and bad on both sides, and to me it is just the realities of the world in which we live. I disagree with much of it BTW, and you can see in many of my older posts in this area that I have stated I wish we never went into that place since I saw Somalia up close too and I understand these events are always a losing endeavor on both sides since the price is just too high for the desired results.

Nice twist! I disagree with you, call you out for your troll-like tactics, and provide sources in support of my alternative views SO I must hate you.

Well hopefully you don't and if you don't then I'm happy. The tones of people's posts can be miss-leading many times. When I talk of agendas I’m talking about those of nations and every nation has them.

A country in so much turmoil that even the UK MSM is showing doubt as to the "success" of the Iraq invasion. Last night, ITV News reported over 50% unemployment in Iraq, a governent in disarray and escalating violence but they didn't mention the million or so that died along the way.

Not as bad as it was...people are tired of the killing and many extremist are long dead. I said this before...the salvation of these countries will be in the hands of those just now being born and who hopefully grow up not in a world of extremism, and maybe that is what is truely the real victory.

BTW, in the news today

Last full U.S. combat brigade leaves Iraq

We will see a rise in violence now since we are no longer in the roll to prevent any of it, but it will subside.

But success can be measured in many ways and I suspect that several corporations have long ago reaped huge rewards from this neo-colonial campaign. The removal of an uncooperative dictator and the awarding of oil production contracts to US firms are just some of the icing on the cake!

Maybe, the World Bank is a true evil in our world.

BTW do I really have troll like tactics?



[edit on 18-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

Its very sad that innocent people are killed and that nobody seems to care. War needs to stop, and peace through out the world needs to take place.

reply to post by LarryLove


Yes everyone has a right to their opinion but lets' be respectful of our US and Coalition Forces first and foremost. No one could ever possibly understand what our troops are dealing with day in day out unless we walk in their shoes if even for one single day.

I think it's cowardly to judge our forces and they should be left to do what they do best and what they have been trained to do.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Wikileaks has alot to answer for and they have no business on the web. They are destructable and nothing but a bunch of cowards. Go open the lid on private corporations and leave our military alone.

reply to post by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by JohnJasper
[ Your "personal in country observations" implies that you've spent time in Iran instead of accepting what the media have to say about them. Excuse me for not being convinced.

Way too much time my friend. I'm extremely familiar of the good and bad on both sides, and to me it is just the realities of the world in which we live. I disagree with much of it BTW, and you can see in many of my older posts in this area that I have stated I wish we never went into that place since I saw Somalia up close too and I understand these events are always a losing endeavor on both sides since the price is just too high for the desired results.

Sorry but are you saying you spent time in Iran or Iraq? To the best of my knowledge, we've not gone into Iran (at least officially!)

You say "it is just the realities of the world in which we live" as though it's just normal human behavior so no point in fighting against it. I don't buy that. I think it's behavior that people in power get away with because the populace have been dumbed down through various forms of propaganda.

It is our duty as civilised people to change what isn't right for the sake of our descendants.

Not as bad as it was...people are tired of the killing and many extremist are long dead. I said this before...the salvation of these countries will be in the hands of those just now being born and who hopefully grow up not in a world of extremism, and maybe that is what is truely the real victory.

Here I also have to disagree. We took a country that was probably only marginally better or worse than Saudi Arabia (from which alleged 911 hijackers came) and instead of helping it to grow out of its undemocratic, repressive form of government, we bombed it into desperation (destroyed water treatment plants, powdered milk factories, and other basic infrastructure facilities,) clamped it under a decade of punishing sanctions and then completed its destruction with Shock and Awe followed by the atrocious post-war policies.
A Lesson In U.S. Propaganda

If you haven't read Naomi Kleins "Shock Doctrine" or one of many books on the same subject, you should do so.

Here's a telling quote from the BuzzFlash interview with Naomi.

BuzzFlash: What I'm trying to set up here is a theoretical construct. Suppose I am trying to instill a radical economic policy of unfettered capitalism. It is a myth, and as ideologically extremist as about anything you can get. If I were going into a country and saying I want to develop this model here, wouldn't it be to my benefit to destroy all the economic and bureaucratic infrastructure that preexists there, rather than trying to graft on to it?

Naomi Klein: I think that was what we saw. In my reporting from Iraq, this was very clear. When I spoke to Iraq's Interim Minister of Industry, appointed by the U.S., he was telling me about the just straight-up refusal to get generators for Iraq's state-owned companies, who could have been participating in the reconstruction of the country, like the cement companies there. Iraq has, I think, thirteen huge cement factories that were not functioning at this key moment when cement was in huge demand during the early days of the reconstruction. Cement was being imported from abroad. The Minister, Mohammad Tawfiq, was begging Bremer to just get some emergency generators -- because, of course, the electricity was still out -- to get these factories working. He was just shut down.

He said he was shut down for ideological reasons and also for financial reasons -- that the strategy was simply to let these companies falter. From a financial point of view, if you resuscitate these firms -- if you bring them up to standard and you get them working, then they are going to sell for more. Of course, that is in Iraq's financial interest, but it's not in the interest of the foreign companies in whose interest Paul Bremer was writing the world's most generous foreign investment laws.

These are not the actions of people who are trying to help Iraq. They are the actions of people who are trying to help themselves to Iraq.

BTW do I really have troll like tactics?

Yes but I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first. Then you continued in the same vein and it's only because of the changed tone in your last post that I'm replying at all. As you say, the tone of posts can be misleading.

Some definitions:

- the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar. Check! See your previous reply to me

- posting a deliberately provocative message with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument. Check! Reread your thread about Iran and the extremely anti-Muslim statements completely unfounded except in the popular rhetoric carried by the MSM

No offense intended and hopefully we'll both learn something from this interaction.

