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Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

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posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by nlouise
 


That is an interesting story. It reminds me of a common saying in skeptic circles:


I had a headache, so I took two aspirin, prayed to god, and my headache went away! Therefore, god is real!


So was it the praying or was it the aspirin? Here you are regularly visiting doctors and regularly visiting church. You become healed of your afflictions. Because of regular church visits you would have associated the healing with the cathlolic church, the southern baptist or the new church you went to with the elders; whichever was the last one you attended before healing. Yet curiously you didn't associate the healing with doctor visits and/or the resiliency of youth and/or the power of positive thinking. At any rate, I'm glad to hear that you got better from such an awful affliction.

Can we say god is real from an episode such as this? Maybe, maybe not. There seems to be explanations other than the supernatural. Otherwise, if the invisible can affect the physical world we could have tested the elders to determine if their prayer incantations had a healing affect and if so, determine the agent involved in the process. Without such confirmation and with other explanations available, should we apply occam's razor or should we not?




posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise

Whenever something goes wrong, God is the only name that comes up, as if Satan never existed or has no part in it. Not saying that athiests blame God, that woulds be absurd because an athiest would not believe in God to begin with(?!?!?!?) Those that point the finger at God could only be non-athiest. Correct?

It would appear to me that God is upfront on what he does, no secrets. It's the one that does things in secret that is the real danger. Logically it goes for people too. Know your enemy.


Even the atheist can look at the bible as a literary work and can comment on the actions of the characters accordingly.

Satan is mentioned as having killed in the bible and very specifically, just as god is, so we need not assume his actions behind the scenes. That being said, how can one overlook the moral ambivalence present in the bible: where the "good guy" (god) comes off as an anti-hero type and the "bad guy" seems relatively tame by comparison?


But the Bible is about God, his book. There are inclusions of Satan in it and warnings of his character, but the focus isn't about Satan it is about God.

Lets say I wrote a biography about my life and included insight that I thought others could learn by. Lets say that there was also an antagonist in my life that was out to destroy not only me, but others. I'm going to mention who this antagonist is and the attributes of this antagnoist and warn against him, but I will not base my biography and the goal of my biography on the life of the antagonist, because that is not what my biography is about.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Your argument is basically innocent of one crime, innocent of all crime.

What more can you say on assumption in your argument?



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by nlouise
 


That is an interesting story. It reminds me of a common saying in skeptic circles:


I had a headache, so I took two aspirin, prayed to god, and my headache went away! Therefore, god is real!


So was it the praying or was it the aspirin? Here you are regularly visiting doctors and regularly visiting church. You become healed of your afflictions. Because of regular church visits you would have associated the healing with the cathlolic church, the southern baptist or the new church you went to with the elders; whichever was the last one you attended before healing. Yet curiously you didn't associate the healing with doctor visits and/or the resiliency of youth and/or the power of positive thinking. At any rate, I'm glad to hear that you got better from such an awful affliction.

Can we say god is real from an episode such as this? Maybe, maybe not. There seems to be explanations other than the supernatural. Otherwise, if the invisible can affect the physical world we could have tested the elders to determine if their prayer incantations had a healing affect and if so, determine the agent involved in the process. Without such confirmation and with other explanations available, should we apply occam's razor or should we not?



I connected the praying for me with God, yes. (It wasn’t the tooth fairy. Lol)
I was a child, of course I went to the doctors afterward for other things that happened; chicken pox, mumps, ear infections, flu, etc.
The church we went to that night became our home church and where I attended school; non-denominational. Even today, I am not labeled under any denomination, my faith is in God, not religion or titles.
God used the elders that prayed, but the elders themselves have no healing power.
Power of positive thinking is a great thing, but at that age, I didn’t have adult skills to connect with something like that.
The doctor said I would always have it. All he was able to do was give me regular allergy shots. This whole thing took him by surprise, that’s why he sent us to the hospital to get the x-rays.

Ocams razor: the simplest assumptions? I see people do this all the time. Even as a child I was too inquisitive to conclude things by this principal, or else I would have not been so adamant in getting my own answers, I would have just believed everything I was told without question.


[edit on 29-8-2010 by nlouise] I'll get back to you on Ocams razor.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by nlouise]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by nlouise
Lets say I wrote a biography about my life and included insight that I thought others could learn by. Lets say that there was also an antagonist in my life that was out to destroy not only me, but others. I'm going to mention who this antagonist is and the attributes of this antagnoist and warn against him, but I will not base my biography and the goal of my biography on the life of the antagonist, because that is not what my biography is about.


Okay, but why make yourself out to be far more murderous than the alleged enemy? Why also would you give that enemy the permission to kill others (the only killings that satan did in the book)? The "old testament" is chock full of hideous and morally dubious acts committed by the biblical god.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
Your argument is basically innocent of one crime, innocent of all crime.

