Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
This stuff is real OP. It’s not just some phenomenon; even the other side knows that.

I used to think so. In fact, at one time I was involved fairly heavily in some "other side" stuff as you might call it and it certainly seemed very real. So real that I had a hard time coming to terms that it wasn't real. But I understand that you and the other person believe it is and though I do not anymore, I fully respect your right to believe as you wish.

It took me a long time to reexamine all my beliefs under the sharp scalpel of scrutiny and the application of Occam's razor. Once I realized there were other explanations for things that seemingly had no other explanation than the supernatural, life and the universe became a much different, much more beautiful place to be.

Anyway, I think we're going down a tangent here. Thanks for your kind words and respectful discourse: I tip my hat to you. I hope you're feeling better and if not I hope you heal soon.

You are probably much better off applying Ocam’s razor, at least on the ‘other side’ stuff. I can see your point. And from that standpoint I can agree.

With the exception of nature, I see the world differently. I don’t want to be desensitized to it, which can easily happen these days.

Thank you again for your sentiments. No fever today, just congestion and coughs.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


But we went through them and showed full well the ones you posted are wrong.

Don't try to change the subject or divert again. If you think you see a contradiction bring it up and I will teach you. until then, this matter is not a contradiction.

You either accept it all or deny it all. So if you want to pick and choose go right ahead, but you're failing at denying ignorance.

Now if you are willing to point out where the contradiction is on this matter or anything else be my guest. But I notice you claim a lot and don't back it up, so I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by nlouise
With the exception of nature, I see the world differently.

Oh, I'm sure you do. What fascinates me is that if one is to use the bible as a guidepost - and particularly if one derives their moral set from the bible - how one is to go about reconciling those things in the bible that are morally repugnant, at least by the standards of modern society. This is largely a major theme in this thread and the responses have been quite interesting.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Now if you are willing to point out where the contradiction is on this matter or anything else be my guest. But I notice you claim a lot and don't back it up, so I'll be waiting.

Wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round, huh? At the end of the day neither you nor the two storytellers in the bible describing the census incident could show any type of crime or guilt of the 70K people killed by god of an offense they had nothing to do with. Your contention seems to be that they just must have been guilty because of a passage in Genesis and/or the concept of original sin. All the while you refuse to see the obvious problem: there is a biblical contradiction in play that forces you to scramble for an excuse that you really can't provide. I'll give you an "A" for effort but a failing grade on making a convincing case for your position. Sorry.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
With the exception of nature, I see the world differently.

Oh, I'm sure you do. What fascinates me is that if one is to use the bible as a guidepost - and particularly if one derives their moral set from the bible - how one is to go about reconciling those things in the bible that are morally repugnant, at least by the standards of modern society. This is largely a major theme in this thread and the responses have been quite interesting.

That’s just it OP, modern society doesn’t have any real moral compass. None of the following list, by today’s standards, even has to be addressed under the 'moral codes of society'.

Abortion: millions of murdered children every year, what if our parents had done this?

Corporate Greed: The love of money more than humanity, can you not see it?

Genocide: How about OIL? We are the “good guys” because we have “friendly bullets”.

Sexual Immorality: Causing divorce, diseases, etc Brainwashing our kids in public schools that condoms are the safer way and not abstinence. Teaching alternative lifestyles to 5 year olds.

Facist Government: Can you not see it? God destroyed many facist governments in OT.

Witchcraft: Comes in many forms and not always under that heading, used to control others in a passive agressive, human sacrifice, etc.

Hatred toward others: Bigotry, discrimination, putting ourselves above all others, get the other guy before he gets you.

No Justice: The court system is “just-us”, and may the most expensive cunning attorney win, and has nothing to do with the crime itself.

Evil: As long as it can be justified or ‘paid off’, its fine by today’s standards. Usually works for the ‘haves’ and not the ‘have-nots’.

Genetically Modified Food: Killing those with weak amune systems and causing new disease at an alarming rate, (ie. Obesity, leading to diabetes) though lied about by the FDA. God didn’t create the food we eat today, Monsanto did. He who controls the food, controls the world.

Population Control: It’s “ok” when decided behind government doors, forget the innocent.

Medicated Society: We have ‘drugged up’ and completely ‘dumbed down’ society walking around in a fog at an alarming rate, but because its ‘doctor’ prescribed, it’s totally legal. Some poor ‘pot smoking’ hippy will find his self behind bars for doing the same thing. What is the difference? Money.

This is just the moral compass of today’s society. I could get into the list of those things which God is against, that will actually land a person in jail, but that is debatable too, because we have attorneys that can ‘remedy’ that. Usually the ‘secret brotherhood’ wins the case, but that’s another story.


edit: Didn't the Bible say that the love of money is the 'root' of all evil? How many of the things on this list have money at the root of it?


edit: had to fix the last edit.
























