Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
We cannot simply assume that the killing of innocents is somehow just.

But, you see, this is exactly the problem if you wish to continue taking the fundamentalist point of view. You MUST assume that this is a just act. As EightBits so succinctly put it, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

You may resolve this by assuming that the victims were not innocent, you may resolve this by saying that some "grander justice was met" or you may resolve it by saying that the whole thing is incorrect or incomplete, but you may NOT resolve it by saying that God is unjust, because he is not and cannot be.

Occam's Razor:

1) God, who is constant, is somehow just and unjust
2) Your interpretation of this incident is incorrect

Setting aside the existence of God for the moment, from your fundamentalist reading of the whole of the Old Testament, which of these is more likely?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise

 

Simply because David knew the punishment doesn't mean that innocent people didn't pay the price for it. And yes I am aware of the "Tribe Of Dan", though if they were so guilty, 1. god didn't punish the right ones, and 2, there is no specification of such guilt in either account of the event and such guilt remains an assumption.

Again, this still relies on the presumption that the "crime" of ticking god off makes it okay for him to kill them.

If we are going to presume that 'ticking God off' is not ok. We then have to presume it is He that created us to begin with. How can the creation dictate to the creator what is good and what is not?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I disagree that common sense dictates we should not exist. Such thoughts are not common sense but are caused by the stain of believing an illogical god telling humans they are not up to his standard.

OP, none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace. Christians are the only people who will tell you that. All other 'religions' has some form of human pride behind it, whether it is works, or following the OT Law, etc.

True Christians realize that we could never be perfect. It isn't about what we have done, it is about what he did for us. We didn't create Him, he created us.

The people in the OT were giving that credit to other gods. They were going after things that were opposite of what God wanted for them. Anything outside of what God desires from us, gives Satan the credit and the glorification. There are only 2 sides.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


The Bible isn't clear what the crime was, it just says God was angry with Israel. There are several possibilities why God was angry. Davids sin for taking the census was pride, power and depending on manpower and not the power of God. There was peace at the time and the reason they would take a census was to know the strength of the army. David did not need to know that, but his pride wanted to know. Perhaps the people also were placing their faith in financial prosperity and the military rather than God. This incident appears to come after Saul and his family broke the vow the Israelites made to the Gibeonites in Jos 9:16-20. They were guilty of murder and this was a serious offense against Gods law on Num 30:1,2.
God may have been angry the Israelites were not more loyal to David, supported the rebellion of Absalom and the revolt of Sheba. We are not told why God was angry or why God allowed David to be tempted by Satan to take the census (1chr 21:1). We are told in 1 chr 27:24 the final total of the census was never recorded in King Davids official records.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are the children of God and that the world around us is under the power and control of the evil one.
Heb 2:14b For only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.

Originally posted by IandEye
Reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

the essenes and othe jewish gnostics believed that satan is god and god is beyond all our senses. to personify god with mercy and kindness is ego-projection and narcissim. but making fun of that is even worse.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Agreed. To the Op:Good thread. Good argument assuming we can use the bible as credible history; It really is a perspective thing.

OP, thank you for being such a good host on your thread and replying back to everyone without prejudice. We all realize we are all going around in circles, because one side cannot convince the other that they are right.

Contentment in life is one thing, God’s love is another, and that can’t be explained either, other than perfect peace no matter what comes our way. I mentioned the tribe of Dan, etc. God is also very forgiving. If any of them today, would just go to Him and repent (no matter what bloodlines) of what they do, he is able to forgive, and things could be different.

Rather than debate with you any further, I would rather keep you in my prayers. It’s very hard for some of us to look at things from your point of view, and we need to keep in mind that you cannot relate to our side, as well.

If you ever wish to U2U me about God in the future, that would be fine. The only one that could ever make God real to you is God himself. I’m reminded of a phrase from the 8-hour movie “The Stand”, where Nick tells Mother Abigail that he doesn’t believe in God, after she tells him that God has an assignment for him. She laughs and says, “It doesn’t matter Nick that you don’t believe in Him, He believes in you.” -(We don’t choose Him. He chooses us.)

I hope I haven’t offended you in this thread. I got carried away on the David and tribe of Dan thing, and by no means was that to be directed at you personally. I’m human and once in a while I ‘rant’ when I think about the injustice going on in the world today, and especially when other brothers and sisters, in my everyday life, don’t see it. (I suppose it’s not their time yet, only God can wake them up.)

Aside from who you feel are innocent, God wiped out many of the evil-doers in the OT. Today He is letting them continue their course because prophecy must be fulfilled. The Last Days are a time of reckoning; who is real with God, and who is not? (separating the wheat from the chaff) I recognize (as have many others), that should those last days be happening in our generation, that I must fight the good fight, and be prepared to die for my Faith when the real slaughter against Christianity begins, unless God has other plans for me. If I die, I get to be with Him. If I live, I will see the return of Jesus Christ. Either way, I am content.

Good luck friend. I hope that God becomes real to you some day, because there is so much more to Him than can be explained. I’ll probably run into you on other threads. Thanks again for the debate, it challenged some of my thinking as well, so I guess both sides can walk away with something learned.

Natalie

Originally posted by adjensen
You may resolve this by assuming that the victims were not innocent, you may resolve this by saying that some "grander justice was met" or you may resolve it by saying that the whole thing is incorrect or incomplete, but you may NOT resolve it by saying that God is unjust, because he is not and cannot be.

Why can he not be? Because we wish to believe otherwise even in the face of contrary evidence? He does feature many other unbecoming human qualities such as jealousy. Why would unjustness be out of the question?

Originally posted by nlouise
If we are going to presume that 'ticking God off' is not ok. We then have to presume it is He that created us to begin with. How can the creation dictate to the creator what is good and what is not?

The bible makes it clear that ticking off god is not okay. However, we don't necessarily have to presume the biblical god created us. Even if he did, he would have instilled in humans a thinking brain capable of making moral judgments. By that capacity we have the inescapable task of determining the moral shade of the actions of others, god included. If his acts appear immoral why would we not call him out on it?

Originally posted by nlouise
OP, none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace. Christians are the only people who will tell you that. All other 'religions' has some form of human pride behind it, whether it is works, or following the OT Law, etc.

True Christians realize that we could never be perfect. It isn't about what we have done, it is about what he did for us. We didn't create Him, he created us.

I have a philosophical problem with such a thought. If a perfect being created humans, why then are we not up to his standard? If we're not up to his standard, why does he want our attention?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
You may resolve this by assuming that the victims were not innocent, you may resolve this by saying that some "grander justice was met" or you may resolve it by saying that the whole thing is incorrect or incomplete, but you may NOT resolve it by saying that God is unjust, because he is not and cannot be.

Why can he not be? Because we wish to believe otherwise even in the face of contrary evidence? He does feature many other unbecoming human qualities such as jealousy. Why would unjustness be out of the question?

Because, again, God's justness is a fundamental and unchanging part of who he is, so by definition, he cannot be unjust. However, this is from our Christian beliefs, so you are not held to it -- but you cannot argue a deficiency in the Christian faith with an unjust God being a component of your argument.

In other words, as a non-believer, you may use your view of God as unjust to bolster your non-belief, but the argument means nothing to a Christian, because it is founded in an impossibility. It would be like arguing against evolution by saying that the process of natural selection always selects the worst option, not the best.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I have a philosophical problem with such a thought. If a perfect being created humans, why then are we not up to his standard? If we're not up to his standard, why does he want our attention?

One of the things that intrigues me about you, TD, is that you have a keen interest in Christianity, ask good questions (many of which challenge me to think about myself, which is why I hang around so much :-) and yet you seem almost adamant about not picking up the basics of the faith. A couple of hours with a good book on basic Christianity would help you understand why we believe what we believe.

Invest a little time by going to the library and reading something like "Mere Christianity" -- even if you find it absurd, you'll have a better perspective of things. I'd recommend that book because it's one of my favourites, it looks at the faith without dogma and doctrine, and C.S. Lewis is a very good writer, so even when he digs in, it doesn't get dull.

For this particular issue, we are not up to God's standards because we have free will, and we tend to make bad choices which put us in conflict with that standard. God could fix this by taking away that free will, and forcing us to make good decisions, but he has determined to not do this. He wants our attention because he loves us. Why? No idea. We're probably pretty aggravating, on the whole, but he unconditionally loves us.

Originally posted by adjensen
Because, again, God's justness is a fundamental and unchanging part of who he is, so by definition, he cannot be unjust.

Is that not, no pun intended, a fundamentalist viewpoint?

However, this is from our Christian beliefs, so you are not held to it -- but you cannot argue a deficiency in the Christian faith with an unjust God being a component of your argument.

I'm not so certain of this. A core part of christian justice involves the banishment to hell for the non-believer. Technically, one could be a mass murderous, child abusing, pedophile rapist, accept Jesus on his deathbed and be granted access to heaven. Though the nonbeliever who lived a charitable life as a good person gets eternal torture. I'm not certain this could be called "just". There are far more situations we could plug into this formula that also yield morally dubious versions of justice.

god is responsible for killing everyone that died or is dead or will be dead.

lol, the buck stops there.

satan is a moron with groupies.

don't be a groupie.

Originally posted by adjensen
For this particular issue, we are not up to God's standards because we have free will, and we tend to make bad choices which put us in conflict with that standard. God could fix this by taking away that free will, and forcing us to make good decisions, but he has determined to not do this. He wants our attention because he loves us. Why? No idea. We're probably pretty aggravating, on the whole, but he unconditionally loves us.

I have some philosophical issues here as well. Firstly, we can't honestly say that god's love is unconditional. There are specific conditions in christianity.

Also, the free will argument presents problems. If he created us he also instilled in us that free will. Very odd, too, considering that a being with the properties of the biblical god could not possess free will of his own. (If you are omniscient you are doomed to knowing everything to be done prior to your doing it). Presumably, human free will gives us a quality greater than the alleged creator possesses. What better reason to be disgusted by something you love?

Thanks for the suggestions but I've read C.S. Lewis and some of the more revered apologists and found them unpersuasive; unable to overcome many of the philosophical, technical and moral problems inherent in the bible. In the end, for the christian it all comes down to the common platitude that one simply has to have faith. I'm just not built that way. I've tried.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
Because, again, God's justness is a fundamental and unchanging part of who he is, so by definition, he cannot be unjust.

Is that not, no pun intended, a fundamentalist viewpoint?

No, it is not. Fundamentalism is a specific approach to Christianity, but holding to doctrines of constancy is part of the Christian religion, not specific to any one approach.

A core part of christian justice involves the banishment to hell for the non-believer. Technically, one could be a mass murderous, child abusing, pedophile rapist, accept Jesus on his deathbed and be granted access to heaven. Though the nonbeliever who lived a charitable life as a good person gets eternal torture. I'm not certain this could be called "just".

Again, a basic tenet of Christianity is that God grants us grace that goes beyond justice, because the truly just result of judgement is that we all go to hell, because we all fall short of what is asked of us.

You are correct in your "death bed conversion", but overlook a key component -- repentance. It is highly unlikely that a person who led a reprehensible life would truly be remorseful in their acceptance of Christ, and without that honest regret, not the regret that one is dying, but the regret that they damaged and pained so many other people, there is no salvation.

The thief who was crucified with Christ demonstrated true regret and admission of failure, which is why his faith in Christ saved him "at the last minute."

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I have some philosophical issues here as well. Firstly, we can't honestly say that god's love is unconditional.