What more can you say on assumption in your argument?


God is fairly specific about the crimes that earn punishment. Even in David's case. Yet David wasn't really punished; 70K of his people were punished with death for his crime. He killed tens of thousands of innocents. God didn't specify their crimes. You haven't either. You simply assume they must have been guilty. Sorry, but not a convincing argument.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by nlouise
God used the elders that prayed, but the elders themselves have no healing power.


And there's the issue up for debate. How do we know for certain god did it and if he had that kind of power why would he need to use the elders? How can we rule out those frequent doctor visits and medical treatments as a possible cause? If there are likely natural explanations why would we first assume the least likely supernatural explanations?



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 





Can we say god is real from an episode such as this? Maybe, maybe not. There seems to be explanations other than the supernatural. Otherwise, if the invisible can affect the physical world we could have tested the elders to determine if their prayer incantations had a healing affect and if so, determine the agent involved in the process.


But God is supernatural, otherwise we would physically see him in our dimension. He opperates supernaturally. He's not just some orb floating around in space, chewing on chicken bones, neither is Satan.

The Bible says .....where two or more are gathered in His name.......in my case there were 3 elders, thats two or more. If I were to ask those elders today if 'They' healed me, they would say 'no'. They know where the supernatural power comes from.

If we asked someone like Benny Hinn, he would probably say "yes". But then he's demonic and that's another story for another day.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
God used the elders that prayed, but the elders themselves have no healing power.


And there's the issue up for debate. How do we know for certain god did it and if he had that kind of power why would he need to use the elders? How can we rule out those frequent doctor visits and medical treatments as a possible cause? If there are likely natural explanations why would we first assume the least likely supernatural explanations?


Because there is an order to things, so that we don't attribute them to things that can be written off. (Ocams razor)

James 5:14 (King James Version)

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Matthew 18:19-20 (King James Version)

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by nlouise
Lets say I wrote a biography about my life and included insight that I thought others could learn by. Lets say that there was also an antagonist in my life that was out to destroy not only me, but others. I'm going to mention who this antagonist is and the attributes of this antagnoist and warn against him, but I will not base my biography and the goal of my biography on the life of the antagonist, because that is not what my biography is about.


Okay, but why make yourself out to be far more murderous than the alleged enemy? Why also would you give that enemy the permission to kill others (the only killings that satan did in the book)? The "old testament" is chock full of hideous and morally dubious acts committed by the biblical god.


All death has Satan at the root of it, whether God does it physically or not.
How can Satan not be held accountable for ALL death, both physical and spiritual when you start at the beginning with Adam and Eve? Until Satan appeared on the scene, there was no such thing as death, spiritual, or physical. It was Satan who brought this into the world when he deceived Eve.
Afterwards, God clearly laid out what was acceptable and what wasn’t and those that chose to ignore what he laid out, died physically. Old Covenant.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


This has to be the most ignorant thread in ATS history. We all are forever dumber for seeing the title let alone someone reading it. God made you and Satan. All will die at the hand of God because people cant live forever or we would all be standing on-top of people just to walk around. Are you five years old or something?

Take your God hating crap elsewhere.

Yeah this is really what ATS needs to show the world community on Facebook, hey come join the rest of us ignorant thread makers and bash God.


ATS should remove these type threads not out of censorship but just to make ATS not look childish and ignorant.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 06:35 PM
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I have a question OP.



How do we know 'AIR' exists? Can we use the 5 senses to prove it?




[edit on 29-8-2010 by nlouise] Went back to original question.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by nlouise]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by Drummer
 





How do we know 'AIR' exists? Can we use the 5 senses to prove it



Also how do we know you are even capable of love or that anybody could ever feel love for you? Can you prove it? It's obvious you have a campaign against the possibility you are a creation and not just growth.




God is fairly specific about the crimes that earn punishment. Even in David's case. Yet David wasn't really punished; 70K of his people were punished with death for his crime. He killed tens of thousands of innocents. God didn't specify their crimes. You haven't either. You simply assume they must have been guilty. Sorry, but not a convincing argument.


niouise
I think this passage fits .

You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

[edit on 29-8-2010 by randyvs]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nlouise
 





How do we know 'AIR' exists? Can we use the 5 senses to prove it


Not in anyway do I mean to join this sudden dog pile on OP BUT,
Also how do we know you are even capable of love or that anybody could ever feel love for you? Can you prove it? It's obvious you have a campaign against the possibility you are a creation and not just growth.


