"We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation"

Originally posted by Hudson
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Less time than it apparently took you too. Since your whole opening piece is based on nothing but, and all your arguments.

No, I didn't. The thread is about Muslims who are against the mosque. Another inconvenient fact for you to ignore.

It says where a piece of the 9-11 wreckage fell. Not where a piece of the planes fell.

This ridiculous sentence exemplifies why you should be ignored as a troll. The plane became wreckage when the Islamic terrorists crashed in to the towers. The landing gear flew out and landed in this building.

Show me a government forensic report that details and photographs the wreckage please. The article you quoted does not display it's source for the claim.

Who, what, why, when, how and where of journalism please.

Prove to me that they are actually Muslims and not the Mossad pretending to be Muslims.

Display the context in which the interview was conducted. Prove that the majority of Muslims believe that to be true.

It's a incendiary piece written for people that are easily manipulated along emotional lines.

Highly biased and you have already displayed you know next to nothing about the issue.

Welcome to ATS!

By the way you can't even prove they were Islamic Terrorists as ten years later no formal charges have been filed and no evidence presented in Court.

I don't know about you but I am an American born and raised, and I know when Constitutional Standards have been purposefully ignored.

Thanks.

If we were at war with Islam then this indeed would be a "provocation" and if we were at war with Islam we'd be facing an army of more than 1.25 Billion potential militants.

The reality is that Islamic extremists are seeking to both provoke such a war and to further radicalize the Islamic faith.

Neither should be allowed to happen.

Ignorance and fear are great tools for radicals, it has not failed to achieve several goals, including the effective demonization of Muslims and their Islamic faith.

Elements within radical Islamic sects as well as western propagandists have both contributed to this, though for different ultimate objectives.

Anger, hatred and provocations are all intended results, and will only serve the massive war machines with support and/or ambivalence when the time comes.



[edit on 10-8-2010 by Fractured.Facade]

Originally posted by Hudson

Originally posted by Flighty
Why would any faith want to knowingly build a place of worship on ground where thousands of murders have taken place? It sounds way too warped blood thirsty and cultish to me.
Whether Muslims were responsible for 9/11 or not, this is totally macabre and only makes me think less of them.

Not only that, but model the building after the towers and open it up on September 11th. The amount of naivety being displayed he is stunning.


reply to post by n00bUK

 

in my eyes 9/11 was an inside job, that was constructed by people within the US.

So basically, you choose to live in a fantasy world, rather than in reality?

[edit on 10-8-2010 by Hudson]

im not even going to start going OT, but this world i live in my friend is based around facts. not speculation and bull$hit and big maybes with no proof what so ever. Ask your self who is living in a fantasy world.



reply to post by fooks


**off topic rant removed**


I only added to this thread because i believe who ever is funding this, doesnt give a flying *SNIP* how much salt is rubbed in the wounds, let that be the saudis, america or who ever.


But my thoughts alone, are that this is a push for the masses of NYC to be pissed off about the mosque been built, to push more racial segregation - you dont like what i think, dont read. Everybody is free to have there own opinion right?


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[edit on Tue Aug 10 2010 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Hudson
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Then they cry when you call them out on it, and call you every name in the book and swear you must be with 'them'.

By "they", you mean you right? Or do you think you have a special pass for calling people bigots, xenophobes and racists?

You've ignored every relevant question posed to you, just like this imam. You're just spinning someone else propaganda. You're not above it all like you seem to think.

You would first have to have some facts to ask some rellevant questions.

You have made a lot of poorly sourced unqualified statements.

Those aren't questions, and sadly you seem more focused on winning a debate than finding out that most of what you are purporting as fact regarding this case is false and long ago proven false.

Facts:

The Mosque itself is already there, it's an expansion.

The expansion is to add a community center that is inter-faith open to all denominations.

Fact it is not at ground zero but blocks away.

Fact it was never ever slated to open on September 11th.

So if you have that many things wrong, what the heck could you be asking that is relevant.

