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Obama defends ground zero mosque plans

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posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by mikelee
Instead of trying to defend everyone else's right to do things like burn the US flag or shoot a cop dead let's try to focus on things that very possiblly could cause a major conflight on US soil.


You mean like your map of terrorists in America? One question.

If you have a map of where the terrorists are...why do we not have them locked up?


Like securing our borders, funny how we defend others' willingness to invade, shoot to kill towards their percieved "invaders" or threats deemed so.


Now I am confused. You just posted a map showing us how many terrorists are in the US. What good would securing the border do? Do you suppose security is retroactive?


Yet we can't even keep burger flippers and construction workers coming over from Mexico. Just imagine what goes on at the Canadian border!

Wake up folks. Wake up.


Asians taking pictures and people buying cheap smokes and liquor at the duty free shop. Was just up there checking on things for you yesterday. The same as the day before. Do not worry, according to your map it is not the Canadian border we need to worry about, is it?




posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:17 AM
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Tim McVeigh wasnt Christian...obvious by what he did.

Nobody has a problem with Islam....what they have a problem with is the moderate Islamic majority NOT SPEAKING OUT AGIANST RADICAL ISLAMISTS.

If the tables were turned and the 9-11 guys were all Christians you can best belive the Christians would be speaking against what they did and speak out loudly. This has not happened with the Muslims...not at all.



Originally posted by iamcamouflage


I'm glad that he is coming out to support this and so should everyone else. Being opposed to this Islamic cultural center is ridiculous. There are already several mosques in that area. And not to mention...Islam is not al-Qaida.

Wasnt Tim McVeigh a Christian? Should we ban all Christian churches near the Oklahoma City Building?



www.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


[edit on 14-8-2010 by princeofpeace]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by princeofpeace
Tim McVeigh wasnt Christian...obvious by what he did.


Then the terrorists on 9/11 were not Muslim...obvious by what they did.


Nobody has a problem with Islam....what they have a problem with is the moderate Islamic majority NOT SPEAKING OUT AGIANST RADICAL ISLAMISTS.


Plenty of people have a problem with Islam. They are all over ATS talking about that.


If the tables were turned and the 9-11 guys were all Christians you can best belive the Christians would be speaking against what they did and speak out loudly. This has not happened with the Muslims...not at all.


You mean the way the Christians speak out against the child abuse rampant within their own institutions? You have more faith in Christians than I do.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:23 AM
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Where are the leftists for calling out the radicals in the Muslim community?

They sure as hell are calling for the TPM to call out the supposed racists in that movement.

But nothing in regards to radical Islam.

Hmmm, begs the question.

Does the leftists have the SAME agenda as Radical Islam, the destruction of the Western countries?

Interesting question.

As for those defending the Mosque, let me ask, what are your stances on the Christian beliefs? LOL.

I can JUST imagine.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
Where are the leftists for calling out the radicals in the Muslim community?


Which ones?


They sure as hell are calling for the TPM to call out the supposed racists in that movement.


Think the two are comparable do you?


But nothing in regards to radical Islam.


I missed the last radical Islam rally in my town I guess?


Hmmm, begs the question.

Does the leftists have the SAME agenda as Radical Islam, the destruction of the Western countries?


Yup. You nailed it with that logic.


Interesting question.

As for those defending the Mosque, let me ask, what are your stances on the Christian beliefs? LOL.

I can JUST imagine.


They are just as silly as Muslim beliefs but unfortunately I live in America where they have the right to build churches so I see no good reason to deny that right to any other fairy tale believer.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by princeofpeace
 

Actually, many, many Muslims have spoken out against and condemned the actions of the 9/11 criminals, both individually and as groups. These criminals did as much if not more harm to them as they did to anyone else on that day, as clearly evidenced by this simple issue.

Here's a starting point for you should you want to read more about this... www.muhajabah.com...
 

As for the president "defending?" He's defending the values, laws, and principles of this country, not any particular project or religion.

[edit on 8/14/2010 by ~Lucidity]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 08:43 AM
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I know that if I was a believer in the OS then I would be offended.

Of course Muslims have the right to erect a mosque right next to ground zero. It would be the same as if I lived in Harlem and posted signs in my yard saying "I hate n****". It would be my right but not very smart or responsible.
Rights carry with them a certain amount of self-discipline and responsibility.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by ChrisF231
This is called the Cordoba House Initiative, here's a history lesson ... before 1492 and the whole Reconquista modern Spain was ruled by the Muslims (called Moors) and their capital was located in .... yeah you guessed it; Cordoba, Spain.


