It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by rnaa
Source: Jefferson on Politics & Government
"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition; and believing as I do that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights, and especially that the evils flowing from the duperies of the people are less injurious than those from the egoism of their agents, I am a friend to that composition of government which has in it the most of this ingredient." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23
How about I put emphasis on a different part of the quote you posted? The part of the quote that says, "and believing as I do that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights, and especially that the evils flowing from the duperies of the people are less injurious than those from the egoism of their agents..." Right there is the Republic (representation) for the State Governments...In that the People elect their own Legislature already, without changing at all the Constitution for the US Government.
"and believing as I do that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights,"
and especially that the evils flowing from the duperies of the people are less injurious than those from the egoism of their agents...
"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea, I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens. Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19
"I have such reliance on the good sense of the body of the people and the honesty of their leaders that I am not afraid of their letting things go wrong to any length in any cause." --Thomas Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1788. ME 6:430
"The whole body of the nation is the sovereign legislative, judiciary, and executive power for itself. The inconvenience of meeting to exercise these powers in person, and their inaptitude to exercise them, induce them to appoint special organs to declare their legislative will, to judge and to execute it. It is the will of the nation which makes the law obligatory; it is their will which creates or annihilates the organ which is to declare and announce it. They may do it by a single person, as an emperor of Russia (constituting his declarations evidence of their will), or by a few persons, as the aristocracy of Venice, or by a complication of councils, as in our former regal government or our present republican one. The law being law because it is the will of the nation, is not changed by their changing the organ through which they choose to announce their future will; no more than the acts I have done by one attorney lose their obligation by my changing or discontinuing that attorney." --Thomas Jefferson to Edmund Randolph, 1799. ME 10:126
"Democrats... consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them, therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent." --Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1825. ME 16:96
Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
The Founding Fathers knew history...And how Democracy always degenerates into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
The main problem is that, when the majority votes away Rights for anyone, it's usually without ever realizing that once those Rights are gone, they're gone for everybody.
When we have idiots like this in government, I am glad #2 was put into the Constitution.
"While the principles of our Constitution give just latitude to inquiry, every citizen faithful to it will deem embodied expressions of discontent and open outrages of law and patriotism as dishonorable as they are injurious." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Leesburg Citizens, 1809.
"The following [addition to the Bill of Rights] would have pleased me: The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or otherwise to publish anything but false facts affecting injuriously the life, liberty or reputation of others, or affecting the peace of the [United States] with foreign nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:450, Papers 15:367
"I acknowledge the right of voluntary associations for laudable purposes and in moderate numbers. I acknowledge, too, the expediency for revolutionary purposes of general associations coextensive with the nation. But where, as in our case, no abuses call for revolution, voluntary associations so extensive as to grapple with and control the government, should such be or become their purpose, are dangerous machines and should be frowned down in every well regulated government." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1822.
"In no country on earth is [a disposition to oppose the law by force] so impracticable as in one where every man feels a vital interest in maintaining the authority of the laws, and instantly engages in it as in his own personal cause." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Smith, 1808. ME 12:62
"In a country whose constitution is derived from the will of the people directly expressed by their free suffrages, where the principal executive functionaries and those of the legislature are renewed by them at short periods, where under the character of jurors they exercise in person the greatest portion of the judiciary powers, where the laws are consequently so formed and administered as to bear with equal weight and favor on all, restraining no man in the pursuits of honest industry and securing to every one the property which that acquires, it would not be supposed that any safeguards could be needed against insurrection or enterprise on the public peace or authority. The laws, however, aware that these should not be trusted to moral restraints only, have wisely provided punishments for these crimes when committed." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806. ME 3:418
"The paradox with me is how any friend to the union of our country can, in conscience, contribute a cent to the maintenance of anyone who perverts the sanctity of his desk to the open inculcation of rebellion, civil war, dissolution of government, and the miseries of anarchy." --Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1815. ME 14:235