(edit to fix typo)

[edit on 19-8-2010 by JohnJasper]

reply to post by Tripple_Helix


when they dont tolerate it we call it terrorism

I can never understand why anyone,under any circumstances would think that killing other people is a solution...

That was absolutely disgusting! Listening to the solider talking about how they were told to shoot every mofo on the street after an IED attack and that one guy saying "shouldn't have brought their kids to a battle". That's where I completely lost it. You call that a battle, seriously?

I was aware of the video for awhile now but I hadn't actually watched the whole thing. Maybe it's because I live in the US but I don't remember them even talking about the kids or van when this story broke. I understand these troops are at war but the complete disregard for human life was shocking.

While war is a nasty and dirty business, this type of behavior is completely unacceptable. These guys and their superiors who tried to cover this up should all be put on trial.

reply to post by JohnJasper


Dear JohnJasper,

Let's not be too harsh on Xtrozero. He did publically admitted his honest view, a significant change and admittance and by itself would be considered a miracle here in ATS, knowing how impossible it is for one to change his mind as all who come here came with intractable mindsets.

Never kick a man when he is down is a wise policy to adopt, for to do so would only corner and when one is in corner, one fights back all the way, either you die or he dies. It is unnecessary, more so on this thread and site where one of our common aim is to end bloodshed and harm of precious human lives.

Instead, extend your hand out or hold your peace, for even should we not do it, then how more are we to expect our leaders to do so? But still, it is your choice. I am assured of Xtrozero's sincerity and remorse.

There is so much more to do once we win this battle, for the war is yet to be won. Once the arms are down, we have to:-

1. Rebuild the cities.

2. Rebuild our world with more compassion to others.

3. Rebuild our economies with more conscience.

4. Retool our manufacturing towards the stars.

5. Rebuild our family bonds that had been torn asunder by our greed and apathy, for without the family unit, no society can exist.

6. Dare I say it, an awful truth that had frightened many to seek for ignorance instead - Hoist the colors as one united humanity against those whom lives underground in Antarctica?

The clock is still ticking away remorselessly.....

SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at ‘illegal’ American tactics in Iraq.

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the “illegal” tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

He said he had witnessed “dozens of illegal acts” by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as “untermenschen” – the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

www.rinf.com...

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


SeekerofTruth101,

Nicely put and I completely agree. I certainly wasn't intending to kick anyone in my last post but merely to answer, in an even-tempered manner, those points raised in Xtrozero's reply to me.

Kind regards

Originally posted by JohnJasper


Sorry but are you saying you spent time in Iran or Iraq? To the best of my knowledge, we've not gone into Iran (at least officially!)

Oops I missed his use of the word Iran.

It is our duty as civilised people to change what isn't right for the sake of our descendants.

I disagree for you are talking about 4 billion people who need changing and it will be an extremely long time to do that, like maybe 500 years. We have come a long way when you looks back 500 years though.

Here I also have to disagree. We took a country that was probably only marginally better or worse than Saudi Arabia (from which alleged 911 hijackers came) and instead of helping it to grow out of its undemocratic, repressive form of government, we bombed it into desperation (destroyed water treatment plants, powdered milk factories, and other basic infrastructure facilities)

Well they did invade Kuwait to cause this reaction, and though you use popular examples, the whole "destroying their infrastructure" has been greatly exaggerated, such as the baby formula factory. We bombed what intel said was a chem factory and they said it was a baby formula factory, and to be honest it could have been either or even both, but it wasn’t targeted as a baby formula factory and we didn’t seek out other like factories.

clamped it under a decade of punishing sanctions and then completed its destruction with Shock and Awe followed by the atrocious post-war policies.

Though the sanctions were worst than the war or Desert Storm combined, one needs to ask just why did a big part of the world put them under sanctions in the first place, or have major areas of their country designated as No Fly Zones? Also we are not talking old Bush here, but Clinton so even the wild Bush reasons are not valid.

I'm not trying to justify anything, but as bad as Saddam was (and it would be hard to find worst) it didn't help matters with how everything panned out.

BTW how does one help a nation excape a dictatorship when that dictator has brutal control over them and one of the strongest standing armies backing him up?

- the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar. Check! See your previous reply to me

We disagree and so my statements are incorrect to you, and that is about how deep it should be looked at, but you suggest my statements were purposely crafted with false information to generate a reaction from others i.e. “trolling”.

- posting a deliberately provocative message with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument. Check! Reread your thread about Iran and the extremely anti-Muslim statements completely unfounded except in the popular rhetoric carried by the MSM

Can you give a small example of some generalized anti-Muslim statement I have made? Have you ever thought that maybe my posts were my opinion on the subject and not a "deliberately provocative message with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"?

No offense intended and hopefully we'll both learn something from this interaction.

None taken



[edit on 19-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by EyeHeartBigfoot


Well you are wrong! I am a vet and I have been in many firefights. I have nothing to prove to you, and I don't care if you don't believe me (which you don't)

The first couple times when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan I came home with PTSD. After awhile you get used to it. I don't suffer from anything major. I used to jump or flinch whenever I heard a loud noise. I have never had any anger issues, my posts were kind of angry but that is because everyone wasn't hearing what someone who could be considered an expert of most things that involve the US military and Iraq and Afghanistan. I have seen HMMVs blown up, I have seen people shot and killed, and I have killed a few myself. Mostly through calling in air strikes to support our troops when they were getting pinned down and or ambushed.

Again I don't care if you don't believe me.... Death on call, says it all.....