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Originally posted by filosophia
The thread is about debunking the videos, they are the explosive evidence, and so far you haven't convinced me.
The plaque, which once stated 4 million now states 1.5 million, and it's not as you say because one lists only Jews and the other lists Jews and Poles. That is wrong.
I can read the plaque and I know that your views on this are wrong.
Next, I gave you linguistical evidence that perhaps you could not comprehend. Cole uses "quotations" around certain words, as like you do when you say that Zundel believed it was a "forced retraction," you see, you are subconsciously refusing to believe this said retraction, because it interferes with your previously held beliefs.
Thus, you put the statement in quotations to mean it sarcastically, like you doubt it existed. Why then, would Cole use that same technique against his own documentary which he obviously believed exist if he made it?
The only possibilities is that either the letter was forged or that Cole wrote it in such a way to demean himself and get his critics off his back, and that is still writing under coercion.
Furthermore, you still have not commented on the fact that Zyklon B residue was found in the delousing chamber and not the gas chamber itself.
Furthermore, the video clearly shows the director of the museum admitting that the walls were removed in order for it to look more like a gas chamber, because otherwise people would see it as multiple rooms, not one giant room.
The walls were added when the building was used as an air raid shelter. So they have removed whatever evidence of Zyklon B would have been on the walls. But since the building did not get damaged in the war, and it was used as an air raid shelter so further proof it was stabilized, there would have been evidence of Zyklon B on the ceilings and floor.
This is not the case. In addition, the door into the back chamber has glass in it, hardly a air tight chamber.
I'm not convinced you have successfully debunked any of these claims.
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
IMHO, my last post established that Mattogno has, in some instances been i) intellectually dishonest and ii) been proven to make claims that are demonstratebly false.
Zimmerman, I will admit, has, as has Van Pelt, made some grave mistakes in his arguments too. But those mistakes, as far as I can discern, don't pertain to the open-pit debate.
Originally posted by filosophia
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
On yahoo babel fish, Schutzblock does not translate as "sent to reconvalescent camp", but translates as Protection block. They must have been practicing some heavy double speak if they call an extermination camp a Protection block.
[edit on 12-8-2010 by filosophia]
[edit on 12-8-2010 by filosophia]
By the early summer of 1944, the ground water level, which had fallen at the beginning of the year, had risen again. This is evident in a telegram from Jothanns to Kammler dated June 2, 1944. Jothann stated that he had refused approval, on hygienic grounds, for the use of 14 barracks located in Building Segment III of Birkenau Camp, adding:
"The barracks are only partly covered, the terrain is marshy, and not leveled in any way. There is a danger of pollution of the ground water and the creation of other hotbeds of epidemics."
For this reason, any two pits, two to three meters deep, dug in the north courtyard of Crematoriums V, would certainly have struck water at the bottom. The ground water level was even higher in the area near the so-called "Bunker 2", located outside the grounds of the camp, rendering the excavation of pits of this depth absolutely impossible.
1. The experiments show that animal fat, when heated to a temperature that can be reached by means of a wood fire, will burn readily.
2. Experiment 3 demonstrates that animal fat, when in contact with glowing embers, will ignite. Consequently, in a cremation trench, the human fat oozing out of the corpses and dripping through the burning wood, possibly reaching the layer of embers at the bottom of the trench, would burn without being able to flow over the bed of embers towards the alleged reservoirs. This was confirmed later by the experimental incineration in a furnace as described above, during which the fat dripping from the flesh into the ash tray ignited immediately and burned.
3. Experiment 2 demonstrates that any liquid fat, hypothetically dripping down below the embers into the alleged recovery channels, would burn under the effect of radiation from the glowing embers and by contact with them.
4. Experiment 1 demonstrates that human fat, hypothetically flowing into the recovery reservoir would, on account of the heat radiation from the fire, burn with bright and high flames, making it impossible not only to recover the fat, but also to get anywhere near the edge of the trench.
In any case, the injection of cold air into the muffles (the Topf ovens at Auschwitz did not possess any device for preheating the combustion air) would have caused nothing but a worsening of the problem and yet more smoke. Prüfer's explanation is technically unfounded. His attempts at reducing the smoke not only did not reduce it, they made matters worse.
With respect to the specific topic of the Topf ovens at Auschwitz, it would be technically erroneous and in contradiction with obvious facts to maintain that they did not smoke. These ovens, as we have seen, were not equipped with the technical devices to monitor the production of smoke (flue gas analyzers) or to prevent it (such as the recycling loop to burn smoke as used at Dessau), which civilian ovens possessed. Their coarse and simple design invariably led to smoke generation.
Whoever thinks that the propaganda figure of four million can be dropped without punishment deceives himself completely. This figure is closely connected with the thesis of mass extermination in Auschwitz and cannot be thrown overboard without bringing the whole artificial building into sway. Regardless of the futile efforts of Jean-Claude Pressac to prove this thesis of mass extermination by documents, it is up to this day based exclusively on statements of alleged eye witnesses, and Pressac himself had to make use of those when he tried to describe the first alleged homicidal gassing in crematorium II of Birkenau.
