Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

Originally posted by D377MC
reply to post by Sashromi

 

First, being a WWII history major from a serious university, and a retired US Army intelligence officer who actually served in Germany
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Really? In that capacity would you care to address the NYT articles 6 posts above your own? I'm really curious...

This has already been done by another Historian (I am one too) in the beginning of the post. There's nothing to address. Some well connected Zionists in the early 1920's exaggerated the deaths of some 10'000 of jews and some progroms into the possibility of 6million dying - "the 6 million on the brink of starvation".
Why this hardly matters is because a) it was not a common poisition held by all World Jewry (mainly a Sulzberger trick) b) nobody believed them c)it had no political consequences d) they did make some good money out of it, but that's all.

The point is that it happened to the jews ALSO. And saying it doesn't take away from the tradgedy that is occured to other groups of peoples like: Soviet POWs, homosexuals, Russian farmers, native-American Indians, black Africans, etc. They are all horrid manifestations of the evil part of our nature.

So please help me. What other groups in Nazi Germany besides the Jews were systematically identifyed be the census and then collectively deported just for having ancestors of a certain faith?

Did they round up and execute every Soviet Pow? Did they round up and execute everyone who had a homosexual forebear? Did they round up all the kids of the Russian farmers?
Claiming that the Jews did not hold a singular position in the thinking and actions of the Nazis is to disregard the historical record.

Maybe, the fact remains however that none of these groups have museums erected all over the world in their honour, nor do they whine year in and year out for pecuniary compensation, nor were they gifted a land of their own, and finally they seem to manage to get on with life quite fine without shoving their 'choseness' in everyone's face all the time.

Anyone who does not believe the holocaust happened, or wants to believe it didn't happen is either extremely stupid or you are getting way too involved in unlikely conspiracy theories.
The proof of the holocaust is all over europe.

Look, I've given up reading half these comments.

Many of you are using your ignorance of the Holocaust as proof that it didn't happen.

I suggest you read some books on the subject and not watch some dodgy youtube videos.

Here are some books on the subject:

The Holocaust by Martin Gilbert

Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution

Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews

Forgotten Voices of the Holocaust

For those of you just coming into the thread and posting insults, you could at least try to have a debate and try inform and educate these people and refute their arguments with facts. I've tried to do that to a certain extent, but there is only so much I can do.

My suggestion is that those who deny the Holocaust go and read some books about it.

Because no one ever reads the whole thread... Here again is what the guy playing the role of self-hating Jew in these Videos (David Cole) has to say about those today:

www.nizkor.org.../c/cole.david//cole.recants

THE STATEMENT OF DAVID COLE
Prepared January 2, 1998

This statement is given in an attempt to set the record
straight about my current views regarding the Holocaust and
Holocaust denial. As anyone who follows the subject of
Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well
known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier [a
self-described "revisionist"]. For the last three years I
have no longer been associated with this movement, having
realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking
with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I
have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of
my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by
my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to
distance myself from that life.

[....] edit by Nichirasu

I would like to state for the record that there is no
question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's
Jews during World War Two, the Nazis employed gas chambers
in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps
in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in
gas chambers which employed such poison gasses as Zyklon B
and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the
gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is
overwhelming and unmistakable.

[...] Edit by Nichirasu

It has been brought to my attention that Bradley Smith is
still using one of my videos in advertisements he is running
on college campuses. Therefore, I would like to make these
additional points: This video is being advertised without my
consent, and I denouce this video as being without worth.
Bradley Smith is no historian, and denial is no "historical
field." Students on college campuses should look elsewhere
to find out about the Holocaust.

This is the guy who is walking around with Zundel in the Video. He has recanted on these videos years ago. He has been severly misused for Revisionist Propaganda.

If you believe his words - you might as well believe the last words he had to say on this subject: The videos are Garbage and the Holocaust happened.



Case closed?

[edit on 8-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

This has already been done by another Historian (I am one too)

You describe yourself as a Historian, So can you tell me based on your research, How many jews do you think died in the holocaust ?

Originally posted by Conan The Usurper
Wait a minute here.

Questioning the accuracy of facts or evidence we have from the holocaust do NOT make those people holocaust deniers.

It's like saying that those who question the number of german tanks destroyed at Kursk around Prokhorovka, are battle of Kursk deniers.

This is ridiculous.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Conan The Usurper]

Funny you should say that. Because Prochorowka was part of post-WW2 Soviet Revisionism ... Modern scholarship tends to disbelieve and refute almost the whole of the Soviet story of the battle of the Kursk. It starts with the very beginning (the Soviets did not pre-encounter the offensive) and goes on and on and on (it was no great Panzer victory for the Soviets) ....

Well.. Anyway. There's history that is supported by historical evidence... And then there is history that is dreamed up in the minds of people who wish things would have gone differently. Prochorowka is a very good example of how the sources and the material evidence will eventually set the historical record straight - even if you have a World Power doing everything in their might to supress the truth.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Conan The Usurper
Questioning the accuracy of facts or evidence we have from the holocaust do NOT make those people holocaust deniers.