The facts are that the reasons being stated for building this mosque are bogus. Its not creating unity and its not motivating multi-religious dialog. Its promoting hatred and anger. There are 30 mosques in Manhattan alone, so this isn't about keeping Muslims out. the article in the OP is written by 2 Muslim who agree its a bad idea!

You seem to think your wacky conspiracy theories are facts. They aren't. There also inst a mosque there. Thats another lie you continue to repeat.

Take heart, Hudson. The US State Department has it handled.

US State Dept Sends Mosque Imam to Mideast

This is sure to set off a whole new round of rumors though. I'm sure we can imagine what kind.

However, just look at it this way...at least we're keeping a very close "eye" on the imam in case the alleged nefarious doings and reasons and funding quests with terrorists turn out to be true.

Originally posted by Hudson
The facts are that the reasons being stated for building this mosque are bogus. Its not creating unity and its not motivating multi-religious dialog. Its promoting hatred and anger. There are 30 mosques in Manhattan alone, so this isn't about keeping Muslims out. the article in the OP is written by 2 Muslim who agree its a bad idea!

You seem to think your wacky conspiracy theories are facts. They aren't. There also inst a mosque there. Thats another lie you continue to repeat.

No honestly you are promoting hatred and anger, they have built a place where you can come and interact and see if that hatred and anger is justified.

The United States of America is based on seperation of church and state.

There can be no religious tests.

You wanting to arbitrarily decide how many churches one denomination can have and where is a religious test.

If the area is zoned for such facilities than it is zoned for such facilities.

So you absolutely have NO constitutional right to limit churches or dictate which denominations can build them.

You insisting that the stated purpose is different to promote precisely what you claim they are is rendered mute by the local Jewish Community that has sat down and talked with the people building the Community Center that have endorsed it.

Now do I want to get my news from concerned parties that have actually sat down and talked with the players and investigated first hand, or do I want to get my news from someone who hasn't and doesn't even have their basic facts straight?

I choose facts and people who have investigated at the source.

You have none and haven't.

It is what it is, and you are in fact doing exactly what you claim the organizers and builders are.

They aren't though, they are providing you a place to interact and have dialouge with them, while you prefer to talk at things and talk at them, as opposed to learn about things and talk with them.

None of your emotional please will overcome that reality.

Thanks.

reply to post by Hudson


reply to post by Hudson

You seem to think your wacky conspiracy theories are facts. They aren't. There also inst a mosque there. Thats another lie you continue to repeat.

I have already sourced and proved through a Jewish Orginization's own article that a mosque already exists there.

Two Muslims represent 1.6 billion people? Wow I missed that election that appointed them as representatives of a diverse religion.

When did that election take place by the way?

There are at least two non-Muslim Americans on this thread who are for the Mosque so by your standards, it should be accepted by all, right? Right?

Not to mention the local Jewish Groups who have sat down and talked at length with the actual Muslims building the community center and have endorsed it, and rebuked the ADL for inflaming the situation and second guessing those on site who have truly investigated it.

Further this about a community you don't live in, not your fragile sensibilities.

It's about what is good for the local community, not people who don't live there and their fragile sensibilities.

It's about maintaining constitutional protections for ALL people not just the ones and things you like.

It's pretty simple, and when people are allowed to trample on the constitution just for the sake of their feelings and own selfish and poorly qualified desires, tyrany is not far off.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
If we were at war with Islam then this indeed would be a "provocation" and if we were at war with Islam we'd be facing an army of more than 1.25 Billion potential militants.

And that impressive figure is why the Western world is not officially at war with Islam, why key leaders of the industrialized world claim Islam is a religion of peace (while all you need is a quick dip into the Quran in order to find the suras that proclaim war and intolerance on non-muslims), and pledge dialogue and understanding between religious communities.

Any type of open hostility towards Islam would plunge the whole world into chaos, it would be bad for business, the stock market would flat-line, etc.