[edit on 13-8-2010 by ChrisF231]



I wouldn't call it modern Spain, better yet the early middle ages. In 711 the muslims invaded Spain, in 785 they build the Cordoba mosque/mezquita [indeed as triumph of victory], exactly on the spot of an old Roman temple..
It was one of the highlights of the caliphate [later created on the peninsula] the only place they really dominated in Europe, the Jews and Christians where the only ones to pay taxes to feed the economy..



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by iamcamouflage


I'm glad that he is coming out to support this and so should everyone else. Being opposed to this Islamic cultural center is ridiculous. There are already several mosques in that area. And not to mention...Islam is not al-Qaida.

Wasnt Tim McVeigh a Christian? Should we ban all Christian churches near the Oklahoma City Building?


At first look, your post makes a lot of sense and begs for tolerance and understanding towards other religions, which is a profoundly good trait I believe what America is all about.

Then, I take into account that you're talking about Islam, and that perhaps your experience of Islam is rather vague and superficial.

Let me just tell you something about Islam, to weigh in some additional perspectives on the whole mosque issue, and our relationship with this increasingly imposing sociopolitic theocracy.

Is Islam a religion? Yes it is, but it is more than just a religion. It is a whole way of life dedicated to God, and any Imam will confirm that I'm totally right about this.

Islam consists basically of two texts, the Qu'ran and the Hadith. The Qu'ran being the so called true words of God, as handed down to Mohammed the so called prophet, by the intermediary Angel Gabriel.

The Hadith is the collected sayings and doings of Mohammed the so called prophet, andecdotes from people who knew him, met him or once heard him say something.
To Muslims, Mohammed is the one human being that came closest to God, therefore knew best how to please God. Everything that Mohammed did, said, ate, drank therefore becomes precursory for all Muslims.

From this springs the Sharia, Islamic law, which pertains that anything expressed in the Qu'ran is (God's) law, and everything in the Hadith is judicial example.

This forms an all-encompassing law of how to live your life. If the Qu'ran or the Hadith does not explicitly tell you how to act in a certain situation, for instance does your wife have a right to drive a car or not, then a council will 'interpret' what God most likely wants for us.

From this, you realize that Islam is a very close-knit religious society where there is little room for alternative opinions... like with many other religions in the world.

Now, this would all be neat if Islam was just a small sect, perhaps with a mosque or two in the big cities. Just another religious belief system blending into the mosaic of co-existing religions or spiritual belief systems.

But, Islam is now one of the biggest religions in the world, if not the biggest, with more than 1.2 billion followers, and growing.

So it's time to see if Islam, with is ever growing influence, can be a partner and upholder of this religious freedom-based system, once the Islamic minority grows into something of a majority.

The only answer I can give you to this is no, and I believe that any Muslim answering this question honestly will agree with me.

Of course the media will tell you that Islam is a religion of peace, and the Islamic communities respect the law and work in perfect co-operation and harmony with the authorities, etc. They do, for now.

But to a Muslim, it doesn't matter what they say in the media, it only matters what it says in the Qu'ran. And what does the Qu'ran say? It says that it's every Muslim's obligation to try to convert a non-muslim (infidel) to Islam. If he manages to do so, everything is fine. If not, he will accept their mere existence as infidels peacefully as long as they respect Muslim dominance and law - or rather the special laws Muslims ordains infidels. If they don't, he must fight them, and if they fight back he must kill them (I'll link you to Wikipedia because it contains several different translations of the same surahs):

en.wikipedia.org...

The Qu'ran ordains more tolerance towards the Book (monotheistic) religions and less towards polytheistic religions. So there's a cast system right there, with first class citizens (Muslims only), second-class citizens (other monotheistic religions) and third class citizens (polytheists, pantheists, atheists, agnostics, homosexuals, etc).

As a Christian in a Muslim dominated society, you're a Dhimmi:

en.wikipedia.org...

A Dhimmi is supposed to pay the Jizya (ordained by the Qu'ran), a sort of special tax you pay because you haven't accepted the true word of God.

Turn that around and imagine an America where non-Christians pay a special tax because they're not Christians. Do you like the sound of that? Does it spell equal rights to you?

