Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by neformore

 

I dont deny that hitlet had a boycott of jews, that could be inferred from reading mein kampf. He thought jews were responsible for all the worlds evil. I dont necessarily agree with that but that does not mean I must believe he killed six million jews especially when I know his only orders were to deport the jews. So that was the atrocity, jews getting kicked out of germany and having to go to israel and america.

Israel didn't exist then. "Deportation to the East" was a euphemism for being murdered.

reply to post by neformore


If jews were forbidden from joining the military, please explain why there were jews in hitlers army
www.kansaspress.ku.edu...

seems like a good thing, if hitler hated jews, a really evil thing to do would be to conscript and force jews into a draft. But the monster hitler did no such thing.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by neformore

 

If jews were forbidden from joining the military, please explain why there were jews in hitlers army
www.kansaspress.ku.edu...

seems like a good thing, if hitler hated jews, a really evil thing to do would be to conscript and force jews into a draft. But the monster hitler did no such thing.

You are, once again, making the mistake of thinking that Hitler was a rational human being. The definition of who was, or was not, Jewish was insane. Please see the Nuremburg Laws (en.wikipedia.org...). Many of the men in the book you cite did not know that they were, by the twisted standards of the Nazis, Jewish.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Right, a euphemism, because there WERE NO WRITTEN HOLOCAUST ORDERS. The whole thing done in code speak despite Hitlers unwaivering honesty when it came to everything else regarding the jewish question. I dont believe that the whole thing was done in code. Top secret, possible, but code, no way. Codes can only go so far, the more complicated,bthe easier the error. You are tellng me eleven million died on purpose from code? It would and is more believable to know they died from disease.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


You are once again making the mistake that hitler was evil. People are neither good nor bad, but we are all rational beings, some not as reasonably rational, but even the most mad has a method in their madness. You are assuming hitler did everything from a cold and evil heart. That is an a priori assumption.

Oh and dont bring up crazy racial law otherwise I will discuss who can and can not marry a cohen
www.virtualjerusalem.com...

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Right, a euphemism, because there WERE NO WRITTEN HOLOCAUST ORDERS. The whole thing done in code speak despite Hitlers unwaivering honesty when it came to everything else regarding the jewish question. I dont believe that the whole thing was done in code. Top secret, possible, but code, no way. Codes can only go so far, the more complicated,bthe easier the error. You are tellng me eleven million died on purpose from code? It would and is more believable to know they died from disease.

Yes, it was code. Himmler has been quoted in his Posen Speech (en.wikipedia.org...) that what the SS was doing was a page that would not be written in history. "Evacuation to the East" sounds innocuous. It wasn't.
As for the lack of Hitler's written orders, you are again failing to understand Hitler. He did not sit at a huge desk and spent his time writing orders. He lived a bohemian existence, staying up late and sleeping in late. After the war the Americans issued orders for the rest of the Nazi Cabinet, in the understandable belief that the Cabinet was where Hitler gave his orders. The truth was that the Nazi Cabinet seldom met en masse. Hitler preferred one on one meetings, known as "Under Four Eyes" meetings. Hitler and the other person. No secretary, no witnesses. Himmler would never have started the machinery for the Holocaust without orders from Hitler.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

You are once again making the mistake that hitler was evil. People are neither good nor bad, but we are all rational beings, some not as reasonably rational, but even the most mad has a method in their madness. You are assuming hitler did everything from a cold and evil heart. That is an a priori assumption.

Oh and dont bring up crazy racial law otherwise I will discuss who can and can not marry a cohen
www.virtualjerusalem.com...

edit on 6-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

The issue of whether or not Hitler was evil has been debated by better debaters than me. Hideously evil crimes were committed in his name. How's that?

Originally posted by filosophia
I agree with most of what you said, except that suicide is desertion.

I didn't state that explicitly, nor do I necessarily think that that is what I was implying. It was a traditional means of death for a failed general, in the old way of doing things an honourable death, capture in such cases being considered dishonourable, which is why, when informed of Hitler's mode of death, he showed his respect to his adversary and said that he would have done the same. I don't make any judgement of Hitler's suicide, it was what it was. Beyond that, I have no opinion.

Originally posted by filosophia
But you even say Hitler tried to make peace, yet he is still a monster. How can a peaceful monster exist?