As already said, the witness testimonies and the four million figure were intimately woven together right from the start, in a way that the refutation of the witness testimonies would have been equivalent to a refutation of this figure and vice versa; at the same time, the entire thesis of mass extermination in Auschwitz would become untenable.
Thus this 'critical spirit' of the Auschwitz museum, who reduced the number of victims of the camp to almost a quarter, opportunistically invented a cremation capacity, which was eight times above the actual capacity! F. Piper of course knows exactly that the credibility of his 'eyewitnesses' goes down the drain if he would state the true capacity of the ovens, and this would also render all the allegations about homicidal gassings from these same witnesses untrustworthy. This is the reason why the Auschwitz museum is and continues to be an authority on superstition and prefers fairy tales of 'eyewitnesses' over science.
One example will suffice. In his "Supplementary Response" to Zimmerman Mattogno writes:
Zimmerman writes on p.19 of Body Disposal:
«Kurt Prufer, builder of the ovens, was asked why the brick linings of the ovens were damaged so quickly. He replied that the damage resulting after six months was "because the strain on the furnaces was enormous." He recounted how he had told Topf's chief engineer in charge of crematoria, Fritz Sanders, about the strain on the furnaces of so many corpses waiting to be incinerated as a result of the gassing. Sanders stated that he had been told by Prufer and another Topf engineer that the "capacity of the furnaces was so great because three [gassed] corpses were incinerated [in one oven] simultaneously.»
"Prufer said that two bodies were simultaneously incinerated in his presence" (note 122).
The reference is to the interrogations of the Topf engineers on the part of a Soviet inquiry of SMERSH between 1946 and 1948. The records were published by Gerald Fleming,7 from which Zimmerman takes his citations (notes 121 and 122).
In reality Kurt Prufer stated the very opposite of what Zimmerman attributed to him by means of a despicable manipulation.
On page 200 of the cited work, this is how Fleming summarizes part of the interrogation which K.Prufer underwent on 5 March 1946:
"Normal crematoria 8 work with prewarmed air 9 so that the corpse burns quickly and without smoke. As the crematoria in the concentration camps were constructed differently, this procedure could not be used.10 The corpses burned more slowly and created more smoke, necessitating ventilation.
Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?
Answer: In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned." [my emphasis]
During the interrogation of 19 March, K.Prufer declared:
"I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain." 11 [my italics]
Recapitulating, Kurt Prufer stated that:
1. The cremations in the concentration camp ovens took place "more slowly" than in civilian ovens.
2. In Krema II and Krema III of Birkenau (5 three-muffle ovens) it was possible to cremate 15 cadavers in one hour, that is, the duration of a single cremation was one hour.
3. The attempt to simultaneously cremate two cadavers failed because "the furnaces could not stand the strain."
These three statements alone constitute a radical refutation of Zimmerman's thermotechnical fantasies.
I summarize and conclude that:
a. in order to prove the thesis of "multiple" cremations, Zimmerman quotes a second-hand declaration of Prufer and omits the primary declaration of Prufer himself;
b. for the same motive, Zimmerman quotes Prufer's statement in which he "said that two bodies were simultaneously incinerated in his presence," but omits the statement which follows: "The furnaces could not stand the strain."
These surgical omissions are unequivocal proof of Zimmerman's complete and deliberate deceptiveness.
Here's my translation of the excerpts sent to me by Mattogno:
pub86.ezboard.com... ... =177.topic
I was telling Sander that I attended testing of ovens in crematorium in concentration camp Auschwitz, that I came to conclusion that crematoriums could not cope with such a number of corpses, which were there to be burned, because the ovens of the crematoriums are of low capacity. At that, gave an example to Sander, that when I were in Auschwitz, in my presence two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria muffles instead of one, and even then crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn. At the same time I said to Sander that the corpses seen by me were killed in gas chambers earlier.
Ans some comments:
There are certain subtle nuances in Russian interrogation protocol, that might or might not have existed in Pruefer's original statements, so we must be cautious about them. These nuances, however, do not support "revisionist" interpretation of the document.
1) "...two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria muffles instead of one..."
It is not clear from this phrase whether Pruefer is talking about continuous shoving of the corpses into muffles, or about the multiple instances of such at one time (2-3 corpses in the first muffle, 2-3 corpses in the second muffle, etc.).
2) "...and even then..." [Russian "i to"]
I'd say that it implies that Pruefer thought of multiple cremations as more efficient than single cremations.
"- And "even then", even when 2-3 corpses were pushed into one muffle, ovens couldn't cope with the load. So if they would push just one corpse into one muffle, they would certainly get nowhere".
3) "...ovens did not cope with that load..."
Sometimes wrongly translated as "ovens couldn't stand the strain", which might even imply physical damage. It's clear from the text that Pruefer talks about the difficulty of burning the overall number of corpses, not about the supposed damage done to the ovens by 2-3 corpses in an oven. This intepretation is supported by the following two phrases:
a) "...I came to conclusion that crematoriums could not cope with such a number of corpses, which were there to be burned, because the ovens of the crematoriums are of low capacity..."