It's like saying that those who question the number of german tanks destroyed at Kursk around Prokhorovka, are battle of Kursk deniers.

This is ridiculous.

Funny you should say that, because you kind of prove a point by it.

No one questions that the other events happened.

That then should lead you to look at the motive for continually questioning only one.

Think about it.

This is silly, i fully know concentration camps were built and jews across nazi germany deported into them. That they died from forced labor, executions, starvation, gassing and who knows what, and that some survived the war too.

but just like the story at kursk we got first that came from russian source, that massive amount of russian tanks had rolled into the panzers and destroyed the werhmacht forces and put them into retreat was, hmmm, to say the least, questionable.

The point is, the storyside from the russian has now been OPENLY DEBATED without hatred and now the battle of kursk details are totally different than what we first had been told, even tho the consequences are still the same. From that battle on, the russian had the initiative, they had stopped a german very carefully planned offensive with everything they could throw at the russian.

So i guess the truth lies between 2 sides of the story.

Read not to contradict and confute, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. Sir Francis Bacon

To fully understand what went on, why certain things happened, and why certain things 'known' to be facts may be nothing more then one sided propaganda, you must open your mind to the possibility you are wrong, and read said books

1. A pre-war version of Mein Kampf (can be found on the internet)
2. The Young Hitler I Knew
www.archive.org...
3. The speeches given in Germany by the National Socialist party before coming into power, and after coming into power
Pree 1933 Speeches
Post 1933 Speeches

Also there is a treasure trove of books found on this website
Nazi Books

You will also find that the soviets were planning a massive European wide offencive, and it was in fact the Germans that saved the Western world from complete bolshevisation.

A little odd don't you think that the Allies declared war on Germany for invading Poland, and not on the Soviet Union ?

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

This has already been done by another Historian (I am one too)

You describe yourself as a Historian, So can you tell me based on your research, How many jews do you think died in the holocaust ?

Being a historian does not mean that I have personally done the most accurate count up to date.

Actually, I don't think the numbers matter. I can tell you one thing though: It wasn't exactly 6'000'000 and neither was it 5'999'999 nor 6'000'001. And that doesn't matter.
Alone the Einsatzgruppen, the Wehrmacht Massacres and the forced labor deaths runs up to millions. So I don't see the merit in meticulously documenting the total number of Jews who were gassed - it's a number in the millions anyways.

For me... Millions are Millions. I don't believe the 6 million number was gained through empirical inquiry. But that doesn't matter. Any rough estimate of the different campaigns runs into the millions. All else - for me at least - are details.

Originally posted by fapython


You will also find that the soviets were planning a massive European wide offencive, and it was in fact the Germans that saved the Western world from complete bolshevisation.

That's one of the oldest crocks in the books. Hitler used that very same sentence when Barbarossa began. That's like believing Bush that Iraq was a preventive war. Think about it. This is the evidence you give. Hitler said that on the radio. Wow. He must have been honest.

The "Preventive War Thesis" (Präventivkriegsthese) has been touted by HItler, Himmler and the rest and was the preffered defense of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS criminals in the courts. Luckily, this fals view of the events has been thoroughly debunked:

www1.historisches-centrum.de...

(This link shows how the preventive-war-thesis-promoters falsify quotes from Russian Generals in order to make their Revisionism fit.)

www.friedenspaedagogik.de... e

(this link brushes over the comments of Nazis regarding their view of the coming war. None of them attribute the motivation for it by citing a "Russian offensive")

- Hitler was determined to attack the Soviet Union long before he dreamed up the (non-existent) plans of a "Russian Attack"

- The Red army did neither have the operational nor strategic means to launch a succesfull attack against Germany in 1940/1941

- Stalin held true to the pact with Hitler - delivering essential war materials without which the Nazis couldn't have attacked the soviet Union - up to the very last day. In fact, the German offensive even waited for the Russian deliveries to reach Germany one last time before attacking.

- If you study the documents of the Generalstab of the Nazis, you will find that none of the field commanders did encounter Soviet troops in an offensive formation.

- The positioning of the Red Air Force is another good indicator that the Soviet Army was not on high alert at all (even though Stalin knew the date and the time of the beginning of Barbarossa)

I could go on and on. The preventive war thesis is one of the most debunked myths of history. I'd take a deabte on that one any time.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Ok so lets take some facts that even someone with half a brain can understand.

After Nuremberg trials, A figure of 6 million jews was reached.....Based on ALL evidence at that time. The result of that evidence concluded that 4 million jews had perished at Auschwitz.

Then around 1989, Further evidence released from the Soviets prompted a revision of the numbers that died at Auschwitz. This resulted in that number being reduced down to 1.5 million.

So the conclusion must be that the number of jews who perished was less than 3.5 million.

