US WARS: Get your facts straight

I know this has all been said before and I am sorry for dragging you all through it again but something is not sticking in the minds of some people. I am all for having your own opinions but they should at least have a basis of fact. I have nothing against American people and love you all like brothers and sisters but I direct this squarly at the American public in general because you are the one's that can make a difference, you are the one's not taking action and you are the one's that don't know the facts - so I am going to put 3 key areas of fact below that you need to get through your head before you continue to embarrass yourself and frustrate the rest of the world (it's like talking to people from the movie idiocracy)
To those American's that do know the fact's I am sure you are as frustrated by this as I am and I appologise for the blanket comments.

FACT:
The Afghanistan war:
•Initial reason for invasion: Response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US.
•Aim: was to find Osama bin Laden and put him on trial along with other Al-Qaeda members. Another aim was to end Al-Qaeda as an entity and remove the Taliban regime in Afghanistan which harboured the terrorist organisation and supported them.
•Result: After 10 years Osama has not been found and the number of "terrorists" groups have increased since occupation. The war continues.

- Your COUNTRY attacked another COUNTRY because a group of PEOPLE in that country were the ones your government claimed attacked you. How will you know when you have won the war? How many lives are you willing to take to stop this group of people?

The Iraq war:
•Initial reason for invasion: The United States and the United Kingdom claimed that Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) posed a threat to their security and that of their coalition/regional allies. After investigation following the invasion, the U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991 and had no active programs at the time of the invasion.
•Aim: stop Saddam Hussein from obtaining weapons of mass destruction
•Result: Although some degraded remnants of misplaced or abandoned chemical weapons from before 1991 were found, they were not the weapons which had been the main argument to justify the invasion. A U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991. Saddam Hussein is executed by the new governement. The war continues.

- Why are you still in this country? Did you stop to think maybe they do not want the peace and democracy your country is trying to force upon them?

DO YOU SEE ANY WAY YOUR COUNTRIES GOALS CAN BE ACHIEVED THROUGH WAR WITH EITHER OF THESE COUNTRIES?

And lastly before this word comes up a million times...
• Terrorist: a radical who employs terror (panic) as a political weapon
- Thats right! nothing to do with nationality, groups or weapons. It is a label that can be used by someone to label someone else without any evidence so IT MEANS NOTHING!

IT IS ONE LEVEL OF STUPID TO JUSTIFY STARTING THESE WARS BUT IT IS ANOTHER LEVEL OF STUPID TO STILL JUSTIFY THEM APPROACHING 10 YEARS ON WHEN THE INITIAL REASON FOR WAR IS NO LONGER VALID

Edit to fix format - apologise for spelling to tired to edit.





[edit on 8-8-2010 by byteshertz]

An army is like a football team. If you don't practice, you don't play so good.

War is good practice for when the real thing comes along.

I don't support any of the wars that America is involved in, and I don't see how my fellow Americans can possibly do so.

Thank you for making an effort to clarify what is going on. s&f

IMO, the aim in both facts 1 and 2 was achieved.

In fact 1, you can't put dead people on trial.

Al-qaeda has been eliminated. What you have now is a bunch of wannabes as well as government officials who continue to use the group as a reason for continuing the war.

Taliban was removed.

In fact 2, Saddam cannot obtain weapons of mass destruction since he is dead.

The problem is the results. Once the US military achieved their goals, the military should have been withdrawn. Covert operations and diplomacy should have taken over.

IMO, a military isn't meant to be in a long dragged out war.

I like your thread however I think it is overly simplistic, you clearly understand what your talking about and i understand that when you try to expand on these points things become very complicated. For example your definition of Terrorism looks like something out of a dictionary; the truth is that there is not universally accepted definition of terrorism, most would probably agree with what you have said but there is allot more to it. Likewise whilst you are correct about the initial reason for going to war with Iraq and Afghanistan you have only give a very brief description of these reasons and have not noted how the reasons for these “wars” have evolved for example combating terrorism in Iraq or reducing drug exports in Afghanistan. You should also be careful about using the word “war”, it’s more of a occupation now. Saying that however your thread does make for a good summery for somebody wanting a quick look at the initial reasons for the wars.

Originally posted by jam321

you can't put dead people on trial.

Exactly Corretemudno!! The more dead enemy, the fewer trials. It's such a simple formula.

you are right

these wars are a joke

terrorists doesnt exist


yes, some psychopaths have some people under their wings, so you could say they may be a threat

but, how many of these insurgents are really terrorists and how many of these are parents fighting for revenge or for the lives of their families?