Had Islam been a fairly large sect of a controllable size, behaving like it behaves today from a global perspective, it would have gone down like David Koresh and his followers at Waco.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
The reality is that Islamic extremists are seeking to both provoke such a war and to further radicalize the Islamic faith.

Neither should be allowed to happen.

What do you propose as an alternative to a police state society that gives up its democratic principles in order to target a religious minority who's religious ideology does not respect democracy?

I'd like to know, because I don't like the smell of police states, anymore than I like the smell of totalitarian religions.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
Ignorance and fear are great tools for radicals, it has not failed to achieve several goals, including the effective demonization of Muslims and their Islamic faith.

Muslims are not evil. They're simply human beings born into a partially aggressive, intolerant, ethnocentric religion convinced of its own supremacy. As such, they must relate and learn to live with some of the less flattering aspects of their religion.

In the Christian Western world, we have more or less learned to relate to the Bible. We don't practice Biblical punishment anymore, we don't go to war in the name of God, or to advance the frontiers of Christianity. We try to be tolerant and understanding to other religions and belief systems.

The day I see the Muslim communities throw off the yoke of Islam, stop practicing it as a totalitarian religious ideology and simply practice its spiritual aspects, I will welcome them with open arms.

Wow. Wish I was here sooner.

Here's a very relevant thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Ahmose

 

Well, it's more of an issue than who's in the finals for American Idol, isn't it?

Life is not a zero-sum game; stop playing like it is.

[edit on 10-8-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Yeah, you know it, friend.
God forbid anything get in the way of peoples programming.

"And don't you dare make me think of some of the truly bad things in the world that need to be fixed, I keep those thoughts out of my head because they are unpleasant and dont affect me directly, got it" ?

"ohh, my show is on, gotta go! "



lol

[edit on 10-8-2010 by Ahmose]

I agree that this is a provocation. It is like being in the Army when you are given crumby details just to keep you angry enough to fight. It's just another 'Zionist Mind Trick'.
The Mayor of NYC is a rich man and my guess is that he may be in a Zionist/Globalist Club. That would make him very dangerous if that were the case.
I might suggest Webster Tarley's book 9/11. It raises a lot of questions.
free pdf link...

www.indymedia.org.uk...

1. Many intelligence agencies worked together to bring 9/11. Vast Conspiracy, knuckle handshakes and all that.
2. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent Muslims were slaughtered in Iraq and elsewhere as a result. Oil did well. Iran is surrounded.
3. US freedoms were lost and vast treasure was handed over to our military/security services where an entire security state was funded.
4. The banking industry loaned 'free money' to keep everyone's attention diverted. While busy at the trough, they gave us Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. They don't provide freedoms, nowadays they're in the busy of reducing them, stealing and lying.
5. The CIA has been destabilizing the region of Pakistan and Iran through provoking warring people groups.
6. Afghanistan has been a diversion where Pakistan is really the target. They have nukes which must be remedied because they are not in the Anglo-American club and will not knuckle under. They have dignity and the PTB just won't have that.
7. Watch Obama now signing treaties with the UN. ALL countries will eventually lose their sovereignty.
8. Perfect timing for the central bankers as our monetary system is kaput.

I guess the PTB will kick off this next world war with terrific US false flag of such staggering magnitude that people will be driven to strike out. My guess is that the severity will be so great that any dissenters voices regarding the source of the attack will not be heard. The anger and fear will be so heightened that incredible violence will ensue and suffering will be beyond words. It could very well be 'that sources say' the culprit was Pakistan and they'll probably offer evidence of the 9/11 i.e. payoff from the (ISI) inter-service intelligence agency. These agencies work together, if one agency wants something done, they usually get one of their friends in another agency to do it and it might get passed off three or four times. The result is the same. The masses of humans will be driven from place to place around the world seeking food and refuge and warmth. Eventually acquiescing to their new global master. MU HA HA HA