[edit on 3-9-2010 by nlouise]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by nlouise]

Originally posted by nlouise
That’s just it OP, modern society doesn’t have any real moral compass.

I disagree. Modern society does have a moral compass, though immorality is still present. Let's look at say, slavery. Modern society has rejected and shunned the idea of slavery, yet the bible not only condones it but has extremely specific guidelines about it. Same with blood sacrifice: modern society wholly rejects it yet the biblical god can be seen to demand it in the bible.

These are but a few. I find it interesting that the devout can read stories of mass killings, blood sacrifice, slavery, genocide, etc. and never question the character of the biblical god. How does one ever determine if YHWH is possibly an evil god?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Well yes they do go around, because you are twisting it to fit your view. I am taking it all as a whole. I made that flow chart. It works. There was no contradiction between the two authors either, I pointed that out.

This is not about original sin even. It's about a nation that decayed from a good nation into an imperialist sh*thole with all its people desiring war and destruction.

I asked you before. If 70,000 people all voted for war and hated another people and desired their extermination and could not under any circumstances be changed from their views, are they innocent? Is a warhungry people of blood and violence truly innocent, except for the children who know no better? I fail to see how they are innocent. Oh sure they have lives and maybe they live good ones. But that does not change the fact that they are actively working for the destruction of another people and their extermination for no other reason than because they want.

I am not scrambling at all. I am questioning held beliefs. I always do. Nobody here has yet to proven they were innocent nor guilty. So one cannot use the specific part as a stand alone to know this. You claim the authors couldn't find a reason to damn them. You fail to realize it was not their job to find a reason. It was their job to record. Nothing more. And when people become violent and unruly and desire extermination, total control, and separation from what God wants, it is time to bring out the big guns to show them the right way or be destroyed. It's horrible. God even said it was. But it is the only way to teach animals.

Originally posted by Gorman91
I fail to see how they are innocent.

Sure, because you keep on plugging "what if"s into the equation. Unless you can specifically identify the guilt of crime worthy of the death by the biblical god of those 70K people I can't take your proposition as being serious.

An analogy to your logic would be that the police should be able to arrest anyone at any time simply because at some point they are guilty of breaking some law. It simply doesn't work that way. Not only have you not been able to establish their guilt, you haven't refuted the way in which I've established their innocence. Again though, nice try.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


It does not work that way for man. It does for God.

I am not using what ifs nor am I making anything up. I am taking from the same book.

What was credible? I told you. They were animals. Perhaps you missed the raping and the pillaging and the war hunger and the desire for a dictator and the total insanity. Than again, you did ignore the rest of the bible to begin with.

Here is not a what if. Here is the truth. Israel was becoming like Nazi Germany. The kings were becoming corrupt. They had kings to begin with when God did not desire that. They were becoming savages. They were becoming animals. It is why they eventually collapsed altogether.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

It does not work that way for man. It does for God.

Then to support your case without the need for the specifics you can't provide you're employing special pleading. This is a fallacy and can't work in any argument. This story reveals to us just one of the many contradictions in the bible (that you claim, if I recall, don't exist).

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
That’s just it OP, modern society doesn’t have any real moral compass.

I disagree. Modern society does have a moral compass, though immorality is still present. Let's look at say, slavery. Modern society has rejected and shunned the idea of slavery, yet the bible not only condones it but has extremely specific guidelines about it. Same with blood sacrifice: modern society wholly rejects it yet the biblical god can be seen to demand it in the bible.

These are but a few. I find it interesting that the devout can read stories of mass killings, blood sacrifice, slavery, genocide, etc. and never question the character of the biblical god. How does one ever determine if YHWH is possibly an evil god?

Slavery: Are you saying that slavery only comes in the forms of shackles and race? I disagree, we are all slaves in modern society whether we choose to ‘believe’ it or not. Slavery is not always done in an obvious manner. Remember the Wizard of Oz, the ‘Illuminati’ movie? They showed us exactly what the plan is: The man behind the iron curtain, and a society of slaves with no heart, no brains, and no courage. The game plan? Order out of Chaos.

The Israelites wanted something to rule over them. We’re it not for God instructing them, they would have given their own freedoms over to idols. (Is that not what we see today? Look around.) Look at the state they found themselves in concerning Egypt.

