US WARS: Get your facts straight

Originally posted by RedBird
The primary purpose of the war in Afghanistan was to secure a friendly regime in Kabul that would allow us to build a pipeline for the strategic control and exploitation of oil fields in and around the Caspian Sea.

And no where in your post did you mention the fact that in 2001, the opium fields were almost completely eradicated by the hard-line anti-drug Taliban.

And that right after NATO came in and took over, the opium fields skyrocketed into record breaking volume.

You do realize that those opium fields are one of the central aspects of all of this right?

Seems that a ton of in depth research is in order.

Go to Google and type in word combinations like "Afghanistan" "Opium" "Heroin" etc.

Also throughout ATS there is extremely in depth research on the topic that you can find. In fact there are even official UN documents that are as close as you can get to absolute proof of my claims.

You can find those documents around the web or on ATS, I have posted them several times.

But I am in a hurry, so use Google if you want evidence.

I won't help people who refuse to help themselves.

Good luck.

reply to post by byteshertz

Here is the problem... If you were ordered by your government to kill us (drafted), you would have no choice but to carry out such of an attack. While keeping that in mind, the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, our government has made mistakes, but so hasn't every other country made serious mistakes. We are not alone. What you are missing is that our successes and good nature fights through those mistakes, and we have the ability to learn from such chaos. We come out better for it when tested.

When it comes to foreigners belittling my fellow citizens, I find such people to be very offensive and ignorant of the facts. Majority of the ATS foreigners have no problem bashing the United States, but they are unwilling to face their own country's political and social issues. I find that to be very hypercritical.

I will quote one of the greatest lines I have ever heard:

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about it at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand at a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. ~ Col. Jessep (A Few Good Men)

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Section31]

Originally posted by Section31
reply to post by byteshertz

 

Here is the problem... If you were ordered by your government to kill us (drafted), you would have no choice but to carry out such of an attack. While keeping that in mind, the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, our government has made mistakes, but so hasn't every other country made serious mistakes. We are not alone. What you are missing is that our successes and good nature fights through those mistakes, and we have the ability to learn from such chaos. We come out better for it when tested.

When it comes to foreigners belittling my fellow citizens, I find such people to be very offensive and ignorant of the facts. Majority of the ATS foreigners have no problem bashing the United States, but they are unwilling to face their own country's political and social issues. I find that to be very hypercritical.

I will quote one of the greatest lines I have ever heard:

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about it at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand at a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. ~ Col. Jessep (A Few Good Men)

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Section31]

you the man section you the man

reply to post by RedBird


im impressed that you understand the larger goepolitical implication of the pipe line

the second point of war is act like a clearing house for movements of large sums of money

imagine a camin islands account that is effect a country where everybody is corrupt and money can vanish

now into the fry lets add a dash of drug cultivation and arms sales and the real reason a pre-emtive invasion is money laundering

the oil pipeline is like a vein that supplys blood/oil to the addict and control of the supply is crutial for control of energy prices that are traded as a comodity on the markets

oil prices rise and profits hop dont look now the depresions back

XPLodER

reply to post by Common Good


im not american so ill consider you point about no reeaallly understanding

i ask you what other country in the world has in their founding documents that the power in law is derived from the concent of the goverend

were is it a duty of the republic that all people are active in the govenmental process to make it preform correctly

you have a redress of greivences process written into your countrys birth

in my country we have no such things

the people individually and collectivly are the source of whats acceptable and whats not

a jury of peers presided over by a person of high standing in the community

i have no such public meetings or gatherings in which real public opinion can forge a new direction for the country from the concensus of the people not their advocates

represent your power directly rather than through a politician
this quickly weeds out corruption

non violet lawful action by educated populace is whats needed

reply to post by byteshertz


Here's my take:

1) 9/11 perpetrated my American operatives which makes Afghanistan illegitimate.

2) "Weapons of mass destruction" was nothing more than a front to go into Iraq.

The purpose of Iraq is to stay in relative proximity to Iran/Israel and the purpose of Afghanistan is to stay in relative proximity to Russia.

Let's be honest; most Afghani's are straight out of the stone age. I'm not being mean or bigoted, they are just so far in the stone ages it's laughable. To think that we can go int there and somehow make them behave like a civilized, advanced society is ludicrous. They circumsize their women, crap in caves and probably bath twice a month, if that. To think we can possible reason with them and expect them to behave like western civilization is ridiculous.

The same pretty much applies to Iraq, but for different reasons. Those people had gotten so used to Saddam providing for them, telling them who, what, where, how and why, they are lost without that dictatorship. Many of them will tell you so. Many of them (much like the left in this country) had gotten so used to the government wiping their butts for them, providing for their every whim, oppressing and actually assassinating anybody who dare dissent from the leftist government.