As a Dhimmi, you're also supposed to respect the following 20 laws (certain come from the Qu'ran, others from the Hadith):

1. They are not to build any new places of worship.
2. They are not to repair any old places of worship which have been destroyed by the muslims.
3. They are not to prevent muslim travellers from staying in their places of worship.
4. They are to entertain for 3 days any Muslim who wants to stay in their homes and for a longer period if the muslim falls ill.
5. They are not to harbor any hostility or give aid and comfort to hostile elements.
6. They are not to prevent any one of them from getting converted to Islam.
7. They have to show respect to every Muslim.
8. They have to allow Muslims to participate in their private meetings.
9. They are not to dress like muslims.
10. They are not to name themselves with Muslim names.
11. They are not to ride on horses with saddle and bridle.
12. They are not to possess arms.
13. They are not to wear signet or seals on their fingers.
14. They are not to sell or drink liquor openly
15. They are to wear a distinctive dress which shows their inferior status and separates them from Muslims.
16. They are not to propagate their custom and usages among the muslims.
17. They are not to build their houses in the neighbourhood of muslims.
18. They are not to bring their dead near the graveyards of the muslims.
19. They are not to observe their religious practices publicly or mourn their dead loudly.
20. They are not to buy muslim slaves.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 09:09 AM
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Now, people will accuse me of cherry-picking the 'worst' parts from the Qu'ran and taking them out of their context, etc. The truth is, there is no context to the Qu'ran, The book consists of 114 surahs, and they've been arranged in a decreasing order of lenght (longest surahs first and shortest last), ignoring subject, meaning, intention, relation to other surahs, chronology, etc.

There are also many peaceful and peace-inspiring surahs in the Qu'ran, who speaks of tolerance towards infidels (which does not negate the second-class status of infidels). Now, why do you have both intolerant and tolerant messages on the same issues?

Personally, I would say that the Qu'ran contains many contradictions, and it is perhaps the most blatant proof of it's human rather than divine origins. Humans, as we all know, can contradict themselves because they have not thought things through, or they change their minds with time.

Does God?

Experts on the Qu'ran generally talk about the Medina and the Mecca period. When Mohammed the so called prophet ( a Meccan) was banished to Medina, he was the leader of a minority sect that was profoundly ridiculed by the clans in power, and by the Jews who lived in the area. He was scorned, artists and poets even wrote songs and poems about his ridicule. He developed a hate against the people who mocked him and his messianic mission. Or rather, God uncompromisingly proclaimed death to these disbelievers.
While in Medina, the embryo of Islam resembled a para-military band of heavenly inspired pirates, who attacked the Meccan caravans to inflict economic damage on the clans that had banished him, because 'God' told Mohammed to do so.

But as the movement grew in size and power, and Mohammed finally moved on Mecca with his now great army of believers (by the way, the first to be killed as he entered the holy city was the poets and intellectuals that had scorned him), he became the founding father of a new religious dynasty. Unity, peace and tolerance now became important tools to hold a growing empire stable, and the messages from God followed the new needs.

The Qu'ran jumbles all this chronologically, but the Hadith tells us the way things went down.

Therefore, you have both messages of war and peace in the Qu'ran, and you can chose to apply any whenever it's convenient. Can you really blame Al-Qaida for behaving in more or less exactly the same way as Mohammed while living in Medina, or justifying their actions with bellicose surahs rather than peaceful ones? It's 'God's' word after all...

To make this loong story even longer, America is not the best example of what happens when you 'open up' towards a peaceful Islam. Spain is better.

Up until the 1980's, Spain was a Fascist state, ruled by General Franco, who died in 1975. There was no immigration and practically no Muslims living in the Fascist/Catholic regime at the time. After Franco's death, Spain quickly turned towards democratic Europe as a model, and started importing cheap labour from Muslim North African countries in order to build their industrial society. The Muslim community grew rapidly over a couple of decades, a peaceful community issued from moderate Muslim countries more or less influenced by the West and it's ideals.
Then, in 2004, the Madrid Train Bombing occurred, which Spaniards consider as their own 9/11. The perpetrators weren't Al-Qaida trained cells operating on Bin Laden's orders. They were just kids of Moroccan and Algerian origin, influenced by 'Islamic extremist' ideas.
The London 2005 bus bombings, another co-ordinated suicide attack, was equally perpetrated by Muslim kids from a supposedly moderate, 'peaceful' Muslim community, and the Paris 1995 bombings were perpetrated by a 'terrorist cell' from the same Moderate Islamic countries as the Madrid bombers.

Come to think of it, weren't many of the 9/11perpetrators 'good Muslims' with 'good upbringings', who attended 'good schools'? I remember reading hear-breaking statements from some of the parents, who simply could not understand what turned their 'children' into suicide attackers.

It's like if Al-Qaida was trying to tell us something; even these Muslims will strike you, the ones you thought you could trust...

So, concerning the mosque that will be built more or less close to ground zero, what difference does it make? It won't change anything to the Islamic agenda. Personally, I want to put the whole Islamic religion on a plane and send it back to the Arabic peninsula. Not because I'm an intolerant, racist prick who doesn't like people who are not like me, with my values. I've got nothing against Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Jews, Zoroastrians or any other religion that does not try to evangelize the world and force other religions and non-religious people into submission.