So armed with these FACTS, who is anyone to believe.....Those who still claim to the 6 million figure, or those who accept the revision and are accepting to further revision.

reply to post by filosophia


I love you Jew Haters...

But let's get back to the point that you will try to LOGICALLY tear apart the arguement that The Holocaust never happened the way it was stated.

Zyklon B was a disinfectant AND an insecticide. In their eternal drive for efficiency the Nazis found it was a cheap and efficient way to kill Jews and other undesirables.

Children are passing away in the Sudan. Women are being mutillated in the Middle East by an evil religion (that is not Jewish or Zionist) and the Chinese are murdering Uigers for being alive.

You spend your time trying to prove the Jews lied.

K. That's your God given right. But can you not use notorious Jew haters to prove your point? It makes you look even more foolish and anti-semetic.

reply to post by crmanager

you Jew Haters
you look even more foolish and anti-semetic.

I generally associate calling someone names and insulting them with hate more than I associate questioning facts with hate.

reply to post by ken10


Number juggling is crassly pointless.

Even if the figure is "only" 1.5 million, its still a henious act, worthy of singling out in history as it marked the first time humans were mechanically exterminated in an almost industrial process.

And...once again.. the ONLY reason this is questioned is because it involved jewish people when it boils down to it. There is no other reason at all.

And while the Israeli government may do particularly stupid things today, those things do not erase the genocide from history, or justify it in any way shape or form







[edit on 8/8/10 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore

Number juggling is crassly pointless.

How is stating facts "Number Juggling" ?



Ya know people used to think the Earth was flat, Then someone discovered it was round. Then the opinions of all the people who still believed the earth was flat became irrelevant.

But tomorrow you and others will still be quoting that 6 million jews died.

reply to post by ken10


And?

Does uttering such pointless drivel make a genocide any better?

reply to post by neformore


No, the "Drivel" comes from those who cannot accept FACTS. But try to use said "Drivel" to lesson the value of those Facts.

Originally posted by ken10


So armed with these FACTS, who is anyone to believe.....Those who still claim to the 6 million figure, or those who accept the revision and are accepting to further revision.

Please show me any and all scholarly opinions that promote the 6 million number as anything other than an early, rough estimate. Auschwitz was the largest single extermination facility, it was not the only place where the Holocaust took place.

if you would have read my post you would understand that EVEN WITHOUT THE GASSING THE NUMBERS ARE IN THE MILLIONS; the Einsatzgruppen, the Wehrmacht Massacres and forced labor alone run into the millions. It doesn't really matter if 4 or 1.5 million died in Auschwitz (although I am convinced that 1.5 million is more accurate than 4).

What you are doing is disingenious. You are taking a few early claims (notably none made by scholars under grants to research that question) and then comparing them to the researched numbers of the 90's when all archives were open. Of course the numbers change. 6 million was never a dogmatic number among historians. It is always labeled as an early rough estimate in scholarly literature.

Why don't we look at the other side of the issue? Early estimates of the Einsatzgruppen and Wehrmacht Massacres were either a) inexistent or b) way lower than what is agreed on today. Somewhere by the factor of 10 to 100.

What you have is basically a refinement of argument: Back in 1947 the impression was that the camps where the whole story. People noticed all the missing folks and just guessed that they were all gassed. Today we know it isn't so. The story is more complex. This doesn't change the fact that millions died.

For me, personally, it makes no difference if they were gassed, shot, or worked to death. The effect is the same. It is still a Holocaust.

You are absolutely right that the number of jews who were selected for gassing was - at least in the beginning - way too high. But that was just a first guess - it was natural to assume that the missing people were to be found as victims of the camps.
Turns out, aside from the gassing there were other parts to the story that were almost as deadly.

What you are criticizinh is simply that we have come to have a differentiated picture of the Holocaust.

Auschwitz was no the only death camp. The Holocaust is more than just gassing and camps.

6 million was never - and certainly isn't anymore - a dogmatic number that is considered to be the absolute truth among historians. It was a first rough estimate. Of course it was going to be refined once all of the archives were opened.
Where's the conspiracy in that?

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

6 million was never - and certainly isn't anymore - a dogmatic number that is considered to be the absolute truth among historians. It was a first rough estimate. Of course it was going to be refined once all of the archives were opened.

Try going to Canada, residing there and then publishing material questioning that 6 million figure.

Then you'll see 'a real big deal' get made about things.

Even try making a pamphlet saying it was 4 million and see what happens. You'll learn alot.


Edit:

Actually don't do that. I don't want anyone to get in trouble and be ruined because they are trying something they read on ATS.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

You are taking a few early claims

Those "early claims" Held true for 40 years, Until the soviets released evidence to show otherwise.

Now it may be in the future new evidence is revealed that could either lesson those numbers further, or indeed make that number Higher. Now because of my accepting position i could take what ever arrives......whereas others who refuse revision are "Stuffed".

Do you not see that ?