I'm just a lowly U.S. working class slug and I can figure this out. We've been pumping money into our inner cities for decades. We've build government housing and provided everything one needs to survive in the Bronx, Chicago, Detroit, L.A. and the list goes on. And they are still low-life wards of our government. Public housing is a perfect example of the level of scum we are dealing with. Give a lazy @ss a free apartment and he'll turn it into a crackhouse and blame everybody else for it. Given this, what in the he11 makes us think we can somehow turn Afghanistan and Iraq into legitimate democracies? We can't! And our government knows it. It is just a front to prop up our economy, secure oil fields and other natural resources and keep troops strategically placed.

The dirtbags in Washington think everybody is an idiot and we'll believe anything they say. We have the firepower to turn Afghanistan into a pile of dust, yet we still have taliban setting roadside bombs and killing innocents. There's something wrong with that picture.

Originally posted by neo96

to me you just cant justify your antiamericanism to me.

haha Congratulations, you're the first person to use 'antiamericanism' in this thread.

I thought that retarded sentence was faded out when Americans eventually realised that they were actually in the wrong for some things, guess you must have missed that memo eh?



thanks for the laugh.

reply to post by byteshertz


I share your frustration but there is one area where you are mistaken. The American people can do nothing with their government and the powers that be. Election time and voting is a joke. The Constitution is almost history and the time for the American public to react to an extent that would make a difference is long gone. We are on a downhill slide on a slippery slope and the only thing that will stop us now it hitting the bottom.
Seeashrink

reply to post by byteshertz


You know what? That's simply amazing. Not only it's one of the things I was thinking about lately (and haven't seen them in the written form before), it's also probably the best post I've read on this page. You rock my world today. Thank you.

reply to post by Section31


when somebody else can write a cheaque off the back of the average joe and then loans it to banks at interest who loan it to you at interest who is getting screwed by this process??

war demonstrates that the power is there to protect and enslave the paridim that their eleits want to project at that time

as much as its there to keep you free its taking away your freedom

ever wounder what america actions look like from a small island in the south pacific ?

you are and will always be the only superpower who has had a real chance of freeing the world

do you think when china overtakes america in economic power they will treate you me and everyone like they do their own people

does anyone know why China is looking good in the media latly?

afghanistan has deposits or rare earth elements required for war hardware strategic stuff

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by neo96

to me you just cant justify your antiamericanism to me.

haha Congratulations, you're the first person to use 'antiamericanism' in this thread.

I thought that retarded sentence was faded out when Americans eventually realised that they were actually in the wrong for some things, guess you must have missed that memo eh?

thanks for the laugh.

like england has never been in the wrong ??????????

lets see how did that go???? the sun never set on the british empire.....

or is someone still upset that americans got out from underneath the foot on thier necks.......






[edit on 8-8-2010 by neo96]

Democracy in general is a very war weary form of government unless you call upon the fundamental ideals of every human which is the will and need to protect oneself. In order for a democratic government to go to war you must find a way or reason to justify it in the minds of the people. The American government had/have a strategic interest in both Iraq and Afghanistan. This is not anything new, you see, all powerful countries/nations/empires look for ways to promote their own strategic interests for gains that are beyond the knowledge of the public which "supports" them. Understanding your frustration, I too do not support the current wars as I do not believe in the deception or guise in which they are being fought. Please further understand that American Citizens are the probably the most manipulated citizens in terms of goverment propaganda through the use of media manipulation. Furthermore, the American people have purposely been socially divided to help keep the power of the people from both realizing the intentions of a defunct government but to also keep them oppressed. It is nearly impossible to get unbiased and accurate news in U.S. and no matter what side of an issue you pick you are automatically characterized by your one choice or decision to be part of a larger group then you are attacked by your fellow citizens and the government never has to lift a finger. Ex.) One ideal/thought and the following transpires: Say that I am pro gun rights; well, based off that one ideal the media and government have developed a society that rather than look for the other 99.9% of the way we are still alike, they instead lump you into every way you are different. So, you are pro gun rights then you must be a conservative, white neocon racist, anti abortion, and support everything contrary to the other major party. This automatically seperates your from 50% of your fellow Americans and discredits (in the mind of the opposing party) any other good idea you may have because now, you are the enemy to their particular set of ideals. Until my fellow Americans, myself included, are able to recognize and attack the source of the manipulation and start to celebrate how we are alike more-so than the way we are different then we will continue to not only lose the fight but also continue to be willing victims of the oppression the government levies upon the majority of the population. I may have went off on a tangent but the truth remains, we are an intentionally divided nation within well confined groups of stereotypes, prejudices, political affiliations, and socioeconomic classes. Once we as Americans awake from the malaise of our overindulged desire for entertainment then we may start making strides in addressing a corrupt government which follows the will of the powerful instead of the powerful will of the people.

If any of my fellow United States citizens are agreeing with this crap, you have a very cynical perspective of your country. You should acknowledge our country's failures, pick your selves off the floor, and learn from the hell we went through. You should also stick up for your fellow citizens, and stop moping around because things went wrong.

Majority of these ATS foreigners who are bashing your country are hypocrites. None of them have the guts to pick up a weapon and fight for what they believe to be just. Instead of allowing our fellow US citizens to learn from such mistakes, ATS foreigners are bashing our country's government into the next millennium. Sure, we have issues to deal with, but what gives these hypocrites the right to kick you while we are down.

Stand up for yourselves for god sakes. Be proud of your country.

God bless the United States.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Section31]

Originally posted by Section31
If any of my fellow United States citizens are agreeing with this crap, you have a very cynical perspective of your country. You should acknowledge our country's failures, pick your selves off the floor, and learn from the hell we went through. You should also stick up for your fellow citizens, and stop moping around because things went wrong.

Majority of these ATS foreigners who are bashing your country are hypocrites. None of them have the guts to pick up a weapon and fight for what they believe to be just. Instead of allowing our fellow US citizens to learn from such mistakes, ATS foreigners are bashing our country's government into the next millennium. Sure, we have issues to deal with, but what gives these hypocrites the right to kick you while we are down.

Stand up for yourselves for god sakes. Be proud of you country.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Section31]

nah section to me this thread is someone not american telling americans what to do

and if any foreigner knows any truth bout americans there are 2 simple truths:

we do not like to be told what to do
we do not ever get on our knees for anyone elses beliefs




[edit on 8-8-2010 by neo96]

reply to post by works4dhs


Simplist view but I agree with It. I would love to see It extended up to the spanish war.

Originally posted by neo96
nah section to me this thread is someone not american telling americans what to do

and if any foreigner knows any truth bout americans there are 2 simple truths:

we do not like to be told what to do
we do not ever get on out knees for anyone elses beliefs

Amen Neo. Amen.

I hope they realize that someday they will need our help. It is kind of like how the French betrayed the allied forces in World War II. Once Germany gazed upon their country, they suddenly invited us back to help them.

Irony.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Section31]

Flag and star... sometimes the most simple things elude us, when the things we are focusing on are so convoluted and distorted that we forgot how they happened in the first place.

Thanks for the sanity in an insane world.

reply to post by rimshot

An army is like a football team. If you don't practice, you don't play so good.
War is good practice for when the real thing comes along.

Practice! That's getting close to the top of the ridiculous statements list!

"Dear Mr. & Mrs list name here: Your son 'so & so' died in practice today. His heroic efforts were recognized, but since it's not the real thing, we only have some fake medals for you. Enjoy.
The practice coach"

Shameful.

Originally posted by byteshertz
FACT:
The Afghanistan war:
•Initial reason for invasion: Response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US.
•Aim: was to find Osama bin Laden and put him on trial along with other Al-Qaeda members. Another aim was to end Al-Qaeda as an entity and remove the Taliban regime in Afghanistan which harboured the terrorist organisation and supported them.
•Result: After 10 years Osama has not been found and the number of "terrorists" groups have increased since occupation. The war continues.

- Your COUNTRY attacked another COUNTRY because a group of PEOPLE in that country were the ones your government claimed attacked you. How will you know when you have won the war? How many lives are you willing to take to stop this group of people?

The Iraq war:
•Initial reason for invasion: The United States and the United Kingdom claimed that Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) posed a threat to their security and that of their coalition/regional allies. After investigation following the invasion, the U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991 and had no active programs at the time of the invasion.
•Aim: stop Saddam Hussein from obtaining weapons of mass destruction
•Result: Although some degraded remnants of misplaced or abandoned chemical weapons from before 1991 were found, they were not the weapons which had been the main argument to justify the invasion. A U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991. Saddam Hussein is executed by the new governement. The war continues.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by byteshertz]

We have killed lots of Terrorist and Taliban. If it were not for Pakistan the war would be over. I know it wont be over till we leave or beat the snot out of Pakistan. Taking on Pakistan is only a last resort and only if they really do something bad like have a terrorist nuke one of our cities, we wont now because of the lives that will be lost in the nuclear attack from us.

Allot of people in A-Stan are happy they no longer live with the Taliban and AQ. I say we warn Pakistan and start taking out strategic sites if they keep it up.

Iraq is almost over but to keep Iran from taking over the country as they have been trying to do somewhat successfully, we must take them out. Watch the documentary on the Shia death squads in Iraq if you think its a joke. We have warned Iran a hundred times to cut the crap and they have killed allot of our people and thousand of innocent Iraqis. Iran deserves to be bombed into oblivion,, the government that is.

I guess you think we plotted the terror attacks that caused us to finally attack Libya back in the day to?

What nation are you from so I can criticize you when you support your own country responding to a terror attack?

Despite what ever you think happened on 9/11, many terrorist attacks happened before against us and our allies that were perpetrated by Saddam, AQ, Lebanon and Iran. If Saddam really did not have WMDs he could have called the White House and told them it was all a ruse to fool Iran, or tell it to the U.N. publicly and call upon them for help if Iran tries anything. He didn't and we all here heard the story of the weapons being shipped to Syria. The Israeli attack on Syria makes me think that is what they found and hit.

Originally posted by byteshertz


And lastly before this word comes up a million times...
• Terrorist: a radical who employs terror (panic) as a political weapon

[edit on 8-8-2010 by byteshertz]

I think this is the best thing you mentioned.


POLITICAL WEAPON!