Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

After I read your responses to my statements, I had to put apply the breaks to address something I see.

In order for me to accept and understand biblical scripture, I had to translate the book of Genesis and Revelation through science (Darwinism, Big Bang, and Geological Evolution, etc...), psychology, world history, and literature (historical aspects of literature). 'Almost everything' in the Books of Genesis and Revelation are metaphorical from my perspective. If you have not studied other forms of literature, sciences, and history, I personally don't think anyone can successfully understand the bible. God even mentions that mankind will not truly understand the bible until they reach a certain level of maturity; thus, I can only conclude that he was referring to both the evolution of knowledge and biology. It is evident throughout the bible. Symbolism is entrenched into the layers of scripture.

I understand where your confusion is coming from. As you can tell from my approach, I had to walk outside of religious sect beliefs to find my answers. I am a Christian who understands that God is a complex being, and he has a complex plan that humanity is trying to solve.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
No, he doesn't have that right. If he acts as he does though he shouldn't be surprised when people find a problem with it.

Where did your ancestors learn the difference between right and wrong? How did such a concept come into existence? It is a philosophical statement and its also a psychological statement. If God was not someone of science or psychology, how could he know that children learn their morals from parents? Hmm??? God didn't kill innocent people just randomly. As parents teach children how to behave, they are handing down their beliefs to them (Adolescent Psychology). Before the Great Flood arrived, the fallen angels of Lucifer came down from heaven and slept with humanity (Biblical Scripture). Do you see what I am talking about yet?

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Section31]

Originally posted by Section31
I had to translate the book of Genesis and Revelation through science (Darwinism, Big Bang, and Geological Evolution, etc...), psychology, world history, and literature (historical aspects of literature). 'Almost everything' in the Books of Genesis and Revelation are metaphorical from my perspective.

Okay. That's what I thought but thanks for clearing that up.

Where did your ancestors learn the difference between right and wrong? How did such a concept come into existence? It is a philosophical statement and its also a psychological statement. If God was not someone of science or psychology, how could he know that children learn their morals from parents? Hmm??? God didn't kill innocent people just randomly. As parents teach children how to behave, they are handing down their beliefs to them (Adolescent Psychology). Before the Great Flood arrived, the fallen angels of Lucifer came down from heaven and slept with humanity (Biblical Scripture). Do you see what I am talking about yet?

I think I see where you are going but I see a huge gap between the morals the the flood.

You do claim that god didn't kill people randomly. We could argue that I guess, but he did kill innocent people. I have already cited the 70,000 that died from pestilence that god sent while trying to teach David a lesson about taking a census.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I think I see where you are going but I see a huge gap between the morals the the flood.

Could you elaborate for me, so that I don't draw the wrong conclusion.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
You do claim that god didn't kill people randomly. We could argue that I guess, but he did kill innocent people. I have already cited the 70,000 that died from pestilence that god sent while trying to teach David a lesson about taking a census.

Interesting:
2 Samuel 24

David Counts the Fighting Men
1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders [a] with him, "Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are."

1 Chronicles 21

David Numbers the Fighting Men
1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, "Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are."

3 But Joab replied, "May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord's subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?"

Did mankind make an error in interpreting events? You stumbled upon two contradicting biblical scriptures. Lol...

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Section31]

Did mankind make an error in interpreting events? You stumbled upon two contradicting biblical scriptures. Lol...

Mankind didn't. Individual performance varies, however.

The stories are not conflicting, except in details, for example, prices and troop strengths.

The "satan" in 1 Chronicles 21: 1 is not necessarily a character. That is, it is the translation, not the original text, that "capitalizes" the word, as if it referred to the Christian archvillain. It may simply be a euphemism for the earlier version's "God was angry."

1 Chronicles is centuries later than 2 Samuel, probably post-exilic, and in this chapter, obviously derivative of its predecessor. The resort to euphemism may have reflected an emerging taboo against speaking about God, a growing understanding that attributing anger to an incorporeal being is absurd, or both.

The absurdity aspect has already been discussed in this thread.

The key thing is that God's grievance is with the whole nation of Israel, not David, or not just David. There is no textual support for TD's contention that God had a personal beef with David, and killed other people instead of David.

Also, as discussed earlier, this is visibly a fragment of a larger story, or one of a series of stories from which it has been detached, or both. There simply is no commandment against censuses. This census is God's idea. God was angry before any mortal even thought of a census.

The problem in the story is not the "census," which appears to be more like registration for a military conscription than a headcount, but something in the missing opening part of the story, or in the transition between this and some earlier story or stories.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


And like I said, you have no way of knowing they were innocent. We are talking about,a t the time, a very war hungry state. A whole nation that went against God. Go back in time when God decreed no kings, only judges. Israel wanted a king. This whole issue is letting Israel get what they want and the consequences with it. Why not wipe out Egypt all together? Because they were not all bad. They were decent people minding their own business with the occasional rotten pharaoh. Egypt kept to the boundaries they had and wasn't insane. Israel was only interested in trying to be like everyone else.

When a whole nation is blood thirsty, you do not know if they are innocent. The fact remains that the whole of Genesis and Exodus is about protecting good people and punishing bad people. There is no reason to believe God would change this policy.

I want you to explain how it is nitpicking? David: I want to be God. Israel: I want to be like the barbarians all around me. God: Go right ahead.

God cannot stop free will. And to do so would be against the whole point of the bible.

You say nitpicking but don't explain how. You say contradiction but you don't explain how.

You're words are not proof. You need to supply proof when you say these things.

reply to post by Section31


God:
Israel and Judah

Satan:
Israel.