The difference between you and me is that you think you defend democratic values by giving equal rights to Islam, while I think I defend democratic values by attacking a religious ism that in its essence does not respect democratic values, but that profits from it while it is in minority.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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These extremists are known throughout the world to build mosque in areas of their perceived victories.
The Christian vs Islam argument is a stupid one. Do Christian extremists dominate the religion and kill people all over the world? No. But Islamic types do. Anyone what to answer how many time the Quran says kill the infidel ? I’ll help-thousands of times.
This is an obvious spit in the face of all Americans. I bet you people who support this would be upset when some red blooded American opens a pork restaurant next door to it too!!
If you research who is funding this you will see they have terrorist ties. And let me remind all of you the 911 terrorist were from Saudi Arabia!!



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Heliocentric
 


You have opened my eyes heliocentric!
Really? Islam isn't just a religion but tries to impose it's morals and rules on its followers?
Whodathunk tat!
To me the case is clear. 1st commandment, people! Its pretty clear that no other gods are allowed!



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by Heliocentric
 


Allow me to submit

After bringing the Israelites out of captivity in Egypt, he ordered them to attack King Sihon of Heshbon. So the Israelites "put to death everyone in the cities, men, women, and dependents" and "left no survivor."[14]

God then told them to do the same to King Og of Bashan. The Israelites therefore "slaughtered them and left no survivor."[15] The book of Psalms cites these massacres as proof that the Lord's "love endures for ever."[16]

In resettling the Israelites after the Egyptian sojourn, God instructed them to steal the land of seven nations. And he told them to "not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them. . . ."[17]

As a result, the Israelites utterly wiped out various peoples. An example is when Joshua's army attacked Jericho and "put everyone to the sword, men and women, young and old. . . ."[18] Later, the Lord told Joshua to do the same to the people of Ai.[19]

In obedience to the Lord's commands, Joshua's army did likewise to many other cities. The Israelites "put every living soul to the sword until they had destroyed every one; they did not leave alive any one that drew breath."[20]

If the accounts given in the Bible are accepted, there were millions of men, women, and children exterminated in this conquest of the Promised Land.[21]

All of the carnage was ordered by God. And the Old Testament contains other stories depicting him as acting just as horribly.

At God's command, the Israelites made war on Midian, slew all the men, and burned their cities.[22] Moses was angry, however, because they had spared the women and children.

So he ordered the soldiers to "kill every male dependent, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with a man, but spare for yourselves every woman among them who has not had intercourse."[23] Shortly thereafter, God gave Moses instructions for distributing the captive virgins among the fighting men and the community.[24]

The prophet Samuel gave Saul these instructions from the Lord: "Go now and fall upon the Amalekites and destroy them. . . . Spare no one; put them all to death, men and women, children and babes in arms, herds and flocks, camels and asses."[25]

Isaiah reports that on the day of the Lord's anger against Babylon: "All who are found will be stabbed, all who are taken will fall by the sword; their infants will be dashed to the ground before their eyes. . . ."[26]

Ezekiel claims that God appointed men to punish Jerusalem for its "abominations." The Lord told them to "kill without pity; spare no one. Kill and destroy them all, old men and young, girls, little children and women. . . ."[27]

In the book of II Chronicles, there is another report of the Lord's anger breaking out against Jerusalem. This time he "brought against them the king of the Chaldaeans, who put their young men to the sword . . . and spared neither young man nor maiden, neither the old nor the weak. . . ."[28]

Jeremiah denounces those who won't do the killings desired by the Almighty. He declares: "A curse on him who is slack in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who withholds his sword from bloodshed!"[29]

The New Testament's depiction of God is hardly more favorable. The book of Revelation states that in the end times, heavenly power and a sword will be given to a rider on a horse. He will be allowed to make men slaughter one another.[30]

Another rider will be granted similar divine authority, including power to kill with the sword over a quarter of the earth.[31] Later, four angels and their cavalry of 200 million will go forth to slay a third of mankind.[32]

This destruction is preliminary to Christ himself coming on a white horse, leading the armies of heaven. A sharp sword will extend from his mouth to smite the nations, whose armies will be killed by the sword.[33]

These acts by Christ are consistent with his teaching that he came "not . . . to bring peace, but a sword."[34] And they show that he, like his father, supports the most extreme violence as a means of addressing problems.source

Clearly anyone adhering to the religion of this book is a dangerous nut, no?

