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Iran Holocaust-denying website angers Israe

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posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


I would refer you to your OP and referenced article.




posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by gem_man
But to question it at all will put you in prison in Europe.


That's simply not true.

It is the manner that you use in presenting your arguments that decides who falls under these laws and who not.

If you could make a serious, source-based argument that is open to peer-review and adheres to the scientific method and your conclusion is that neither the "official" way used for killing the jews (there wasn't 1 single way, but hey...) nor the "official" (there's no "official" count, but anyways) number is totally off you won't get indicted.

The laws are pretty clear. Blanket denial and the propagation of hate will get you indicted.... "Just asking questions" won't get you indicted.

Of course there will always be those people who understand "just asking questions" the way that GLenn Beck resp. Eric Cartman understands it. But "just asking questions" in the traditional sense never got anyone indicted under those laws.

But then again to know that you would actually have to look up the individual cases to come to that conclusion. And who's up for that? Just repeating unsourced claims about these "horrible" laws seems to do well too....


actually, that's not true. David Irving, admittedly NOT a holocaust denier, did not mention the holocaust in his WW 2 history books, because he saw no government evidence of it. For this reason alone, he was called a holocaust denier and charged in court for it.

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 7-8-2010 by filosophia]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
 


I would refer you to your OP and referenced article.


Do you know what you are talking about?

Tell us, what belief?

You can't imagine people believing in what?

Tell us so we can discuss it.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin
 




David John Cawdell Irving (born 24 March 1938) is an English writer specializing in the military history of World War II.[1] He is the author of 30 books on the subject, including The Destruction of Dresden (1963), Hitler's War (1977), Uprising! (1981), Churchill's War (1987), and Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich (1996).



And what do you mean by scholar?

That can be argued also.


I was expecting Irving to pop up in this thread. I guess he can be counted as a scholar. I would want to add the following things, though:

- Irving has not once published anything specific on the Holocaust that was based on his own research (The Leuchter Report, was published (by/through?) him but is not his original work. He has never submitted a paper or a complete study denying the historical accepted modes of killing or disputing the total numbers in the way I have described above.

- Irving's legal troubles come from his lectures. Lecturing is not considered to be an essential part of the scientific method but more like an after-dish. Usually, you discuss findings that you have previously published while giving a lecture. For this reason, indictments against what he said at his lectures can't count as "just asking questions" in the scholarly way I implied above.

To sum up: Irving was never indicted for "holocaust denial" because of the contents of any of his research. He was sued for specific parts in his books that hadn't that much to do with "holocaust denial" and that ruined his career as a historian.
After that, he took quite an extreme turn - mostly at his lectures - but in all this time he has not published any new research through the scientific process.

So I'd say Irving doesn't qualify under the terms I've laid out. He didn't just reasearch something, published it, and then got indicted because it didn't jive with the official story.

Then again - if you're referring to the Lippstadt trial then things look a bit different. But there he was sued by a private person for particular false statements in his books - it's no as if the state found out about his writings and then just indicted him under these laws.

What I am searching for is someone that has submitted a paper, a dissertation or any other kind of study, using original sources and his own resaerch that came to different conclusions and was then indicted for that. My contention still is that this has never happened.

To make it short: Irving's troubles don't really stem from original research or original publication of something on the Holocaust. The first wave of court cases against him were by people misrepresented in his books; then there was the Lippstatt trial, and then there was the indictment for what he said during his lectures.

Only the lecture part would qualify as "being indicted by the state for asking questions". I tried to make clear in this post why this part can't qualify under the conditions I stated since it was a lecture and no a publication.

If I believed to have concrete historical evidence of the "Holocaust being a Hoax" I'd enroll myself at a University at once and write my thesis about that. If your arguments are water-proof, no one will be able to touch you. I wonder why no one has done so in the ca. 70 years since then. You'd be an instant star.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 



Read your thread title oozyism.

Sigh. I didn't know my opinion meant so much to you.

My comment pertained to the topic of this thread.
It is my opinion.

I strongly believe the earth is not flat. My thoughts are that those who do, are foolish. To prove that to you, I would need to provide a link to my own brain, which I cannot do, and wouldn't if I could.

I strongly believe the Holocaust occurred in our world history. My thoughts are that those who do not believe this are foolish.

It is my opinion. The earth is round, the holocaust happened.
Plain and simple.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by filosophia


catalog.columbuslibrary.org...

only one book can be said to be neutral, the rest are pro-Israel.

So is there any wonder holocaust denial books have to be sold online? You can't find them in a public place.


Now that's not surprising. Would you be fair enough to provide a link to a "holohoax" website and count how many books are pro-Israel? And what would that prove?

My contention is that there is more money to be made by publishing " Holhoax " books than by publishing serious scholarship into the question. I can't imagine anyone denying that.
It's like with the alien question. For every serious investigation into the UFO question there are hundreds of nonsense-books about The Greys Of Aldebaran. Who do you think makes more money off such books? The scholars or the Fantasy writers?

Go to a scholarly archive like JStore and search for "Holocaust". How many books are there on that site that have a "buy here button"? 0.

Go to any "holohoax" website and count the seconds until you discover the "buy here button".
I think it is quite obvious who's making the money.

Of course there are exsceptions; there are scholarly sites that promote books and there are "holohoax" sites that don't. But as a general rule, there is more money to be made in writing wild claims without sources than there is to be made in being a scholar and playing the whole "publish or perish" game.
My professor recently told me that he got something like a 1.89 dollars for a whole year of sales of his recent book even though it's considered a bestseller among historians. Scholars get #ty book-deals. People like Zundel or Irving do seem to make a living off of their published stuff. That's all I'm saying.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by filosophia


catalog.columbuslibrary.org...

only one book can be said to be neutral, the rest are pro-Israel.