I'm not piling on OP, not my intention. OP and I in a previous post were discussing tangible proof, and such. I was only asking a question to add to our discussion. -Good points from you, can't see love, how do we know we are capable or if it is real? Other things that can't be seen are NSEW directions, or time in increments, unless observed by some other measure.



God is fairly specific about the crimes that earn punishment. Even in David's case. Yet David wasn't really punished; 70K of his people were punished with death for his crime. He killed tens of thousands of innocents. God didn't specify their crimes. You haven't either. You simply assume they must have been guilty. Sorry, but not a convincing argument.



You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

[edit on 29-8-2010 by randyvs]



This part I am not sure if you are addressing to me or not. If so, I don't understand what you are getting at or asking, or saying.


Are you showing me the reference to something I said when I said I missed this part of the conversation about David?




posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 09:38 PM
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RANDYVS: Was the last post for me or the OP?
I went ahead an answered, but I wasn't sure who it was directed to because my name appeared on top.



Edit: misspelling is, should have been the word 'it'.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by nlouise]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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a little history of religion for all of you.

in the beginning when law began to form, religion was what kept people doing the right thing. religion was good, the people who followed them were good. there intentions were pure and hell did not exist. god loved everyone and he didn't need your donation.

then came worshiping, this was when religion took a turn for the worst. people have now realized that by being a representative of god, they hold power. from power came greed. this lead to the twisted lies. they either add or subtract the words of god til it suited their need, this was when religion was modified from its original version. god was altered beyond recognition by the people who needed him to be merciless. as such, wars were fought in his name, many were force to convert or die.

in the present, our religion continue to evolve, although god no longer spoke to us we can still modify the words that he has already spoken. even today, if you wanted to be married into a catholic family, you either convert or lose the love of your life. this is unfortunate and god had never intended for his good will to end up being a tool for greed and control.

satan is not a being who dwell in the underworld, we are satan, we betrayed god and his word. our name is legion for we are many.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by DOADOA]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by nlouise
 





RANDYVS: Was the last post for me or the OP?


Damn it . I don't understand how that happened but I'm sure I must have clicked on the wrong post. It was meant for OP but as always all comments are welcome. Apologies for the confusion. Simply my bad.



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nlouise
 





RANDYVS: Was the last post for me or the OP?


Damn it . I don't understand how that happened but I'm sure I must have clicked on the wrong post. It was meant for OP but as always all comments are welcome. Apologies for the confusion. Simply my bad.


Whew! No problem. I've had this happen to me a few times, by accident. I had someone actually cursing at me for a comment I supposedly wrote, not bothering to figure out that it wasn't me at all. I had responded to 'that comment', and because my name was in bold and not the original person's name, they attributed it to me. LOL

[edit on 30-8-2010 by nlouise]



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by DOADOA
a little history of religion for all of you.

in the beginning when law began to form, religion was what kept people doing the right thing. religion was good, the people who followed them were good. there intentions were pure and hell did not exist. god loved everyone and he didn't need your donation.

then came worshiping, this was when religion took a turn for the worst. people have now realized that by being a representative of god, they hold power. from power came greed. this lead to the twisted lies. they either add or subtract the words of god til it suited their need, this was when religion was modified from its original version. god was altered beyond recognition by the people who needed him to be merciless. as such, wars were fought in his name, many were force to convert or die.

in the present, our religion continue to evolve, although god no longer spoke to us we can still modify the words that he has already spoken. even today, if you wanted to be married into a catholic family, you either convert or lose the love of your life. this is unfortunate and god had never intended for his good will to end up being a tool for greed and control.

satan is not a being who dwell in the underworld, we are satan, we betrayed god and his word. our name is legion for we are many.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by DOADOA]



I agree that things have changed progressively for the worse with regards to religion and mankind. The greed of liars have manifested to the highest levels of the churches. That is why Jesus says that he does not dwell in Temples made by human hands. He dwells in us. We are His Temple.

However, I must also add that I am not Satan, he does not dwell in me. My soul belongs to the Most High God, as does all of His other true believers. We know who we are.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Drummer
 








niouise
I think this passage fits .

You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

[edit on 29-8-2010 by randyvs]



You are right, it does pertain. Murder is an abominable act in the eyes of God. If mankind had been left to his own devices the Messianic bloodline would not have been preserved. Satan went out of his way to destroy the Messianic bloodline so that Jesus could not be born and fullfill the old covenant prophecy, and make atonement for the ushering in of the new covenant. Certain groups were taken out of the way to see it through.

Side note: (pertaining to that scripture) That same thing still goes on today during the Sabats and at the Groves, in certain castles of Europe, and all done in secret. God knows everything and he hates it! When they build the new future temple in Jerusalem, he will detest their animal sacrifices too. They already have 6 red heffers and they only need 2.



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