Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by adjensen
Stereotypes? You think a Conservative Jew is a stereotype? That the belief of fundamentalism is a stereotype? What on Earth are you talking about? Those are the beliefs that lead one to the assumption of inerrancy in the Bible, they aren't stereotypes, and they're the only ones you can make any sort of case with.

Gosh you take things personally.

Keeping it on topic, though:

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!

I don't see how that bizarre fantasy dialogue is even remotely accurate of our exchanges. Perhaps you should keep it to our actual dialogue.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


And you don't think eliminating the problem for anybody passing by is sensible? What exactly are the occasional 14-20 something bands of traders going to do against a very large town with 50 or more people?

This is comparable to thinking it was wrong for the Americans to assault the Barbary pirates. The sense and justification is all there.

God doesn't have to be at risk to being raped. The fact remains he did it for the sake of other people. Policing.

Originally posted by adjensen

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!
Random Atheist: Way to show that gullible fool, TD! Star and Flag for you!

I believe it's more like this:

Me: Here's a concise thread of the number of people god killed in the bible

You: None of that matters, I'm a christian and don't need to care about that and besides, I think this thread is all about you anyway!

Sound about right? Or do you want to stick to actual dialogue?

Originally posted by Gorman91
God doesn't have to be at risk to being raped. The fact remains he did it for the sake of other people. Policing.

Uh huh. So wiping out everyone except Noah was for the sake of Noah? You're not really presenting convincing arguments

Thanks for the info TraditionalDrummer.

I'm going to bow out now before i get banned for speaking my mind to my more deluded fellow members.

Good night all.

I disagree.

So, now that you've made it on-topic, please enlighten me. How can a bullmoose murder
someone?

Basically, yes. Capricious, unnecessary mass and serial murder is immoral and unjustified.

Actually, if it were murder, then it would necessarily be unjustified.

But then, TD-speak is confused with English only at the listener's and reader's peril.

So, you know it's capricious because...? And you know it's unnecessary because...?

You haven't actually shown that yet.

Many Christians believe that all this was necessary and part of a plan. So you disagree with them about that factual matter. Big whoop.

But since the disagreement is purely a factual controversy, there's no moral issue. Or if there is one, then it can't be resolved until the factual controversy is resolved.

That also puts paid to your idea that people in any general sense "justify," "ignore," or "excuse" God's choices. They merely disagree with you about the fact of caprice and the fact of necessity. As rational people often will.

If the facts are one way (not capricious and necessary) then the killings would be justified. If the facts are the other way (capricious or unnecessary), then they are unjustified.

So, all we need to do is figure out which it is. We have before us a factual, or if you prefer, counterfactual, inquiry.

OK, you're the claimant. Why are these killings, in fact, capricious and unnecessary?

Or, more immediately relevant to the breathtakingly obvious purpose of this thread, why should someone who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob believe that these killings are capricious or unnecessary?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Yea actually. That was the whole point. The whole Earth abandoned reason and respect.

And don't act like it couldn't have happened. In Europe. the end of the Roman Empire is a perfect example. Exactly who was innocent amongst them all? A people fat and lazy and uncaring towards life, a barbarian people unconcerned towards enjoying life and interested in nothing but blood, and so many other problems. By the time the Roman Empire fell all the innocents had run away into the mountains and began building what would soon be the castles and small religious outposts that would preserve the civilized world until the rest of Europe was ready for it.

That was the whole story of Noah. The world had lost its humanity, and so he took the few that were left with reason and cast away the rest. It's happened many times in situations recorded by historians.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Gosh you take things personally.

Gosh you have a loose attachment to the truth. If you rely on untruths to make your case, what is your case?

Keeping it on topic, though:

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!

I don't see how that bizarre fantasy dialogue is even remotely accurate of our exchanges. Perhaps you should keep it to our actual dialogue.

That's the "Cliff Notes" version of a conversation that everyone (save you, I guess) realized about 15 pages ago. Unless you want to change your "zero" answer? Naw, didn't think so.

Originally posted by spikey
I'm going to bow out now before i get banned for speaking my mind to my more deluded fellow members.

Thanks for your informational input there, Spikey, and for so adroitly demonstrating that, in lieu of useful input, one can always count on a star for a "rah rah" post in a thread like this.

Originally posted by eight bits
So, now that you've made it on-topic, please enlighten me. How can a bullmoose murder
someone?

That's not what I disagreed about. Try again.

Many Christians believe that all this was necessary and part of a plan. So you disagree with them about that factual matter. Big whoop.

Their belief is not a fact, it's an opinion. It looks as if you're the one who is rather confused about the English language.

Originally posted by Gorman91
The world had lost its humanity, and so he took the few that were left with reason and cast away the rest. It's happened many times in situations recorded by historians.

Huh? Historians recorded what exactly many times? Mass genocides by a supernatural dictator? Which historians are these?

Originally posted by adjensen
Thanks for your informational input there, Spikey, and for so adroitly demonstrating that, in lieu of useful input, one can always count on a star for a "rah rah" post in a thread like this.

I had told you many posts ago that this thread is about content in the bible. Not about me. I know you really really want it to be about me and I'm uncertain why you have a bromance for me but I must insist that at some point it would be nice if you could actually get on topic. Thanks!

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
Thanks for your informational input there, Spikey, and for so adroitly demonstrating that, in lieu of useful input, one can always count on a star for a "rah rah" post in a thread like this.

I had told you many posts ago that this thread is about content in the bible. Not about me. I know you really really want it to be about me and I'm uncertain why you have a bromance for me but I must insist that at some point it would be nice if you could actually get on topic. Thanks!

Would you like me to be on topic by pretending to be a fundamentalist, a Conservative Jew, or an atheist? Because I have long since given you the mainstream Christian answer, but you don't seem to like it very much.