So is there any wonder holocaust denial books have to be sold online? You can't find them in a public place.


Now that's not surprising. Would you be fair enough to provide a link to a "holohoax" website and count how many books are pro-Israel? And what would that prove?

My contention is that there is more money to be made by publishing " Holhoax " books than by publishing serious scholarship into the question. I can't imagine anyone denying that.
It's like with the alien question. For every serious investigation into the UFO question there are hundreds of nonsense-books about The Greys Of Aldebaran. Who do you think makes more money off such books? The scholars or the Fantasy writers?

Go to a scholarly archive like JStore and search for "Holocaust". How many books are there on that site that have a "buy here button"? 0.

Go to any "holohoax" website and count the seconds until you discover the "buy here button".
I think it is quite obvious who's making the money.

Of course there are exsceptions; there are scholarly sites that promote books and there are "holohoax" sites that don't. But as a general rule, there is more money to be made in writing wild claims without sources than there is to be made in being a scholar and playing the whole "publish or perish" game.
My professor recently told me that he got something like a 1.89 dollars for a whole year of sales of his recent book even though it's considered a bestseller among historians. Scholars get #ty book-deals. People like Zundel or Irving do seem to make a living off of their published stuff. That's all I'm saying.



you are denying the evidence that has been placed before you. You claim there is a lot of money in holocaust denying, even though I showed you that holocaust denial books do not exist in the public domain, a public library does not have one book on holocaust denial. Of course a holocaust denial website would not sell their opponents books on their own website, I guess if they wanted to be non-biased they would, but usually they do talk about pro-Israel books, so they expose the reader to them either way. If it is so profitable, why aren't more people doing it? Give me a list of holocaust denier authors, and David Irving doesn't count unless you can find a book that actually talks about holocaust denial that he has written.

David Icke, Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin, none of them talk about the holocaust. So please tell me the name of the famously wealthy holocaust denier, he must have slipped my memory.

Here's a link for you:

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com...

Not one link on here says "Buy here"

The information is given FOR FREE.

Now, you have to ask yourself, honestly, if holohoaxing is so profitable, why would anyone want to give it away for free???

[edit on 7-8-2010 by filosophia]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:37 AM
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Holocaust denial is a name assigned by Jews/Israel to anyone who even questions any of all of the facts about WWII and all the atrocities committed during this war. If you do this, you are all of a sudden a holocaust denier. Drama, anyone?

Virtually no one on this freaking planet DENIES it happened. That millions of Jews died. They question the numbers and they question the circumstances and they questions the complete impact and story, whether Jews were somehow and especially SO totally singled out or the only the ones selected.

And NO it wasn't just Russians. It was millions upon millions of people of ALL nationalities and religions and beliefs and races. This may or may not be totally accurate, but look at the chart here to get the start of an idea of how wide-ranging it was.

All non-Aryan races were targeted, Arabs, blacks, Slaves, Romanies, as were homosexuals, Romanies, the handicapped, the religious of other faiths, particularly the Orthodox Christians, and anyone with a political ideology or religion that didn't fit the he Aryan Christian Nationalist profile died...you name it. And here we probably had MUSLIMS too, but their numbers are hard to count too, and maybe some of them want to discuss it to get to the truth too.

And also take warning from this when you allow your leaders and governments to divide you and get you fighting among each other based on idiotic imaginary lines, as is intentionally being done today at both national and global levels.

Sure they rounded up Jews, but they also rounded up entire towns and villages, of which Jews happened to be a part of. More Christians died than Jews. Far, far more. The Jews plucked their numbers out of millions upon other millions, and there's plenty of debate today over the numbers, and always has been in some academic and intelligentsia circles, attempted silencing or not, and even among some Jews themselves.

I think the Jewish.Israeli spin on the entire war really has been detrimental to both open dialog, perspective, and history. They did after all, have to justify Israel. And they have dealt the memories of ALL the other people killed a slap and a disservice in history too. And they and their lobbies and propaganda machines STILL attempt to control the dialog, screaming, "holocaust denier" at anyone who even brings this subject up.

I lost family during this atrocity. None of them Jews, homosexuals, or gypsies. Just plain old people. Both my grandmothers, my mother and father, my aunt and my uncle were in both the work camps and the death camps. That horror was real to a degree and for a fact. But were the camps JUST for Jews. No. My family lost two farms, one with a ruby mine "to the state." Stalin herded millions of people in many countries toward Germany like cattle, and the ones who survived went to the camps.

Yeah, so the Jewish/Israeli PR department was smart. They took their numbers, added them up and broadcast a story, their version of history, far and wide, to the point where many people in the world for generation probably think that WWII in Europe was ALL about the Jews, that they were the only ones targeted and affected. False.

They tried to smear Ahmadinejad for being a "holocaust denier" too when the fact is he acknowledges the deaths of millions of Jews and simply wanted dialog to put "the holocaust" into true historical perspective. Translation I'm sure is an issue here. The exact phrasing and wording of terms used against people. And even if someone pulls out the word HOAX please know that no one DENIES it. They just have questions...and technically, in some languages, not telling a story with the entire truth is a hoax.

And yes, the are Jews in Iran, and they're very HAPPY there. Some time ago Israel offered them money to leave, and they said, no thanks.

Here's the machine still at work right now, today: Iranian website publishes cartoons showing 'Jews inventing the myth of the Holocaust' (Link).

Because, you see, