Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?

Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?

God created sin, evil and iniquity along with all things.

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version)
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

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There seems to be something wrong with the logic of these verses.

Was God surprised to find what He had created?

We are told that perfection begets perfection in a never ending line in Math 7 18, yet imperfection in the form of iniquity surfaced in Satan. It must have been put there by God Himself if Eph 3 8 is to be believed.

God is said to have somehow found it but as the creator of all things, He must have created it and placed it within Satan. Presumably to surface and have God find it. It could not have been lost to God so why the Bible uses the word found is perplexing.

We have to believe then that Satan was created exactly as he was meant to be. Perfect as God is only capable of, yet, having evil, sin and iniquity as part of his perfection.

If so, it seems strange that God is later said in scripture to cast Satan into hell.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking)epart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

If God gave Satan his nature and Satan followed His God given nature, as he must, then why would God curse His perfect creation seeing as how perfection cannot change to imperfection?
If it can and God is also perfect then that would mean that God could also turn to imperfection.

www.youtube.com...

For either God or Satan.

Can you shed some light on this issue?

You should know that I do not have much of a problem with the above because I think more as the Hebrews and Jews think. That being that Satan was never evil and was more of God’s Loyal opposition and that Genesis was not the fall of man but man’s ascension to having a moral sense that comes with the knowledge of good and evil.

www.religioustolerance.org...

Regards
DL

Satan aka Lucifer was an angel, and the angels had or have free will.
Lucifer used his free will to disobey God and got his ass kicked out of heaven.
He has been pissed ever since and grinds his axe upon humanity's base human desires.

www.angelfire.com...

Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."

God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God.

If God is so good, then why did he create Satan?

Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
( this is found in Ezekiel 28:15 )

Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.

Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness (This is in Ezekiel 28:17)

Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV)

"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The word "covering" is from the Hebrew word cakak, and means: to entwine, to fence in, cover over, protect, defend, hedge in, (source "The complete word study Old Testament")

Was Lucifer’s job to protect the very earth he corrupted? Was this one of his duties that gave him so much pride?

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

0 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

[edit on 10-8-2010 by slugger9787]

What gets me from the scripture, is how can something be created perfect and still not be perfect. If we believe that God is alknowing and it is impossible for him to make a mistake. Than Satan was created with the abbility to rebel, in fact God must have created him to do just that.

Satan plays a very important role in the advancement of humanity, without Satan we have no fall of humanity, then that would meen we wouldnt need Jesus to take upon our sins.

I personally think that the whole thing was planned out by God from the beggining Satan is a pawn in the game and is being used to, in the end make us more God like.

Look at the Tree of good and evil. Why on earth would God plant that there if we were not going to eat of it. Evil comes along with Free will if you are not able to control yourself. God wants us to be his children by choice not by force.

I dont buy the whole satan thing for one second. I used to...but had no proof but man's word on the idea. I later found out the king of lies, is man himself.

Its not so much 'lie's' as in on purpose, but a explanation for man's way to understand things.

In all cultures there has been a 'dark side' of things.

It seems to boil down to the human nature...as we learn, humans do stupid things sometimes. Sometimes its out of pride, greed, selfishness, lust ect...that we excuse ourselves to do things. Most of these things is when we are young and we are still learning about ourselves and others.

I dont buy the fallen angel bit...I dont buy that there was any mistakes or errors in any of Gods emanations. I dont buy that this world is not meant to be as God intended or that Gods plan got messed up somewhere along the line. Anything that is...is meant to be.

The closest I can relate to is the story of the braking of the vessels (outside of the Bible). It talks about how the higher (first) emanations were more perfect, for they were the closest things to 'brake' away from perfection. I think this is where older cultures saw so much worth in the first born...for it was the 'closest' thing to the parents.

I think we all have a dark side which is more connected to us experiencing 'life in the flesh' as separate individuals. I think we all have a spirit side which is more connected to the oneness of the Holy Spirit that is within all life. I think both sides are meant to be, and provide us with what we are in need of for this experience.

free will vs determinism
if created creatures, humans and angels, do not have free will then there is no point in the universe.
if there is no free will then everything is robotic and determined.

reply to post by slugger9787


Although everything could be robotic and determined, and you yourself would not know the difference. Just a possibility. I think in some divine way we are able to poses the idea of freewill, yet at the same time the Universe and humanity is on a path that is predetermined.

[edit on 11-8-2010 by humbleseeker]

reply to post by humbleseeker


without free will and freedom of choice then there is no good or evil.
there is no right or wrong.

reply to post by slugger9787


Well maybe it is just possible that, there is no evil or good, all that there is, is the present. Think about God he can commit no evil, its not that he is tempted or being tempted as we humans look at evil. God can not commit evil because he has no law or rule placed over him to create the idea of evil. What God does no matter what it is is good, because God says its good. I will not argue with God I believe in the Judeo Christian God.

Originally posted by slugger9787
Satan aka Lucifer was an angel, and the angels had or have free will.
Lucifer used his free will to disobey God and got his ass kicked out of heaven.
He has been pissed ever since and grinds his axe upon humanity's base human desires.

If angels are like us then why would God bother creating us?

