Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Nichirasu Kenshin, Bokononism! lol It's been years since I've read "Cat's Cradle" or anything by Vonnegut. I can see where Bokononism might have some practical uses.

Thank you for the leads: Raul Hilberg's 3 volume work (over 1200 pages), the Axis history forum and Holocaust controversies blog!

I don't know where you find the patience to deal with these Holocaust deniers. For the most part, they are merely Jew-haters & Israel-haters who are NOT interested in facts.

Thank you for fighting the good fight!

SeaWind

Originally posted by ken10


(1) The collecting of a group of people, who had their heads shaved and their clothes fumigated to prevent disease.

Finish it....collecting an ethnic group of people and walling them up so they slowly starved or died of disease, while that seemed too slow they help them along (hotly debated…)

BTW did Germany declare war on some of their own people? I’m not sure how we might compare it to China’s toll of 100 million as they moved into their communism phase or Stalin's 20 to 40 million, but it is their history now and I say they have a right to ensure people do not forget less we repeat it.

(2) The Deliberate targeting of the general population of Germany, with the indiscriminate carpet bombing of its major cities by the British.

I would say that was more us the Americans since we had the bombers, but much of that was due to the lack of technology in bomb dropping and the navigator had to pick the highest point in the town and walk the bombs to the desired target.

I think your better choice was fire bombing of Japan. Much worst than the nukes...

(1) The Gassing and cremation of some peoples (though hotly debated), but from which there are many survivors.

(2) The deliberate use of Nuclear devices on a general populace, Knowing it would incinerate many tens of thousands of innocent peoples Instantly.
(No Debate needed)

Well since you put it that way, some, a few, one or two...hehe, I guess the nukes were worst..you win

I guess to me it is all in the reason for the act. I can walk up to a guy and say I don't like him and kill him, or I can kill a person that threatens my life. Both are the same act of killing, but the first one is an act of evil to me and the second is an act of survival.

Japan would not have surrendered without breaking the will of that nation and the nukes broke their will. Apart of that not surrendering was due to their belief that we would rape pillage and plunder the country since they practiced those same methods, and so they were willing to fight to the death.

They were completely surprised that we didn’t and actually help develop the strong government they have today. We also provided the means for women in their country to receive equal rights. I lived in Japan for five years and the few times I visited the shrines I was greeted well by many old people who lived through the reconstruction.

In any case…guilty as charged on all accounts your honor. We killed 100s of thousands of civilians and you will never hear me try to minimize it to a few.











[edit on 18-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
My current view on the Holocaust issue is the result of several books written by controversial british historian David Irving. He is famous for his meticulous research

Very wrong, he is NOT famous for meticulous research.... he is famous for lying!

""Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. ... if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian".
www.holocaustdenialontrial.org...

Originally posted by ken10
he is a very articulate person who can recall all information backed by facts at will.
...
He is IMO a true seeker of the truth, Just as quick to highlight factual German atrocities as he is to dispel any myths of the holocaust. I recommend everyone to watch them.

He cannot recall facts, he was proven to be a liar in a UK court, he knows nothing about truth!

reply to post by filosophia


1: Zyklon B was a pesticide, not a disinfectant.
2. Reconstruction is irrelevant. No reason to even mention it.
3. That may be the "official" reason, but it's dehumanizing all the same.
4. Nuremberg was a show for the public. The important Nazis disappeared under suspicious circumstances.
5. It was the truth. Humanity is sickening.

I used to believe the Holocaust but there is too much evidence that suggests that it didn't happen in the way we have been told.
1.The official number has changed many times but it was 4 million after the war(which later became 6 million) but was brought down to 1.5 million when the Russians announced the actual figure.......of course htis was not talked about by the media.
2.Practically every major Jewish story in the camp which was used as evidence has been found out to be an absolute lie.
3.The gas chambers never showed any sign of gas(the only rooms to have traces of gas in them were the rooms where gas was used to get rid of lice from clothes and bedding)and the actual ovens have been proven to have never been used.
4.The chambers as we see them now and how we are told things happened there is completely wrong because the chambers were never one room!the Russians did however use some of these buildings to test their own gas and knocked the walls down after the war.

I could go on all day with things that are forbidden to be taught at school or put into the history books but another thing that annoys me is why are people being put away for denying something that doesn't add up? thats the icing on the cake for me and many others.

We know that the allies had broken all the German codes and were monitoring all the messages concerning the Jewish Ghetto refugees. Alan Turing and the Bletchley park personnel would have kept allied high command informed. The concentration camps were populated by train transport which was scheduled and reported using radio authenticated with the enigma cipher. There were also a considerable number of diplomatic and humanitarian channels including the Red Cross to investigate and lodge complaints.

Logically if the allies knew the Ghetto inhabitants were being sent to concentration camps then their silence was a form of tacit approval. The allies may have believed that concentrating a Ghetto population into camps would be more efficient and perhaps even safer away from the cities that were being bombed.