"Military assemblies will not only keep alive the jealousies and fears of the civil government, but give ground for these fears and jealousies. For when men meet together, they will make business if they have none; they will collate their grievances, some real, some imaginary, all highly painted; they will communicate to each other the sparks of discontent; and these may engender a flame which will consume their particular, as well as the general happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90
"The first principle of republicanism is that the lex majoris partis is the fundamental law of every society of individuals of equal rights; to consider the will of the society enounced by the majority of a single vote as sacred as if unanimous is the first of all lessons in importance, yet the last which is thoroughly learnt. This law once disregarded, no other remains but that of force, which ends necessarily in military despotism." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1817. ME 15:127
"All... being equally free, no one has a right to say what shall be law for the others. Our way is to put these questions to the vote, and to consider that as law for which the majority votes." --Thomas Jefferson: Address to the Cherokee Nation, 1809. ME 16:456
"The voice of the majority decides. For the lex majoris partis is the law of all councils, elections, etc., where not otherwise expressly provided." --Thomas Jefferson: Parliamentary Manual, 1800. ME 2:420
"Every man, and every body of men on earth, possesses the right of self-government. They receive it with their being from the hand of nature. Individuals exercise it by their single will; collections of men by that of their majority; for the law of the majority is the natural law of every society of men." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Residence Bill, 1790. ME 3:60
"If we are faithful to our country, if we acquiesce, with good will, in the decisions of the majority, and the nation moves in mass in the same direction, although it may not be that which every individual thinks best, we have nothing to fear from any quarter." --Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:321
"Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them." --Thomas Jefferson to Annapolis Citizens, 1809. ME 16:337
"[Bear] always in mind that a nation ceases to be republican only when the will of the majority ceases to be the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to the Citizens of Adams County, Pa., 1808. ME 12:18
"[A faction's] newspapers say rebellion, and that they will not remain united with us unless we will permit them to govern the majority. If this be their purpose, their anti-republican spirit, it ought to be met at once. But a government like ours should be slow in believing this, should put forth its whole might when necessary to suppress it, and promptly return to the paths of reconciliation. The extent of our country secures it, I hope, from the vindictive passions of the petty incorporations of Greece." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1812. ME 13:162
Hopefully, you are not a Stack fan.
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Originally posted by rnaa
"and believing as I do that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights,"
Jefferson is here saying that he believes that democracy (the mass of the citizens) is the best way for people to protect their rights
Originally posted by rnaaJefferson is here saying that be believes that the mistakes that people (that is, 'the mass of citizens') make are less harmful than those that their representatives (the agents).
Originally posted by rnaaConsider this statement from Jefferson:
"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea, I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens. Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19
He uses a different definition of a Republic than I use, because he generally uses the word "republic" as a shorthand for "democratic republic". When he is discussing non-democratic republics, he consistently derides them as evil ("To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep." - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:64)
...I never denied that the Constitution includes some aspects of Democracy, only that it limits the government from becoming a pure Democracy...
And this is also where the democratic elections in State legislatures (in absence of the 17th Amendment) still carried up into US Senate elections also...If the People don't like the State's election of US Senators, then the People can bring their grievances to bear more efficiently upon the State legislature & demand a Recall on the US Senator.
Source: www.wordiq.com...
Before 1913, senators were seen (in the ideal) as representing the States to the Federal Union, and representatives were seen as representing local blocs of the people. Though the reality may well have differed, the theory was quite different from what the 17th amendment created - a local representative and a state-wide "representative at large."
Source: www.senate.gov
Intimidation and bribery marked some of the states' selection of senators. Nine bribery cases were brought before the Senate between 1866 and 1906. In addition, forty-five deadlocks occurred in twenty states between 1891 and 1905, resulting in numerous delays in seating senators. In 1899, problems in electing a senator in Delaware were so acute that the state legislature did not send a senator to Washington for four years.
You also seem to disregard that America was established as a Constitutional Republic
...Even though it includes some democratic functions, they are limited by the "Constitutional" part of the "Republic." The Will of the People must be heard through representatives selected by the Due Process of the Republic...But that Will must be rightful & therefore filtered through the limited Powers of the representatives.
Jefferson (& many other Founding Fathers) knew that the Will of the People must not be used in the "heat of the moment," as in the case for a pure Democracy,
But this does not change these two facts:
1: The 17th Amendment did not specifically change anything about Article 4, section 4
& stands in direct conflict with it.
2: Just as the 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment, means that the 17th Amendment can still be repealed with another specifically-defined Amendment.