He was by no means peaceful. He was rushed into war with Russia, but as Mein Kampf detailed, that war was always in his objectives. Germany made, approximately 18 peace overtures towards Britain, some of them directly, some of them through neutral intermediaries such as the US and Sweden. Many of those overtures included promises to return occupied territories, but they all contained the provisio that German should retain it's supremacy within Europe. Which is why all of them were rejected because many had read Mein Kampf and therefore knew of his long term objectives, and the last thing that Britain wanted was a single power in control of Eurasia. Especially not Germany.

Originally posted by filosophia
The common response is well anyone who did the holocaust is evil. Right, but what if he was framed for that?

Even if, and it is a very big if, he was framed for the holocaust, what of his actions in the East? Ignoring the Death Camps, and the organised and systematic murder of the Reich Jews, are we to pretend also, that he was framed for the mass shootings, those that we have detailed and comprehensive records of, wired direct to Berlin, that we have photographic evidence from those who admit committing those shootings? Of eye-witness statements of those in the Wehrmacht who refused to participate in the slaughter? Should we imagine that all that is some complex fabrication to besmirch Hitler's otherwise good name? Now please.

Let us look at the orders that we do have....the infamous Commissar Directive is a case in point...

This notorious directive, dated 6 June 1941, followed directly on the Barbarossa decree. It was called Instructions on the Treatment of Political Commissars and began :

In the struggle against Bolshevism, we must not assume that the enemy's conduct will be based on principles of humanity or of international law. In particular, hate-inspired, cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners can be expected on the part of all grades of political commissars, who are the real leaders of resistance...To show consideration to these elements during this struggle, or to act in accordance with international rules of war, is wrong and endangers both our own security and the rapid pacification of conquered territory...Political commissars have initiated barbaric, Asiatic methods of warfare. Consequently, they will be dealt with immediately and with maximum severity. As a matter of principle, they will be shot at once, whether captured during operations or otherwise showing resistance.

en.wikipedia.org...

No other single or order was more controversial than this one above...it was from Hitler directly...and flouted not only international law, but also the honour system that existed within the Wehrmacht. It was this order more than any other, that turned the Generals away from Hitler. It was all very well for the Eisatzgruppen to murder civilians, the Wehrmacht would turn a blind eye toward that, but to make the Wehrmacht complicit was completely against their ethos. Either way, what it shows is that Hitler had no sympathy for the peoples of the East, and by this order he set in motion an atmosphere of mass murder in the East. Hardly a peaceable man, but definately a man who was taking the form of a monster in the minds of those men under his command.

Originally posted by filosophia
I can hear the pro holocausters foaming at the mouth when I say this, so Ill say it again: what if he was framed, and it was all soviet atrocities. I first started to question the holocaust before questioning the hitler myth, so even before having sympathy for hitler, I knew the holocaust stoty could not possibly be true.

To believe such a thing, one would have to be deeply closed to the reality of the plethora of information that surrounds these events. While I do not believe that the Germans, at the outset of hostilities, ever had any intention of committing mass genocide against the Reich Jews, it is clear, by their actions, that they did intend Genocide against the East.

Originally posted by filosophia
Oh and dont bring up crazy racial law otherwise I will discuss who can and can not marry a cohen
www.virtualjerusalem.com...

edit on 6-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

I fail to see the relevance and I point again, with some revulsion, at the Nuremburg Laws.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Just so Im clear, can you post the relevant sections of the posen speech. It is long and I just want to know what specific parts you consider the smoking gun.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Well now I know you are biased if you hate german race laws but cant see how jewish race laws are similar. A convert cant marry a cohen, thats not racist? That is the very definition of racism with no regard yo ideology or religion.

Originally posted by filosophia
Hitlers unwavering honesty when it came to everything else regarding the jewish question.

I'd like you to explain just what you mean by this by the way. (I've corrected your typo btw)

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by filosophia
Hitlers unwavering honesty when it came to everything else regarding the jewish question.

I'd like you to explain just what you mean by this by the way. (I've corrected your typo btw)

Im on a tab so I wont apologize for typos. Hitler was brutally honest about his revulsion of the jews in mein kampf but never mentions gas chambers. That is why it doesnt make sense he would outwardly despise the jews but secretly and in code try and destroy them. That is more the behavior of a lying, murderous bolshevik.

Originally posted by filosophia


Just so Im clear, can you post the relevant sections of the posen speech. It is long and I just want to know what specific parts you consider the smoking gun.