Yes, we can, because it is. God loves you unconditionally. As a human being, this means that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you more, nothing that you can do to make God love you less. You may make him happy, you may make him sad, but he loves you the same.

Also, the free will argument presents problems. If he created us he also instilled in us that free will. Very odd, too, considering that a being with the properties of the biblical god could not possess free will of his own. (If you are omniscient you are doomed to knowing everything to be done prior to your doing it). Presumably, human free will gives us a quality greater than the alleged creator possesses.

I recently had a discussion on this subject (well, on something related) and eventually ran into a "throws hands up" blockade and had to let it go. I do not believe that God lacks free will -- omnipotence means that he has to have it, and I do not believe that God's omniscience impacts either his or our free will, but it all gets very complicated and I'm left to assume that it's beyond my ability to understand.

Thanks for the suggestions but I've read C.S. Lewis and some of the more revered apologists and found them unpersuasive; unable to overcome many of the philosophical, technical and moral problems inherent in the bible.

Again, I suggest it not because I think that you'll "see the light" and convert, but because it will serve as a refresher for some of the basic tenets of this religion. You may come up with even better arguments as a result :-)

Originally posted by adjensen
Yes, we can, because it is. God loves you unconditionally. As a human being, this means that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you more, nothing that you can do to make God love you less. You may make him happy, you may make him sad, but he loves you the same.

And here we have a real disconnect. As poster "nlouise" has stated:

...none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace.
... True Christians realize that we could never be perfect.

And under these imposed feelings we are allegedly loved. How much different is this than the relationship between a wife and an abusive husband? Such a husband convinces the wife of the same: not being up to his standards, she should be lucky to be with him, she'll never be perfect to him. Her response? "He loves me. And I love him".

How does an entity exhibit the ambiguity of being disgusted by the human lack of perfection and falling short of standards, yet having unconditional love - but oddly with the condition that you had better worship me or perish forever?

And this god is also not just love. As we see here the biblical god also has a penchant for hate and for very specific things.

reply to post by faceoff85


So I can legitimately blame Satan for all the world's sins? HMM, that tells me that everyone is already forgiven and going to heaven...just saying.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
Yes, we can, because it is. God loves you unconditionally. As a human being, this means that there is nothing that you can do to make God love you more, nothing that you can do to make God love you less. You may make him happy, you may make him sad, but he loves you the same.

And here we have a real disconnect. As poster "nlouise" has stated:

...none of us are up to his standard. We are saved by grace.
... True Christians realize that we could never be perfect.

And under these imposed feelings we are allegedly loved. How much different is this than the relationship between a wife and an abusive husband? Such a husband convinces the wife of the same: not being up to his standards, she should be lucky to be with him, she'll never be perfect to him. Her response? "He loves me. And I love him".

Equating God with an abusive husband is ridiculous. An abusive husband is exactly the opposite -- he ONLY loves conditionally. God loves us in spite of our faults, not because of them. Sorry, but you get a big fail for this one.

And this god is also not just love. As we see here the biblical god also has a penchant for hate and for very specific things.

Again with the circular logic and trying to force God to conform to what you want him to be. However, you're not even right on this accord -- those are all behaviours, and God says he hates those behaviours. The old "hate the sin, love the sinner" that we're all supposed to practice.

Originally posted by adjensen
Sorry, but you get a big fail for this one.

I'll respectfully disagree with you. The "love" from god comes after you've been convinced of your inherent wretchedness and sin, and under threat of torment and torture. It's quite similar to many abusive relationships.

But let's get back to your contention: that god has "unconditional love" for humans. Firstly, the phrase "unconditional love" appears nowhere in the bible in any version. Though it does claim "God is love" in John, there are many conditions laid out in the "new testament" and "old", and such a blanket assertion of "unconditional love" remains unsupported by the text. Though many people want it to be that way and many claim it to be that way, they cannot point anywhere in the bible to reflect this wishful claim.

[edit on 7-9-2010 by traditionaldrummer]