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Adevoc Satanae]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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You're doing exactly the same mistake as most Muslims do when I debate them Adevoc Satanae, you automatically assume that I attack Islam in defense of Christianity (Old Testament), which I am not.

Christianity is another evangelizing religion that has spread plenty of havoc and terror in the world.

I' like to put the Catholic church on a boat to a far away land too, and return to strictly spiritual values, for those who deems it necessary.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Heliocentric]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:12 AM
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This isn't a easy subject for a lot of people.
I am not from the US - But i do understand how this could hit a raw nerve with people - However IF i was an American then i would most likely be more concerned about that 100 year plan that's flying ATS -

I always had my suspicions based on the 'moderate' Muslim's ability to follow their Iman's blindly just like your soldiers do their commander.

Anyway to my point i was more taken aback by this :

"Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."
Speaking at a White House dinner celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, Obama said....."
Seems they aren't far away as they are already celebrating in the White house ?????[



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by Heliocentric
At first look, your post makes a lot of sense and begs for tolerance and understanding towards other religions, which is a profoundly good trait I believe what America is all about.

Then, I take into account that you're talking about Islam, and that perhaps your experience of Islam is rather vague and superficial.
[edit on 14-8-2010 by Heliocentric]


Actually you made that mistake, by pointing out that Islam is different than other religions, in being a way of life devoted to god.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by Heliocentric
You're doing exactly the same mistake as most Muslims do when I debate them Adevoc Satanae, you automatically assume that I attack Islam in defense of Christianity (Old Testament), which I am not.


Nope. Sorry but the assumption here is all yours. I never once said you said anything about Christianity, did I?


Christianity is another evangelizing religion that has spread plenty of havoc and terror in the world.


A little closer to my point.


I' like to put the Catholic church on a boat to a far away land too, and return to strictly spiritual values, for those who deems it necessary.


Then you toss in the Catholic church too?

Anyway. The point is you are here, on this thread, explaining why Islam is bad. You are not in a general discussion condemning all religions are you? Are you writing lengthy posts about why new Catholic churches should not be built? Or are you specifically attacking Islam? That is all good and fine on its own but the attack is flawed. Just like my Muslim friends have never once tried to kill me for being and infidel, I imagine there are Christian families that do not toss their virgin daughters to angry mobs in order to protect strangers. See my point yet?

You can quote all the crazy from a book all you like to demonize a people but the same can be applied to other religions so either let's all get together and ban religion in general or stop worrying so much about one in particular. This is America and when we start picking and choosing which religions have rights and which do not, then religion is elevated to higher standard than I can deal with.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by debunky

Originally posted by Heliocentric
At first look, your post makes a lot of sense and begs for tolerance and understanding towards other religions, which is a profoundly good trait I believe what America is all about.

Then, I take into account that you're talking about Islam, and that perhaps your experience of Islam is rather vague and superficial.
[edit on 14-8-2010 by Heliocentric]


Actually you made that mistake, by pointing out that Islam is different than other religions, in being a way of life devoted to god.


What mistake are you talking about?

If you accept the fact that all religions are different in concept, form and application, then Islam is different from all other religions, no?

Let's compare it to the Vedic texts, or Hinduism if you prefer.

Hinduism proclaims that ANY way that leads to God is good, therefore any other religion (than Hinduism) that accomplishes this is cool.

A message of wisdom and tolerance, wouldn't you say?

Islam preaches that there is no other God than Allah, and that Mohammed is God's (only valid) prophet.

It is therefore - in the eyes of Islam - the only righteous religion, and it is a Muslim's duty to go after non-muslims and either convert them, subdue them or kill them.

Not only is Mohammed God's only valid prophet, he's also the 'seal' of prophets, meaning that after him there will be no other prophets. Thereby Islam closes the door on all other religions plus all the future ones, depriving future generations the right to create their own belief systems.

Geez, if God wants that, I'm not one of his sheep.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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it is a bit frustrating there are 2 or 3 threads about this .... do I have to put answers in all of them ??? why not put everything together ?? this is also a reason why ATS becomes difficult to follow up .....



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 10:58 AM
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This is a racial issue. Some folks really are upset that Muslims will be near Ground Zero...oh wait, there are some already. But, of course, a Islamic Culture Center seals the deal for these bigots and gives them a reason to launch out such hatred and moronic behavior. Murdoch (the head of Fox) lead a "protest" against the Center being built. In the crowd, two Catholics who were Egyptian descent were there, also protesting. What happened? Well, of course, everyone around the two fellas verbally assaulted them...believing they were Muslims...just because of their skin color.

Let the Center be built and let these people b*tch and moan.

It's called Freedom of Religion. Don't like it? Too bad.




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