It seems to me that the goal was fulfilled by a Constitutional Republic, in that it limits Democracy & Republic alike by establishing those very same "rules established by the majority" that you've quoted. This is what it means to "limit the government" itself, while retaining the smallest amount of limits on the People...
... government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens....
Originally posted by rnaa
I understand what you are trying to say, but the spin you are putting on it extremely labored.
Originally posted by rnaa
The procedure for removing a Senator from office if need be was not changed in any way by the 17th amendment. So that is a moot point, and recall is a 'democratic' process, not a 'representative' one.
Originally posted by rnaa
Third, there is the incontrovertible fact that incompetence, corruption, and outside interference, denied several States of any representation in the Senate what-so-ever for years on end.
Originally posted by rnaa
Jefferson was not involved in writing the Constitution (he was in France). He was however, of the opinion that while 'pure' democracy was an ideal, it was impractical in a large, geographically remote country. He had more confidence in the people than you give him credit for.
Originally posted by rnaaIn short, if 17 is 'in direct conflict' with A4S4, then so is Article 1 Section 2. That doesn't make sense does it, the Authors putting in two clauses in the unamended original text that are in direct conflict with each other?
Originally posted by rnaa
Reducing democratic processes in the greatest democratic republic on the face of the earth is a step backwards.
Originally posted by rnaaYou introduced the fake Jefferson quote into the argument in order to use his mojo to back up your anti-democratic argument.
Originally posted by mryanbrown
rnaa must own a copy of every thing every written by Hamilton.
One good example is how the Progressives used to call themselves Neo-Cons...
What the 17th Amendment does is violates Article 4, Section 4 by creating more democracy at the expense of the eliminating the Republic guaranteed to the States, all without addressing the violation itself. Since Article 4, Section 4 was not specifically amended by any Amendment (let alone the 17th) or overruled by the Judicial (not that the Judicial could lawfully eliminate whole Sections anyway), it became violated instead.
And you seem to lack taking any notice that the House of Representatives is doing exactly that very same thing, right now...And have been doing so for quite some time already (only they've been doing so more openly as of late).
To which Clause of A1S2 are you referring?
A1S2: (first sentence)
The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature.
One last thing to cover for this post:
Originally posted by rnaaYou introduced the fake Jefferson quote into the argument in order to use his mojo to back up your anti-democratic argument.
I have never used "fake quotes" from anybody, on ATS or anywhere else I post, so leave your baseless accusations to yourself, thank you very much.
Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
The Founding Fathers knew history...And how Democracy always degenerates into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
There is exactly one Amendment that specifically amends another part of the Constitution: the 21st repeals the 18th. No other amendment references any other provision, the amendments just say 'it doesn't matter how it used to work, this is how we do things NOW'. So even if the 17th did have an effect on A4S4, it doesn't have to specifically say so. No amendment except 21 does. The 13 amendment didn't specifically change the three fifths rule for example.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, chosen by the legislature thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote.
Immediately after they shall be assembled in consequence of the first election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three classes. The seats of the Senators of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year, of the second class at the expiration of the fourth year, and the third class at the expiration of the sixth year, so that one third may be chosen every second year; and if vacancies happen by resignation, or otherwise, during the recess of the legislature of any state, the executive thereof may make temporary appointments until the next meeting of the legislature, which shall then fill such vacancies.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.
When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.
What a load of horse manure! The 17th Amendment most certainly does Amend another part of The Constitution and that is Article I, Section 3, Clauses 1 and 2.
From Wikipedia: Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
The Seventeenth Amendment restates the first paragraph of Article I, § 3 of the Constitution, but replaces the phrase "chosen by the Legislature thereof" with "elected by the people thereof".
The amendment also supersedes part of the second paragraph of Article I, § 3. The phrase "and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies" is superseded by the second paragraph of the amendment.
Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, the 17th Amendment has never been challenged for its unconstitutionality.
It may be your little fantasy that a Constitutional Amendment can fundamentally alter the original document,
but beyond the 17th Amendment, which clearly does alter the Constitution, you would be hard pressed to find an Amendment that does so.
...
There is no Amendment, outside of the 17th Amendment, that clearly and unabashedly alters the original document.
The 21st Amendment repeals the 18th Amendment and rightfully so as Congress clearly overstepped their bounds with that prohibition placed upon the people, and the people, quite understandably, told the federal government to piss off.