Here Pruefer explains what is that "load" the ovens could not cope with, and why.
b) "...and even then crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn..."
Here Pruefer explains again why ovens did not cope with the load.
Thus, Pruefer did not say that multiple cremations failed.
The finishing touch is the letter to me from Mattogno, in which he said:
As far as I knew the Russian language, I understand that the passage you point out is ambiguous. However it is important to consider that both Pr?fer and Sander stated that the crematory ovens in Birkenau could incinerate one corpse per muffle per hour. (emphasis mine)
However, while reading through Franciszek Piper's Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz, I came across the following citation on p.77, taken by Piper from reports of the Polish Delegatura, i.e. the shadow government under Nazi occupation:
"Der Massenmord an den Juden geht weiter - vor allem Frauen .... Waehrend der Vergasung von 30 000 Juden aus dem Dabrowa-Gebiet kamen die Krematorien nicht mit dem Verbrennen der Leichen nach, so dass sie auf Scheiterhaufen verbrannt wurden, und die Kinder wurden lebendig ins Feuer geworfen"
The mass murder of the Jews continues - women above all. During the gassing of 30,000 Jews from the Dabrowa region, the crematoria could not keep up with the burning of the bodies, so that they were burned on pyres and the children were thrown alive into the fire.
Piper cites the 1968 Polish publication Oboz koncentracyjny Oswiecim w swietle akt Delegatury, p.142, so there is no case to argue that this citation has been dredged up to counter 'revisionist' contentions. It is, in fact, 38 years old in its published form.
Ah, you might say, but the underground report is hearsay. Yet we also have Hoess's own testimony, which I quote again:
"Number IV [Kr 5] had to be repeatedly shut down, since after its fires had been burning for from four to six weeks, the ovens or the chimneys burnt out. The gassed bodies were mostly burnt in pits behind crematorium IV [Kr V]”
In his magnum opus, Pressac reinterpreted this as a reference to the resumption of open-air cremation during the Hungarian Action; in fact, it should now be read as also referring to the earlier, August 1943 stop-gap use of the open-air pits. Both common sense as well as the underground report corroborate this interpretation.
It was at this time that a series of Allied aerial reconnaissance missions flew over the camp to photograph the I.G. Farben industrial works at the Buna (Auschwitz III) complex. Starting in April 1944 and ending in January 1945, these images inadvertently contained the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination complex during the final phases of the camp, including the extermination of the Hungarian Jews 6. In their 1979 publication entitled The Holocaust Revisited: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz -Birkenau Extermination ComplexDino Brugioni and Robert Poirier analyzed and presented highly magnified images from this footage 7. These photos exposed much of the daily life at Auschwitz-Birkenau: columns of prisoners marching in the camp, recent arrivals being led to the gas chambers, and the eventual demolition and evacuation of the camp in early 1945. One photo taken on June 26,1944 shows several pits just northwest of Krema V, precisely where eyewitness accounts claim bodies were burned
# Stanley II, Roy M. World War II Photo Intelligence. New York: Charles Scribner and Sons, " " 1981 p 346.
# Brugioni, Dino A. and Poirier, Robert G. The Holocaust Revisited: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Center. Washington D.C.: Central Intelligence Agency, " " 1979. Document Number NTISUB E 280 002.
# Mueller, Filip. Eyewitness Auschwitz. New York : Stein and Day, " " 1979. pp 136-139
# Hoess, Rudolph. Quoted in Nazism: A History in Documents and Eyewitness Accounts, 1919-1945. ed. by J. Noakes and G. Pridham. New York: Shocken Books, " " 1988. p 1181
Several indications of extermination activities can be identified in the camp. Smoke can be seen near the camp's main filtration facility. While this is to be expected near the camp crematoria, where bodies had to be burned in open pits during the hectic days of the Hungarian Jewish influx, it is a surprise to see it here. There are a number of ground traces near Gas Chambers and Crematoria IV and V which could also be connected with extermination activities.
Originally posted by Puck 22
reply to post by neformore
If the numbers do not matter why have various Jewish groups helped push through laws all over Europe demanding fines for those who question the numbers and prison for those who refuse to stop questioning these numbers that do not matter?
The Sonderaktion 1005, also called Aktion 1005, or Enterdungsaktion (English: Exhumation action) was conducted during World War II to hide any evidence that millions of people had been murdered by Nazi Germany in Aktion Reinhard in occupied Poland.
As the war progressed, it was later used to conceal the evidence of massacres committed by SS-Einsatzgruppen Nazi death squads that murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews, Roma and Russian civilians in Eastern Europe.
I'm late getting into this debate but people seem to not see the bigger picture.
1. Every Jewish business and property was taken from them not only in Germany but occupied areas as well.
2. Every Jew that could be found was put in horrendous camps that slowly starved them and created cesspools of sickness.