This is, of course, a typically evangelical response -- refusing to accept someone else's belief because it's in conflict with your own, even to the point of demanding that they change it.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by adjensen
Keeping it on topic, though:

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!

Oops, missed one, sorry!

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!
Random Atheist: Way to show that gullible fool, TD! Star and Flag for you!

Haha, that's how is is here virtually in every thread.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Um ok ill bite YES God killed a lot of people but he made ALL of them and he never murdered 1. He is the judge he knows who should die and then its only the body he killed but it was a just killing.

As God told Job (the short version) I am God who are you to question what i do?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Well there is quite a few universals in every region of the world. That is a flood and a tree of life.

en.wikipedia.org...

So that;s safe enough to say that something major happened that all the cultures agree upon that only good survived.

And as to the fall of Rome, that's basic history.

Which all together does not answer the question I asked you. How is it wrong to kill those who would kill many more. God, after all, knows the hearts. It's clear he takes the good people out or saves them by taking the bad people out. God does not kill innocents. Occasionally man ignores or changes God's order and does so. But God punishes them much so as well later.

Exactly where, specifically, is there an example of God killing somebody for no reason; killing for the lulz, if you will.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by adjensen
Oops, missed one, sorry!

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!
Random Atheist: Way to show that gullible fool, TD! Star and Flag for you!

Haha, that's how is is here virtually in every thread.

It's unfortunate, really. While I don't think that we have the world's greatest thinkers on here (not by a long shot, and I include myself among the losers, lol) there really is a possibility of learning from one another and maybe developing an understanding (and even tolerance) of what others believe.

Instead, the focus seems to be on one-upmanship, flame baiting and relishing in the amount of hostility one can generate. There was just a thread by the site owner on this very subject.

I was recently declared a "menace to humanity" by another ATS member. My crime? Stating that I thought it was inappropriate to lie to my children about my faith, simply to meet the atheists demand in that thread that I not teach my children that I believe by faith is correct.

Frankly, a person must have a pretty weak belief to make a statement like that. If your beliefs are so fragile that you need to slander others, or lie about their faith because the reality doesn't meet your expectations, maybe you should spend more time looking at your beliefs, and less time trying to drag others down with you.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by adjensen]

That's not what I disagreed about. Try again.

Actually, easily fixed. I'll just refer to TDmurder from here on out. That way, there won't be any confusion between the common English word and your personal homonym.

Their belief is not a fact, it's an opinion.

I did not say that their belief was a fact. No more than I said that your opinion about morality was moral.

Example of a fact, a factual matter, and a factual controversy:

I believe that United States government employees visited the Moon in 1969.

If they did, then that is a fact. If they did not, then that is a fact. The matter is controversial, so the controversy is called a "factual controversy." It is a controversy about a "factual matter."

Contrast the belief that the visit, if it occurred, was an unwise use of the money.

That is not a factual matter. Two reasonable people, in possession of the same facts, can reach different conclusions about whether the expenditure was wise. Their disagreement is not a factual controversy.

/Example

Your English really is good for a second-language speaker. However, you need to have a wider experience of our language before you criticize native speakers.

In any case, the defense against caprice is long-term systematic adherence to a strategic plan. Even based upon purely literary analysis, I believe the story to be that God systematically adhered to a strategic plan for centuries. In TDmurder terms, his killings were premeditated. Hence, on their face, they were not capricious.

As to necessity, I don't have enough information to determine whether God could have achieved the same thing with fewer deaths.

So, I have insufficient information to conclude that these deaths were morally impermissible.

If we were talking about murder, then I would be morally obligated to acquit. The prosecutor hasn't made his case.

But of course, we are TDtalking about TDmurder. So, the prosecutor babbles about what facts are, rather than adducing any.



[edit on 18-8-2010 by eight bits]

The most fascinating, repetitive comments of this thread is just how many people seem to be self- professed experts on understanding the Creator, Master of the Universe, God, Omnipotent Being, the Devil, Beelzebub, Satan, Good, Evil or some just believe in nothingness. It’s amazing if there are these many people in just a small fragment of the world which have some inside tract upon the mysteries of existence; I just wonder why the world is so screwed up! (

Originally posted by AmosGraber
However, whenever people spout their uncanny knowledge of the mysteries of the universe, I often like to share these verses from that archaic, ancient piece of manuscript some people call the Holy Bible: “ As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18.

I'm not sure who you're on about "spouting" for, but I like to put these scriptural quotes back in their context. In this case, Paul is refuting Jewish arguments that the original covenant made Jews "better" than Gentiles, even if they are both Christians. Has nothing to do with condemning disbelievers like TD or anyone else, for that matter, it's saying that Jews are no closer to God because they fail him, just like everyone else.

Though you've cited it from Romans, Paul is, of course, reciting a number of passages from the OT, mostly from Psalms, as the best argument is to be made from the book that the Jews already were intimately familiar with. He's effectively saying "look, knuckleheads, even the Psalmist recognized that just being Jewish doesn't equate to being righteous."

That said, it certainly has relevance, in part, to us today. But to say that "no one seeks God," for example, is obviously incorrect when applied to everyone.

Originally posted by adjensen
Would you like me to be on topic by pretending to be a fundamentalist, a Conservative Jew, or an atheist? Because I have long since given you the mainstream Christian answer, but you don't seem to like it very much.

This is, of course, a typically evangelical response -- refusing to accept someone else's belief because it's in conflict with your own, even to the point of demanding that they change it.

I have already acknowledged several times that you choose to ignore this part of the bible and I'm fine with that. You still want to talk about your beliefs and your perceptions of my actions. I'd rather stick to the topic.