You also say that Satan created evil but the scripture above says not.

Note the word all as God's creations.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by humbleseeker
What gets me from the scripture, is how can something be created perfect and still not be perfect. If we believe that God is alknowing and it is impossible for him to make a mistake. Than Satan was created with the abbility to rebel, in fact God must have created him to do just that.

Satan plays a very important role in the advancement of humanity, without Satan we have no fall of humanity, then that would meen we wouldnt need Jesus to take upon our sins.

I personally think that the whole thing was planned out by God from the beggining Satan is a pawn in the game and is being used to, in the end make us more God like.

Look at the Tree of good and evil. Why on earth would God plant that there if we were not going to eat of it. Evil comes along with Free will if you are not able to control yourself. God wants us to be his children by choice not by force.

I see.

So His free will to us-----do it my way or burn forever, is true free will and not a threat?
Really!
really?

Free will God style.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

If God gave a hoot about the free will that He supposedly gave us, He sure is an Indian giver all over the O T where He tramples all over man’s free will to live as He went about killing us at Sodom and using genocide on us in Noah‘s day.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I dont buy the whole satan thing for one second. I used to...but had no proof but man's word on the idea. I later found out the king of lies, is man himself.

Its not so much 'lie's' as in on purpose, but a explanation for man's way to understand things.

In all cultures there has been a 'dark side' of things.

It seems to boil down to the human nature...as we learn, humans do stupid things sometimes. Sometimes its out of pride, greed, selfishness, lust ect...that we excuse ourselves to do things. Most of these things is when we are young and we are still learning about ourselves and others.

I dont buy the fallen angel bit...I dont buy that there was any mistakes or errors in any of Gods emanations. I dont buy that this world is not meant to be as God intended or that Gods plan got messed up somewhere along the line. Anything that is...is meant to be.

The closest I can relate to is the story of the braking of the vessels (outside of the Bible). It talks about how the higher (first) emanations were more perfect, for they were the closest things to 'brake' away from perfection. I think this is where older cultures saw so much worth in the first born...for it was the 'closest' thing to the parents.

I think we all have a dark side which is more connected to us experiencing 'life in the flesh' as separate individuals. I think we all have a spirit side which is more connected to the oneness of the Holy Spirit that is within all life. I think both sides are meant to be, and provide us with what we are in need of for this experience.

Not bad at all.
I basically agree.
As evolving creatures we can and must either cooperate, do good, or compete, do evil.

I also agree on people being born perfect and call us evolving perfection.

I also say that our first God was a man and our last shall be as well because I think it true because of the above.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by humbleseeker

 

without free will and freedom of choice then there is no good or evil.
there is no right or wrong.

Not quite scripture.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was there before A or E exercised free will or were even created.

If you believe in scripture then Satan already was and evil before man was created.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by humbleseeker
reply to post by slugger9787

 

Well maybe it is just possible that, there is no evil or good, all that there is, is the present. Think about God he can commit no evil, its not that he is tempted or being tempted as we humans look at evil. God can not commit evil because he has no law or rule placed over him to create the idea of evil. What God does no matter what it is is good, because God says its good. I will not argue with God I believe in the Judeo Christian God.

So all the killing that God does in the O T including Sodom and Noah's genocide, innocent children and babies was a good thing?

Really?
Genocide of man is good! Hitler and Stalin will be pleased as they sit beside God in heaven.

Any God who can cure as easily as kill and chooses to kill is immoral to the max.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Ways means actions and behaviors, implying free will.
then iniquity was found in you. separate from and deeper that actions.


16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

because of the resulting behavior you are selling yourself as greater than me, says God, and this is sin, so out you go.

reply to post by Greatest I am


greatest am i,
or whatever, good to see you struggling psychologically with your vices and virtues, and becoming terror filled as you try to blame God for your erroneous choices.
you might ought to rename yourself one day from greatest i am to just second greatest i am.

actually God kills everyone sooner or later.

then he does an accounting.
he discovers "How well and willingly did you follow my religion while you were in your physical body?"

a hell of a lot of people at that time will crap their pants.

See it is better to come clean in the here than in the hereafter.

some die at two days old, some at ten years, some at 102 years, in a multitude of means and manners.

but that is just the temporal body that dies, the eternal soul lives forever, one place or the other, and in the end it will not be able to be blamed on God.

God is not immoral he is God, and we are not. If Godchooses to do something no matter how we feel about it, then that is that. Putting ourselves in the postion of God makes us evil. I believe this is what satan was created to do. He must h ave been created so great and powerfull that his nature was to one day rebel against his creator. We humans fall under the same curse as Satan, when we rebel against our creator. We are created in the image of God and able to see ourselves as god's unto ourselves. This makes us unable from not commiting sin. Basically to be sin free is an impossibility. This seems unfair although God created it this way. I believe that God wants true sons those who will put themselves under the blood of Jesus inorder to be santified before him. God hiimself knowing that we are evil creatures born evil from the beginning. Hence alll things work together for good. It is the answer to freewill, to create what is free will be impossible to control unless submission comes voluntarily, after first eating of the tree of good and evil. This divine plan that is only taken in by faith in Christ.

reply to post by humbleseeker


i agree
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