IMHO
Remember, this is SATAN'S world and the really, really rich and powerful serve him. Let me point you towards some wisdom.
Here is a great Old Time/End Time Preacher/Prophet named Stewart Best. He has entire ebooks that are free, $2, $3. Go to the bottom of his page. It'll be the best 'little bit of money' that you ever spent!!! You'll learn things that you will probably never hear in the modern church. True Biblical Teaching based on the WORD, revealed by the Spirit of God,, not on deception and lies
www.thelightgate.com



I believe we're in the 'End of Days'.
My advice is to 'make a decision for Christ' get yourself saved and get out of the system if you're in it. Move away from any large population centers.

jus' sayin'

Yep. The war is really for your mind.

reply to post by gotredeemed

Great points. Kinda beyond the scope of the topic, but not really.

Made me ask a simple question or two. How does one fight this? What does one do when provoked?

What's the sane, logical, common sense, informed thing to do? To not fall for it? (I know what I'd do, so don't go there...lol...it's just a general thought-provoking question to be examined.)

A guess would be that there will be many answers here...ranging from going to war for it to excusing it.

But what are people really going to war for or [ii]against becomes the real question then.

And are people viewed as excusing it really doing that?

How do we handle this?

reply to post by ~Lucidity


The reality is yes, this is a provocation in that it is a provocative idea. A place where concerned people can reach out and enjoy fellowship through a multi-religious, multi-cultural community center and an open invitation for people of all persuasions and denominations to join in that fellowship.

So in reality what it is, is an invitation to those who want to deny ignorance and put their prejudices aside and find common ground through having real communication with one another, in a safe, sane, consensual environment where people can do just that.

As the local Jewish Group that investigated and opened a dialogue with the people constructing and organizing the center proclaimed, that they and the Christians and Muslims alike worship the same God. That there is common ground through that and exploring fellowship in mutually advantageous ways that are beneficial to all concerned is a good way to overcome stereotypes and false assumptions that can only come through a lack of communication, education and interaction.

There is a reason the powers that be want people to be frightened of such proactive and positive communication, as it eliminates the ability for them to manipulate people in mass along emotional lines born out of ignorance.

Yes it’s a very provocative idea these people are pursuing, a wise and intelligent one.

No doubt about that.


[edit on 10/8/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by Hudson


i pretty agree with the op and my thoughts on this mosque are well known on here by some.

there lots lots of stuff you can watch on youtube suchs as this:

www.youtube.com...



good luck with your thread your gonna need it and alot of patience.:p

reply to post by neo96


Yeah because who needs to research real facts when you can watch inflamatory videos posted by people with political agendas they are pursuing.



Almost every thing stated in the Original Post is a easily provable falsehood.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Actually, I just finished watching that video. It was pretty balanced. The way Pamela Geller deflects things makes for some great comedy. The woman claims she's not an Islamophobe, but her website says otherwise.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


this the patience part i was talking about.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Actually, I just finished watching that video. It was pretty balanced. The way Pamela Geller deflects things makes for some great comedy. The woman claims she's not an Islamophobe, but her website says otherwise.

This is pretty much on par with a certain type of poster. Spam a link to a video, to promote a website, and add nothing of substance to the conversation in the process.

Watch the video, go to yet another website all to try to determine what the poster who originally posted it might have been trying to say.

That's a real high quality way to debate an issue.

Not.

I do appreciate you having some real facts to bring to the thread and some real sources though.

Thankfully some people get what ATS is about.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Actually, I just finished watching that video. It was pretty balanced. The way Pamela Geller deflects things makes for some great comedy. The woman claims she's not an Islamophobe, but her website says otherwise.

This is pretty much on par with a certain type of poster. Spam a link to a video, to promote a website, and add nothing of substance to the conversation in the process.

Watch the video, go to yet another website all to try to determine what the poster who originally posted it might have been trying to say.

That's a real high quality way to debate an issue.

Not.

I do appreciate you having some real facts to bring to the thread and some real sources though.

Thankfully some people get what ATS is about.

There's still many of us who believe that the rights of Americans in this country don't just apply to Christians.