The problem I have is with the "final solution" stories that are so prevalent. Put yourself in the place of the Nazi's. The war is going badly and they are running out of food, what are you going to do with the concentration camp populations? This is where the story just gets whacko. We are told that the Nazi's dreamed up this heinous final solution and built special gas chambers and crematoriums to kill and dispose of millions of displaced Ghetto dwellers.

Think on your own just a little wouldn't it be a lot easier just to bring the trains back and use a little Diesel fuel to let them escape out of Germany? Get on the Coffee pot radio and call the UK. Goldilocks Goldilocks this is Papa bear we need a train? The German high command would have been delighted to let one of the allied countries feed and house the concentration camp populations.

I see a problem though, according to the history books Hitler was getting ready to marry Eva and after the wedding of course he planned to shoot her in the head and commit suicide himself. They would need that of diesel fuel to burn the bodies.

We may never know what the true solution to the problem of Germany running out of food was but I bet it was a lot brighter than anything we can think up on ATS!

I don't think it really matters whether they were gassed or starved to death millions died.

reply to post by filosophia


I always listen to both sides of every story and I have even given consideration to this. I don't chase after any denier with a pitchfork. But answer me this.. why gather the jews up at all then?
Say there was no gas chambers, is it less of a holocaust if you force people into conditions where death is a real possibility and many die from the poor living conditions?

What if the numbers were wrong.. does that make it any better?
Maybe I just don't need to bother with these conspiracy theories because I don't need to justify Israel running amok today and insult innocent, actual survivors by saying it's a get out of jail free card.

Israel sucks, their government shames their people and their religion. No need to drag the names of the dead through it though.

Ok I just finished watching "The Last Days of the Big Lie". Very disturbing that some of the Holocaust survivors stories turned out to be frauds. What was very shocking though, was that some of the Holocaust Survivors described Auschwitz as a picnic where they were entertained by music, sports, theatre, day care, arts and crafts, books, given money allowances, healthcare, etc. I've never heard of that before. WTF?!

Here are clips from interviews with Holocaust survivors who tell a very different story than our media and Steven Spielberg do.



How do you all explain that? They also show pictures from Auschwitz where the prisoners look normal and well fed, not malnourished or dying. Here are some you can see below. They paint a very different picture of the Nazi concentration camps from the ones we've been shown.

sites.google.com...-Former-Concentration-Camp-Inmates-T

Auschwitz camp nurses



Auschwitz camp concerts




Auschwitz soccer team



Auschwitz post cards to send at the post office




Auschwitz credit allowances that were redeemable in the cantina




Gee, do all those photos above look like part of an extermination death camp? You gotta wonder...

The documentary ends with an explanation of Hitler's Big Lie quote and how it applies to the Big Lie of the Holocaust. Today, most people think that the Big Lie technique is a propaganda tool Hitler used to trick the masses of Germany. In actuality, Hitler pointed out that the Jews were the creators and master of telling The Big Lie.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote:

But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists...


All this was inspired by the principle -- which is quite true in itself -- that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.


From time immemorial, however, the Jews have known better than any others how falsehood can be exploited. Is not their very existence founded on one great lie, namely, that they are a religious community, whereas in reality they are a race? And what a race! One of the greatest thinkers that mankind has produced has branded the Jews for all time with a statement which is profoundly and exactly true. He called the Jew "The Great Master of Lies."


Those who do not realize the truth of that statement, or do not wish to believe it, will never be able to lend a hand in helping Truth to prevail.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Chapter X, Causes of the Collapse

Here is a series of clips of arguments from Holocaust Deniers. They are very interesting, especially the part where David Cole explains on the Donahue Show why the physical evidence at Auschwitz doesn't match what is claimed there as gas chambers.



So what do you all think? Mind blowing isn't it? Doesn't that totally rock your paradigm?

if you wish to avoid rehashing the already hashed simply remember that participation is not mandatory.
2nd line

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by filosophia

 

I always listen to both sides of every story and I have even given consideration to this. I don't chase after any denier with a pitchfork. But answer me this.. why gather the jews up at all then?
Say there was no gas chambers, is it less of a holocaust if you force people into conditions where death is a real possibility and many die from the poor living conditions?

What if the numbers were wrong.. does that make it any better?
Maybe I just don't need to bother with these conspiracy theories because I don't need to justify Israel running amok today and insult innocent, actual survivors by saying it's a get out of jail free card.

Israel sucks, their government shames their people and their religion. No need to drag the names of the dead through it though.

edit on 29-6-2011 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)

Sorry I was so late in responding. better late than never?

Why round up jews at all? Remember that no rothschild, warburg, or rockefellar was killed in concentration camps. So if jews were killed it was not the elite jews. Funny how hitler supposedly believed this jewish conspiracy ran the world yet he did not execute one international banker.

If jews were killed, which most likely they were, it was because they were poor, so they were killed not so much because of their jewishness but because they were lower class, degenerates as the nazis might say. Original holocaust numbers estimated 6 million jews and 5 million polish prisoners of war, so the real victims were civilians and prisoners of war.

