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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
We cannot simply assume that the killing of innocents is somehow just.
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise
Simply because David knew the punishment doesn't mean that innocent people didn't pay the price for it. And yes I am aware of the "Tribe Of Dan", though if they were so guilty, 1. god didn't punish the right ones, and 2, there is no specification of such guilt in either account of the event and such guilt remains an assumption.
Again, this still relies on the presumption that the "crime" of ticking god off makes it okay for him to kill them.
I disagree that common sense dictates we should not exist. Such thoughts are not common sense but are caused by the stain of believing an illogical god telling humans they are not up to his standard.
Originally posted by IandEye
Reply to post by traditionaldrummer
the essenes and othe jewish gnostics believed that satan is god and god is beyond all our senses. to personify god with mercy and kindness is ego-projection and narcissim. but making fun of that is even worse.
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Originally posted by adjensen
You may resolve this by assuming that the victims were not innocent, you may resolve this by saying that some "grander justice was met" or you may resolve it by saying that the whole thing is incorrect or incomplete, but you may NOT resolve it by saying that God is unjust, because he is not and cannot be.
Originally posted by nlouise
If we are going to presume that 'ticking God off' is not ok. We then have to presume it is He that created us to begin with. How can the creation dictate to the creator what is good and what is not?
Originally posted by nlouise
OP, none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace. Christians are the only people who will tell you that. All other 'religions' has some form of human pride behind it, whether it is works, or following the OT Law, etc.
True Christians realize that we could never be perfect. It isn't about what we have done, it is about what he did for us. We didn't create Him, he created us.
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Originally posted by adjensen
You may resolve this by assuming that the victims were not innocent, you may resolve this by saying that some "grander justice was met" or you may resolve it by saying that the whole thing is incorrect or incomplete, but you may NOT resolve it by saying that God is unjust, because he is not and cannot be.
Why can he not be? Because we wish to believe otherwise even in the face of contrary evidence? He does feature many other unbecoming human qualities such as jealousy. Why would unjustness be out of the question?
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I have a philosophical problem with such a thought. If a perfect being created humans, why then are we not up to his standard? If we're not up to his standard, why does he want our attention?
Originally posted by adjensen
Because, again, God's justness is a fundamental and unchanging part of who he is, so by definition, he cannot be unjust.
However, this is from our Christian beliefs, so you are not held to it -- but you cannot argue a deficiency in the Christian faith with an unjust God being a component of your argument.
Originally posted by adjensen
For this particular issue, we are not up to God's standards because we have free will, and we tend to make bad choices which put us in conflict with that standard. God could fix this by taking away that free will, and forcing us to make good decisions, but he has determined to not do this. He wants our attention because he loves us. Why? No idea. We're probably pretty aggravating, on the whole, but he unconditionally loves us.
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Originally posted by adjensen
Because, again, God's justness is a fundamental and unchanging part of who he is, so by definition, he cannot be unjust.
Is that not, no pun intended, a fundamentalist viewpoint?
A core part of christian justice involves the banishment to hell for the non-believer. Technically, one could be a mass murderous, child abusing, pedophile rapist, accept Jesus on his deathbed and be granted access to heaven. Though the nonbeliever who lived a charitable life as a good person gets eternal torture. I'm not certain this could be called "just".
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I have some philosophical issues here as well. Firstly, we can't honestly say that god's love is unconditional.
Also, the free will argument presents problems. If he created us he also instilled in us that free will. Very odd, too, considering that a being with the properties of the biblical god could not possess free will of his own. (If you are omniscient you are doomed to knowing everything to be done prior to your doing it). Presumably, human free will gives us a quality greater than the alleged creator possesses.
Thanks for the suggestions but I've read C.S. Lewis and some of the more revered apologists and found them unpersuasive; unable to overcome many of the philosophical, technical and moral problems inherent in the bible.
Originally posted by adjensen
Yes, we can, because it is. God loves you unconditionally. As a human being, this means that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you more, nothing that you can do to make God love you less. You may make him happy, you may make him sad, but he loves you the same.
...none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace.
... True Christians realize that we could never be perfect.
Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Originally posted by adjensen
Yes, we can, because it is. God loves you unconditionally. As a human being, this means that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you more, nothing that you can do to make God love you less. You may make him happy, you may make him sad, but he loves you the same.
And here we have a real disconnect. As poster "nlouise" has stated:
...none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace.
... True Christians realize that we could never be perfect.
And under these imposed feelings we are allegedly loved. How much different is this than the relationship between a wife and an abusive husband? Such a husband convinces the wife of the same: not being up to his standards, she should be lucky to be with him, she'll never be perfect to him. Her response? "He loves me. And I love him".
And this god is also not just love. As we see here the biblical god also has a penchant for hate and for very specific things.
Originally posted by adjensen
Sorry, but you get a big fail for this one.