There is a slight problem to your past. Iraq and Afganistan are like Vietnam and Korea, they are policing actions, not official wars. For it to be a war, and I will never understand why the congress did not do this, but for this to be a war, there has to be a declaration of war by the US Congress. Congress never really authorized or declared war on either country.

1) the Saddam regime was known to posess and even use WsMD (on it's own citizens). it is theoretically possible that at the time of the 2nd Gulf War he had no major quantities, but there is no doubt he posessed them in the past, and had the resources to renew their production. Every major intel operation in the world (CIA, Mi6, whatever they call the KGB now, Mossad) was convinced of their existence. At least one General in the Iraqi army was so sure he posessed them he was planning to deploy them!
and of course there are stories that the WsMD did exist and were hidden or secretly transported (to Syria).
there is a theory that Saddam disposed of all his WsMD and wanted the UN and the world to think he still posessed them. (remember, the UN & Hans Blix' job was to verify the disposal, and there was not sufficient evidence that they were disposed of).

2) the Taliban regime in Afghanistan openly allowed al-Qaeda to operate. without the Talis al-Qaeda, while still operating, is severely hampered. and many of the terrorists blowing up stuff in Afghanistan were planning on blowing stuff up in the US by now.

hindsight is 20/20.

consider; we have had no fatal terror attacks in the US since 09/12/01. thanx to Pres Bush and all the uniformed folks keeping us safe.

Originally posted by Faiol
you are right

these wars are a joke

terrorists doesnt exist

b]

And don't even think about terrorists while you are in an elevator going up to the eightieth floor.

Originally posted by byteshertz
I know this has all been said before and I am sorry for dragging you all through it again but something is not sticking in the minds of some people. I am all for having your own opinions but they should at least have a basis of fact. I have nothing against American people and love you all like brothers and sisters but I direct this squarly at the American public in general because you are the one's that can make a difference, you are the one's not taking action and you are the one's that don't know the facts - so I am going to put 3 key areas of fact below that you need to get through your head before you continue to embarrass yourself and frustrate the rest of the world (it's like talking to people from the movie idiocracy)
To those American's that do know the fact's I am sure you are as frustrated by this as I am and I appologise for the blanket comments.

FACT:
The Afghanistan war:
•Initial reason for invasion: Response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US.
•Aim: was to find Osama bin Laden and put him on trial along with other Al-Qaeda members. Another aim was to end Al-Qaeda as an entity and remove the Taliban regime in Afghanistan which harboured the terrorist organisation and supported them.
•Result: After 10 years Osama has not been found and the number of "terrorists" groups have increased since occupation. The war continues.

- Your COUNTRY attacked another COUNTRY because a group of PEOPLE in that country were the ones your government claimed attacked you. How will you know when you have won the war? How many lives are you willing to take to stop this group of people?

The Iraq war:
•Initial reason for invasion: The United States and the United Kingdom claimed that Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) posed a threat to their security and that of their coalition/regional allies. After investigation following the invasion, the U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991 and had no active programs at the time of the invasion.
•Aim: stop Saddam Hussein from obtaining weapons of mass destruction
•Result: Although some degraded remnants of misplaced or abandoned chemical weapons from before 1991 were found, they were not the weapons which had been the main argument to justify the invasion. A U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq had ended its nuclear, chemical, and biological programs in 1991. Saddam Hussein is executed by the new governement. The war continues.

- Why are you still in this country? Did you stop to think maybe they do not want the peace and democracy your country is trying to force upon them?

DO YOU SEE ANY WAY YOUR COUNTRIES GOALS CAN BE ACHIEVED THROUGH WAR WITH EITHER OF THESE COUNTRIES?

And lastly before this word comes up a million times...
• Terrorist: a radical who employs terror (panic) as a political weapon
- Thats right! nothing to do with nationality, groups or weapons. It is a label that can be used by someone to label someone else without any evidence so IT MEANS NOTHING!

IT IS ONE LEVEL OF STUPID TO JUSTIFY STARTING THESE WARS BUT IT IS ANOTHER LEVEL OF STUPID TO STILL JUSTIFY THEM APPROACHING 10 YEARS ON WHEN THE INITIAL REASON FOR WAR IS NO LONGER VALID

Edit to fix format - apologise for spelling to tired to edit.





[edit on 8-8-2010 by byteshertz]

It seems you are right WE, Americans, started all these war for these reasons and as of this very day it appears that none of the initial goals have been achieved.