In addition, the elite could use the jews as sacrificial lambs to hde their political crimes behind, so that if you accuse one of wrongdoing, they could just call you anti semitic. This does have everything to do with their religion.



Most people assume holocaust denial is ignoring a genocide because it's too emotionally damaging, but this just plays into the myth of the holocaust being the worst absolute most horrible event in history and if you think it is one iota less you are racist. The real holocaust was world war one and two which killed an estimated seventy million people, "christians" we might as well say if we are going to label six million people jewish. The worst of the crimes were Eugenic experiments by nazis but these same methods are still used by the cia. However these deaths were not 11 million or 6 million, and even if they were just one, yes it would be a crime, but you have to keep in mind that the holocaust myth gave the excuse to invade iraq, saddam was called a hitler,and he had weapons of mass destruction, a horrible myth which would not have ben believable if people did not put such faith in the holocaust and other such propaganda. Even today, iran is being charged with trying to write israel off the map even though they obviously have not done so yet. Would this allegation fly if the holocaust was not still fresh in people's minds?

If it were just 600 instead of 6 million?

Think of an honest middle class Polish gentleman.
He and his family are rounded up by the Nazis and sent to concentration camps.
Some did not survive but he did and returned home a broken man.
Unable to work he lost what few possessions he had been able to reclaim
When he died his family inherited no home or business.
The German people wishing to make amends begin paying reparations. Millions upon millions in reparations.
But neither this gentleman or his family receive a cent because they were Christians. The organizations that distribute the monies received from Germany funnel it all to the jewish people.
The question of whether we are discussing a holocaust or a jewish holocaust is very relevant. How much money that should have gone to non-jewish survivors ever made it past the jewish bookeepers?
If it turns out there were only 600 jews killed then I suggest Israel owes the Polish Christians one hell of a big check. Perhaps that's why they don't want to hear about anything except a JEWISH holocaust.

This thread contains some of the most disgusting comments I've ever seen. Staggeringly ignorant ones as well. The Holocaust happened. It was born out of the mindset of a twisted thing that thought he was human - Adolf Hitler. His anti-semitism was on display for all to see - in his speeches, in his writings and above all in his actions. And he was in charge of an entire country!
By the way, I'd like to point out to all those who have made the mistake of thinking that David Irving was a reputable source that the man is in fact a liar and bully. The Irving libel trial made it official.

I know the Zyklon-B issue that the OP raised has already been disputed and debunked, but for future and further reference I hope this helps.

Note that the purple streaks were attributed to the Zyklon-B

In 1787 the French chemist Claude Louis Berthollet showed that Prussic acid did not contain oxygen, an important contribution to acid theory, which had hitherto postulated that acids must contain oxygen[3] (hence the name of oxygen itself, which is derived from Greek elements that mean "acid-former" and are likewise calqued into German as Sauerstoff). In 1815 Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac deduced Prussic acid's chemical formula. The radical cyanide in hydrogen cyanide was given its name from the Greek word for blue, again owing to its derivation from Prussian blue.

A hydrogen cyanide concentration of 300 mg/m3 in air will kill a human within about 10 minutes. It is estimated that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 3500 ppm (about 3200 mg/m3) will kill a human in about 1 minute. The toxicity is caused by the cyanide ion, which halts cellular respiration by inhibiting an enzyme in mitochondria called cytochrome c oxidase.

MSDS

There are a couple of different sites with MSDS on them but I chose one that did not show any bias. The maker of the Zyklon-B that was used was produced by Bayer

One crematorium was rebuilt I think, after it has been destroyed by the Whermacht. There are plenty of eyewhitnessaccounts about the camps and I am not aware of inmates coming forward making the claim, that what we have been taught in hitsory classes is made up.

I dont see how you can straight up DENY the holocaust...but I like many only question the numbers killed, dont get me wrong, 600, 6000, 60000, etc is too many. But I just dont believe the millions is all, Does this make me out as a denier??

I think very few think the whole thing is made up, but many question certain parts and facts. And to say this is a sick, unhuman thing to do is ignorance.

I just hope nothing like this ever occurs again in our or any lifetime.

This has to be THE dumbest (by far) thread on ATS, and this says a lot. My grandfather spend the last few months of the war in Majdanek, so I know first hand what went on there. Claiming the holocaust didn't happen is so silly, I worry for our education system

reply to post by filosophia

Why round up jews at all? Remember that no rothschild, warburg, or rockefellar was killed in concentration camps.

They didn't get killed because they had the funds and means to escape, not because Hitler spared them somehow

A large number of Rothschilds spent the war in Switzerland, the UK, and outside the war zone for example.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
This has to be THE dumbest (by far) thread on ATS, and this says a lot. My grandfather spend the last few months of the war in Majdanek, so I know first hand what went on there. Claiming the holocaust didn't happen is so silly, I worry for our education system

edit on 14-12-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

Did your grandfather get gassed? No, so that does not disprove holocaust denial. No one is denying concentration camps. It's not nice to call someone's thread dumb. Shouldn't we be more mature than that? If even a holocaust denier knows manners certainly you do too?