Blood sacrifice: What do you mean society wholly rejects it? What is abortion? A ‘right’? It’s human sacrifice plain and simple (Satan loves it, by the way) God demanded animal blood sacrifice for atonement of sins. Not because the dead animals blood has any power. It was because people had to ‘think’ about their ways. If every time you or I had to kill some innocent animal every time we sinned, would we not ‘think’ before ‘committing one? The problem was (Talmud, evil at the core) people began stocking up on animals and committing the sins anyway. It was condition of their ‘hearts’, and they couldn’t see it.

reply to post by nlouise


Well those are interesting points, however, in both cases I believe you've had to expand the definitions of both slavery and blood sacrifice beyond the biblical contexts.

That being said, if you find some repugnance in your modern definitions of slavery and blood sacrifice can you overlook those feelings when it comes to the biblical god requiring, requesting or mandating such things?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise

 

Well those are interesting points, however, in both cases I believe you've had to expand the definitions of both slavery and blood sacrifice beyond the biblical contexts.

That being said, if you find some repugnance in your modern definitions of slavery and blood sacrifice can you overlook those feelings when it comes to the biblical god requiring, requesting or mandating such things?

That is the ‘context’ of the situation.

Talmud is nothing more than a manmade Rabbinical text, adding 600 more laws of Moses to the originals, and adding instruction that was used in order to break Gods original laws, but not in obvious defiance. (ie. Stocking up on animals to commit sin) (declaring home every few miles on Sabbath day, so that you could travel as far as you want to without ‘technically’ breaking the Sabbath) NOTE: Why do you think they ‘hated’ Jesus so much? He broke all of their Talmud laws and only kept the ones that were laid out originally by God. To them it’s blasphemy. If you don’t believe me try challenging their Talmud today. You will see hatred spewing from these people, like you have never seen. Their manmade laws are more important to them than God’s laws. The Kabbalist Jews practice their sorcery from the Talmud in secret. (Witchcraft)

Anyway, God gave the people laws to live by. They proved that they could not govern themselves over and over again. Moses didn’t even get down from the mountaintop to deliver the commandments in written form before the people built an idol (the gold calf) to worship it. The first two commandments had to do with idolatry. He knew what was going on down there. Why do you think Satan argued for Moses’ body and God hid it? It was just a dead corpse. Satan knew that Israel would build a shrine to it, and worship it as an idol? Remember Jesus’ transfiguration where Moses and Elias appeared talking with him? What was the first thing the apostles wanted to do? Build shrines to worship each of them.

Can mankind govern himself today? Look around, its all about ‘money’ which creates ‘power’. If you don’t have ‘money’, you are ‘power-less’. How did we get this way? While the ‘have-nots’ are running around chasing idols in their life, the ‘haves’ are creating power for themselves; no new concept here.

Did God wipe out ‘innocent’ people? How do you know they were innocent? Do you know when a person is plotting evil in their heart? Can you read the mind of a ‘religious extremist’ before he creates terror in other peoples lives? Do you think Jeffrey Dohmers neighbors knew what he was up to, when they exchanged greetings on occasion? How do you know that these OT people were innocent?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise

 

That being said, if you find some repugnance in your modern definitions of slavery and blood sacrifice can you overlook those feelings when it comes to the biblical god requiring, requesting or mandating such things?

Are these answers the same for you?

Is Charlie Manson going to physically die some day? Yes
Will I go into mourning when it happens? No.
Will it matter how it happens? No.
Did he do anything personal to me? No

I fail to have any sadness or happiness in his death. If some lightening bolt came out of the sky and took him, do you think the circumstances would change how I feel? Nothing personal but I have no sympathy for Charlie. When he dies I’ll bet he gets more airtime than someone else that has proven a good reputation does. That will be Charlie’s moment, and Charlie won’t even be here to see it.

This is how I look at life and death:

Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where are the innocents now from OT?
Where are the innocents that were aborted yesterday morning?

They are with God. Isn't that the goal? Is this life not a test?

Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?


It was 7.

FACT!

Originally posted by nlouise
Did God wipe out ‘innocent’ people? How do you know they were innocent? Do you know when a person is plotting evil in their heart? Can you read the mind of a ‘religious extremist’ before he creates terror in other peoples lives? Do you think Jeffrey Dohmers neighbors knew what he was up to, when they exchanged greetings on occasion? How do you know that these OT people were innocent?

With all due respect, your response didn't answer my question. But the paragraph above brought things back on topic.

We've been using the example of the 70,000 people killed by god because David's census angered god. We can be certain that those 70K people were innocent of the "crime" of David conducting a census. The story is covered twice in two different books in the bible by two different authors. Neither of which mention the guilt of those 70K people.

That example aside, let's look at some of the other killings of OT people. Job's 10 children appear to be innocent of any crime. David's newborn infant (2 Sam.12:14-18) killed by god was certainly innocent of any crime. The genocidal massacre of the Midianites (Num. 31) involved the killing of the male children also (along with all the men and all of the women who had slept with men).