I will take exception and say Al Qaeda is on trial, as is the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein never got WMDs...Mission Accomplished in at least these two areas.

I know it seems odd that the wealthiest nation would engage in an armed robbery and home invasion of two of the poorest nations...its absurd....like someone in Beverly Hills riding south of the border and breaking into a home in Tijuana. But...like you said, we did it. What's even more absurd is that even though these countries, even at their best, could never produce the wealth that We, the Americans, along with the British have spent to invade and occupy their countries...we remain and continue to deplete our wealth to the point of economic collapse.

No rational person armed with facts could ever understand what the hell this is all about. It makes no sense...Are we drunk or something?

For this reason, then, it becomes apparent that the REAL reasons for these actions were far more complex than could be explained to the average slob...and even to this very day, the real reasons this has occured and will continue to occur until the job is done are not anything the average citizen of the world could possibly understand.

I think some of you may be unauthorized to discuss the real reasons for these events because they could compromise internal security.

Hope this helps. Only God himself will move us.

Interesting point about the military in America....if you don't believe in war, don't join.

What could be simpler?

to the op im sitting here wondering if you would have the same views of the past world states:


spanish,iberian,empire,british,french,german,egypitan,islamic,mongolian

persian empires............... everyone is so quick to jump on america


but if you look at how truly brutal past countries have been,past wars have been......


to me you just cant justify your antiamericanism to me.



...."let he who is without sin cast the first stone........"


feel free to disagree...but i see this thread for what it is.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by neo96]

Originally posted by Faiol
but, how many of these insurgents are really terrorists and how many of these are parents fighting for revenge or for the lives of their families?

By blowing up a market crowded with women and children? How is that "revenge against the hated invader"?

The primary purpose of the war in Afghanistan was to secure a friendly regime in Kabul that would allow us to build a pipeline for the strategic control and exploitation of oil fields in and around the Caspian Sea.

Later objectives of the war included the political re-stabilization (not "de-stabilization" as so many people think - we have no interest in direct occupation) of Pakistan, resulting in a new, friendly regime, as the old friendly regime which had replaced the undesirable regime in 1999, was beginning to de-stabilize, and had lost popular support.

Our primary objective was only half accomplished as the original pipeline plan fell through, and following an attempt by the Chinese to co-opt the plan, we were forced to accept an increase in Chinese participation in the pipeline plan.

Considering that a primary motivation of the original pipeline plan had been U.S. strategic control of the line by sending it through Afgh-Paki instead of simply going through China, the fact that the we were forced in the end to accept some Chinese financing and control over the operation suggests that our primary objective was only partly achieved.

All in all, I'd say a mild success.


Oh, wait. You mean you thought it was about Terrorism?

Woops...

Bombs don't kill people. Shrapnel kills people.

reply to post by byteshertz


Ok, I got it.(not that I didnt get it before).

Now what? Whats the point of this thread? To inform us of something we already know?

What are you exactly asking of us little ole American citizens?
You want us to have a hostile take-over and start killing our own people
so you can sit on the other side of the world and laugh at us while pointing the finger and saying "See, they really are that stupid"?