David did not follow God's order and did not count all the people of God's people. Hence he did not listen to God. IE, Satan.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by eight bits


What stories "are not conflicting" in the bible? The whole book is nothing but contradictions. Either open up your bible and actually READ the words in it, or go ahead and Google "bible contradictions".

Just make sure that you have several days available of free time before you read about all of the Bibles contradiction, because you are going to need all that time. You'll be BUSY with them all.

If only folks would actually READ their Bible they would SEE this too!!

80,000,000 million abortions since 1973
Hitler 25,000,000
Stalin 50,000,000

just the major ones in the last fifty years.

reply to post by Baloney


As I just showed above, it was not a contradiction. And I am happy to discuss contradiction to you. Bring one up. I will look into it.

What stories "are not conflicting" in the bible? The whole book is nothing but contradictions. Either open up your bible and actually READ the words in it, or go ahead and Google "bible contradictions".

Just make sure that you have several days available of free time before you read about all of the Bibles contradiction, because you are going to need all that time. You'll be BUSY with them all.

If only folks would actually READ their Bible they would SEE this too!!

Hi, Baloney. Welcome to the thread. The topic is God or Satan killing people in the Old Testament.

We were talking about the textual variations in two versions of David's "census." Perhaps you'd like to join us.

Or perhaps you'd like to discuss one of the other stories in the OP. You know, something on-topic.

Thanks for the tip about Goggle, too. I was wondering how people found things on the web. It's so big. It must be hard to use.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Baloney

 

As I just showed above, it was not a contradiction. And I am happy to discuss contradiction to you. Bring one up. I will look into it.

I give you credit for asking for them as it seems everyone else simply tries to ignore the contradictions in the bible.

Here is a link of some. Take your pick:

www.evilbible.com...

I myself have even more when you are done with those if you need more.

reply to post by eight bits


BLAH, BLAH, same useless answers to AVOID answering the question. BLAH, BLAH.

Stick your finger in your ears and try to block out the sensible questions, BLAH, BLAH.

TYPICAL.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Baloney]

reply to post by Baloney


Oh that list? You mean the one that takes a selective view point on it? That list basically says that if you are green and say you are green, then paint yourself blue and say you are blue, you are a contradiction.

No, you're not. You just painted yourself blue and called yourself blue. IE, you did not contradict yourself.

Lame.

Specific examples. Come up and give me some.

reply to post by Gorman91


I was beginning to have faith that you were going to tackle that list that Christians flee from like as if they saw a ghost. Oh well, TYPICAL replies!!

This stuff is WRITTEN RIGHT IN YOUR "DIVINE" book for crying out loud!!!

And that "blue" or "green" nonsense is whats WRITTEN RIGHT IN "YOUR" Bible!! What the HECK you talking about?


EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES, INFINITY with you guys!!

EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES...

And hasta la vista, to you unless you decide to come up with something other than... EXCUSES!

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

And like I said, you have no way of knowing they were innocent.

If I don't know if they were innocent then you don't either, since there isn't enough info present for absolute certainty. Yet, you have stated an absolute: that god did not kill innocent people.

However, we do know that 70,000 other people paid the price for a grievance between god and David. This is unjust and unnecessary at very least and I will still argue that since the 70K people not related to the conflict paid the price, they were all innocent of the crime by which punishment was meted. Therefore god did kill innocent people regardless of whatever transgressions you could dream up that they were "guilty" of.

Originally posted by Gorman91

Specific examples. Come up and give me some.

It just so happens we're on the topic of a biblical contradiction. That being the differences in the story of David's census between Samuel and Corinthians.

Originally posted by Baloney
reply to post by Gorman91

 

I was beginning to have faith that you were going to tackle that list that Christians flee from like as if they saw a ghost. Oh well, TYPICAL replies!!

My oh my, you're quite the contributor, aren't you?

Ignore this troll. He believes that teaching your kids about your faith is child abuse, an absolute insult to all children that have suffered real abuse.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've yet to see anything posted by you that was above something a 12 year old would write. Planning on changing that here, Baloney?

reply to post by Baloney


You say excuse. I say how? Words have no meaning if they are undefined.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I showed you above how it is not a contradiction. God said to count them all, Satan said count only Israel. That and David behaving like God. It's the ultimate lesson. You want to be like God? Take on the challenge and look how humans do. David was a fine example. God switched places with David. And yes, it was wrong for all those to die. But God gave authority to David.

Like I said. Do you blame physics for the deaths in a nuclear bomb, or do you blame the ones who used the bomb in the first place. Are you going to say God is responsible because he chose to let David have his way? How else are you to teach a man who repeatedly fails.




All and all none of you have chosen you have chosen to quote a specific example, which begs to question if you even know what you are talking about. At least I study the things I argue. If I don't know I don't speak. You don't know and yet you do speak. Why?

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
I showed you above how it is not a contradiction.

Okay, you don't illuminate contradictions by locating the similarities. You illuminate contradictions by finding the differences. Yes, the census story in Samuel and Corinthians is similar, but contradictory in certain aspects.

And so it goes with many bible stories. Some feature blatant contradictions from passage to passage. Some bible passages make claims that are clearly contradicted by observation (demons cause disease, rainbows are a covenant, etc.). To say the bible is free of contradiction is not an honest claim.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Passages you've yet to show.


Also, not similarities.

I say again

God: Count my people

Satan: Do not count all the people.


CONTRADICTION. Simple. If you can't get it, I'm sorry for you.

God controls the earth with his religion.
Satan has a minority religion and shouldn't be right if he is the controller of this world (as told in the bible)
Swap god with satan and satan with god in the bible and i think you would be surprised.
I believe there is a misinterpretation with the names, simply.
Shows in the murders right?
Maybe god made it out as if he was the good one on earth through jesus, but instead he was killing and killing. This is new to me so i would like to hear some responses.