While certain "crimes" are detailed of some of the people killed, there is no question as to the innocence of many of the people killed by god in the OT.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
Did God wipe out ‘innocent’ people? How do you know they were innocent? Do you know when a person is plotting evil in their heart? Can you read the mind of a ‘religious extremist’ before he creates terror in other peoples lives? Do you think Jeffrey Dohmers neighbors knew what he was up to, when they exchanged greetings on occasion? How do you know that these OT people were innocent?

With all due respect, your response didn't answer my question.

But the paragraph above brought things back on topic.

We've been using the example of the 70,000 people killed by god because David's census angered god. We can be certain that those 70K people were innocent of the "crime" of David conducting a census. The story is covered twice in two different books in the bible by two different authors. Neither of which mention the guilt of those 70K people.

That example aside, let's look at some of the other killings of OT people. Job's 10 children appear to be innocent of any crime. David's newborn infant (2 Sam.12:14-18) killed by god was certainly innocent of any crime. The genocidal massacre of the Midianites (Num. 31) involved the killing of the male children also (along with all the men and all of the women who had slept with men).

While certain "crimes" are detailed of some of the people killed, there is no question as to the innocence of many of the people killed by god in the OT.

I'm glad you explained what you and Gorman91 were discussing. I was going to ask, because I haven't really been paying much attention to that part of the discussion unless something was addressed to me personally. I will post back, I believe I have answers to what you just mentioned. I need to double check something.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise

We've been using the example of the 70,000 people killed by god because David's census angered god. We can be certain that those 70K people were innocent of the "crime" of David conducting a census. The story is covered twice in two different books in the bible by two different authors. Neither of which mention the guilt of those 70K people.

I know this is simple analogy in comparison but……as a child (maybe in school) one kid did something and the entire class got punished? Where did the attention go? To the teacher, or the one kid that messed up?
Next example is the movie ‘Full Metal Jacket’. In the beginning is a chunky guy who keeps hiding snacks in the barracks. Every time the barracks got searched the sergeant would bust the same guy with food, they would make him stand in front of the troops with the food in his mouth and eat it, while the troops had to do all the push ups. At night the pissed off troops finally attacked him with bars of soap stuffed in pillowcases and beat him bad, because they were tired of paying for his stupidity.

Can we first agree, that by God allowing David to choose one of three punishments, that he (David) was made the focus of his own mistake? No different than the two examples I provided above?

David was becoming full of himself, to the point he was bragging about things he had no claim to. (no claim because God provided that kingdom and its abundance) Pride is another ugly condition of the heart. People with pride issues are hard to get through to, even today.

The final straw was when David pulled the census. Joab even tried to stop David, but David did as he pleased, again it was the pride. Rather then just take away the kingdom and throw David to the wolves, God decided to let David make the decision on which punishment, and allow it to continue until David came to repentance. The fact that so many people were affected really shows the nature of just how bad David’s pride had become. It took him that long (70,000 people) to come to repentance, but he eventually did. The only way God can 'get through' is when our hearts are clean.

edit: David was their leader. If his heart was that full of pride I would well imagine the people had issues too, but that is conjecture.
Here is one more thought on that. If the condition of the peoples hearts were so clean, why didn't ANY of them approach David and reason that it was his sin that was causing the plagues? (Easier yet, David knew why. He had to choose it) Were they 'the people' not in a possition to petition God, and reason with him at all? Can't do that unless your heart is clean. There are many instances in the Bible of 'common' folk petitioning God on something.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by nlouise]

[edit on 4-9-2010 by nlouise]

[edit on 4-9-2010 by nlouise]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


No. It means God is God and man is man. It's pretty straight forward.

That said, why does God have to be logical? This is the same God that basically made Noah build a TARDIS, and does a ton of crazy other stuff.

Logic and God are borderline incompatible. Logic is bound to common sense. Common sense dictates we should all not exist for the horrible world we create wherever we go.

So yea, I fail to see how logic is even applicable to God. Not to mention this is way off topic to the original post. You either accept it all or deny it all. You still have not resolved this issue.

If you accept it all then they were not innocent. If you deny it all it is irrelevant because it is a myth to begin with and those people were not killed by a god.

Make a choice.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Gorman91]

You have a long thread here, sorry not
going to read all the posts.
This comes from my spirit.
We in the flesh can not change what is
written in the spirit world. I can only say
this, destruction is going to increase untill the
end. My father is still givening us a chance to
love him. He has given us everything(the earth) and we have
destoryed it.
I remembered when my earthly father spanked me.
BOY, did I try a butter him up, and for him to love me again.
I would say, our heavenly father is up to the same thing.
You want to sit in his lap and be loved.