If America takes back its own country, it wont be the way it was back then in the revolution days. We wont have pitchforks, rocks, and slingshots like most of the countries trying to fight their governments THESE days.
Now-A-Days, the government KNOWs that the people are more armed then the bomb that dropped on Hiroshima. The govt would not stand a chance against the people, because people here in America ARE more powerful then they could ever be. People think that our military will turn on its citizens. AGAIN, that will NOT happen. It CANT happen, the military has NO AUTHORITY to engage on their own citizens. Even the president,NOR CONGRESS, cant say "Military, kill the civilians". The civilians ARE THE MILITARY. Im a civilian, but at the same time, I am ex-military, and let me tell you, that training does NOT go away. There are more veterans in this country then there are active duty military personel.
How/who do you think the military gets its ideas and weapons systems from? Civilians. Civilians are the cornerstone of the military, without them, there would be no Military. When someone signs their life away on that dotted line, they are signing to protect The Constitution, and the lives and liberty of their own people, not to be against them.
Now I will say this, The military CAN, and WILL do what is ordered of them, as long as there is good or (seemingly good enough) evidence for the people to buy it(I.E.WMDs). All that our politicians have to do is come up with a good enough reason for the people to buy into the fact that we need to go to these certain countries to protect OUR best interests, and as long as people are NOT paying attention, most of the time they get away with it. ALL NATIONS do this, its just a matter of IF and WHEN. Most countries are not even on the same playing field as America, they are the NCAA, we are the NBA. Although, being in the NBA means you have to sacrafice more in order to stay on top(this is when the politicians scare tactics come into play to keep us nice and oiled ready to do what is needed for their own PERSONAL gains). So more war breaks out.
The people have put their lives on the line so someone else can get paid.
Simple as that.
But like I said, most people do not pay attention to these things, because of the lifestyle they have been accustomed to, most people are so jaded to war and the likes, that it simply seems like normal day to day operations, that we are doing what we must in order to keep the standard of living that we are so accustomed to.
America has been at war for a long time, its probably the one thing that we know best.
Yes, Americans can stop it from happening, but as long as there are people in power that can convinve the rest of us that we are doing the right thing, then of course we are going to go with it(true or not).
So yes, the people have the ability to put a stop to it, but first, we have to weed out those who continue to make a buck off of lives. THAT, is harder to do, considering the fact that most people will do anything in order to live a better lifestyle(even those scary cave dwellers).
You also have to remember- people in America are no more dumb then the rest of the worlds population, if anything, we are more perceptive of what is going on then most. Other nations TRY to act like they know better, but they dont, because they have no yet been through what we have as a nation, no living nation to this day has. Most nations do not understand how corrupt the ENTIRE WORLDS political system is.
THEY ALWAYS take sides, and it is most often than not the side of the underdog(eventhough the underdog usually ALWAYS loses). The world CHEERS war. Regardless of what side they are on. If there were NO SIDES, and everyone was fighting EACH OTHER, the war would end VERY quickly.
So to say that AMERICAN CITIZENS are the only ones capable of ending these wars and the ugly nature of the globe, is very inaccurate. This is a GLOBAL problem, not an American problem.

You want to fix things, you have to get ALL CITIZENS, FROM ALL COUNTRIES on the same page. Regardless of what political system they have in place. If they are subserviant, then there is no future for them AT ALL.
The more power you give government, the more you are taking away from yourself.

edit-cg


[edit on 8-8-2010 by Common Good]

You are totally wrong about the reasoning for war.

Reasons for War : Money and Power

In order to keep the $$$ flowing and the power growing, the wars must go on.

When it ends in those nations, the war will move to other nations.

How come you haven't figured this out yet?

The wars will not end until mankind can overcome it's lust for power and money.

'Nuff said.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
There is a slight problem to your past. Iraq and Afganistan are like Vietnam and Korea, they are policing actions, not official wars. For it to be a war, and I will never understand why the congress did not do this, but for this to be a war, there has to be a declaration of war by the US Congress. Congress never really authorized or declared war on either country.

An interesting point, however Congress has authorized the declaration of the War on Terror, and did authorize the War in Iraq (both times), and has authorized funding for both wars year after year.

There is another US President who went to war without Congressional authorization. His name was Abraham Lincoln. Would you consider the American Civil War a "police action" because it was not waged with the authorization of Congress?

Lincoln is widely regarded as one of the best Presidents, but his record was spotty at best if you REALLY investigate it. He suspended Habeus Corpus, just like Bush (but unlike Bush, he threatened to jail any Supreme Court justice who stood against this order), he was the first American President to impose Income Taxes, and he only pushed for emancipation when it became clear that not enough whites were volunteering for the Union Army (before this, he was an open supporter of slavery and a supporter of those who campaigned against emancipation), He declared war without Congressional approval, and threatened to jail anyone who stood against him. He also started to issue greenbacks, and used taxpayer money to shore up banks who lost money when they stood behind the new currency, creating the largest transfer of taxpayer money to bankers to that point in history. Sound familiar?

Why is Lincoln revered while Bush is remembered with disdain? Linxoln was willing to do ANYTHING to preserve the American Union, the Constitution be damned.

I'm by no means a Bush supporter, but Americans REALLY need to learn the history of their Presidency, not just what is taught in school books.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
You are totally wrong about the reasoning for war.

Reasons for War : Money and Power

In order to keep the $$$ flowing and the power growing, the wars must go on.

When it ends in those nations, the war will move to other nations.

How come you haven't figured this out yet?

The wars will not end until mankind can overcome it's lust for power and money.

'Nuff said.

You said it. America's biggest export is military technology and know how. Remember how Obama said last year that he wanted to halve the deficit and increase American production? What is the only industry currently exporting in large enough quantities to do this? US Firepower.