How about this - I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' [...] But of all those who talk this way, none had observed it, none had endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or when 1,000 are lined up. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person - with exceptions due to human weaknesses - had made us tough. This is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. [...] We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.

Oh and there's this as well: One basic principle must be the absolute rule for the SS men : We must be honest, decent, loyal and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech, does not interest me in the slightest. What other nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary, by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an antitank ditch interests me only insofar as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished.

Oh and this as well: I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. [...] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.

Originally posted by filosophia
Oh and dont bring up crazy racial law otherwise I will discuss who can and can not marry a cohen
www.virtualjerusalem.com...

If you fail to understand the implications of the Nuremberg Laws you will continue to fail to understand the holocaust and to see it for what it was. The introduction of those laws made it impossible for Jews to fend for themselves. They could own businesses, they had to sold, usually for paltry sums to ethnic Germans, they couldn't own property, so were forced from their homes, and Germans moved in, and they couldn't work for pay. They had no means, whatsoever, of supporting themselves and their families.

To begin with, they were able to use their personal possessions to barter for food, but this was subject to a major clamp down by the Gestapo, due to it's detrimental effect on the economy. Then, as they were forced into more and more cramped conditions, and eventually shut within ghettos, they were dependent upon food given to them by their keepers who employed them in factories attached to the ghettos. It was no where near sufficient to support good health, and with limited access to clean water, they began to die of starvation and to suffer disease, which further weakened them making them.

It was at this stage, that Rolf Heinz Hoppner, Head of the SD in Posen, wrote to Eichmann...

"It should be seriously considered if the most humane solution would not be to kill those Jews not capable of work with some quick acting means. This would certainly be more pleasant than allowing them to starve to death."

The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution By Mark Roseman. (P45)

And so this is what became the subject of discussion, to humanely dispose of the Jewish Question in the Reich.

Originally posted by filosophia
Im on a tab so I wont apologize for typos. Hitler was brutally honest about his revulsion of the jews in mein kampf but never mentions gas chambers. That is why it doesnt make sense he would outwardly despise the jews but secretly and in code try and destroy them. That is more the behavior of a lying, murderous bolshevik.

Sorry, but this makes no sense at all. Of course he didn't mention the gas chambers in Mein Kampf, because they hadn't even been planned at that point. Mein Kampf was his diatribe against the world. It also gave some pointers to his plans.

And to be clear about the actions in the East, and to what Himmler is referring to in that speech, about those knowing what it is to see hundreds of bodies lining the ground, one only need look at the Jager Report...

The Jäger Report was written on 1 December 1941 by Karl Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando 3, a killing unit of Einsatzgruppen A which was attached to Army Group North during Operation Barbarossa. It is the most precise surviving chronicle of the activities of one individual Einsatzkommando.

The Jäger Report is a tally sheet of actions by Einsatzkommando 3, including the Rollkommando Hamann killing squad. The report keeps an almost daily running total of the liquidations of 137,346 people, the vast majority Jews, from 2 July 1941 to 25 November 1941. The report documents exact date and place of the massacres, number of victims and their breakdown into categories (Jews, communists, criminals, etc.). In total, there were over 100 executions in 71 different locations listed there.[1] On 1 February 1942, Jäger updated the totals to 136,421 Jews (46,403 men, 55,556 women and 34,464 children), 1,064 Communists, 653 mentally disabled, and 134 others in a handwritten note for Franz Walter Stahlecker.[1]

The six-page report was prepared in five copies, but only one survives and is kept by the Central Lithuanian Archives in Vilnius.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


The first passage is talking about masses of german bodies, not jews. The translation is also suspect as my text does not say exterminated. The second passage says nothing of gas chambers or secret code. The third passage says he is not justified in killing the men, which is why the jewish question of deportation was so difficult.

So where does himmler lay out a secret code plan? A few empty passages somehow makes this impossible code holocaust possible? Sorry I dont think so, plus himmler was ousted as a traitor so other than a history lesson I dont see any smoking gun in the speech.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


If hitler wanted to kill every last jew, he probably would have talked about it in mein kampf, unless you believe he secretly wanted to do so, which is a subjective unproven claim.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Oh no, I understand the nuremberg laws, which establish a hoax war crime as legal basis to outlaw holocaust denial and revisionism in over a dozen european countries, the same fake war crimes trial that gives israel carte blanch to do as they please with palestine. Yes I know the significance of nurmberg.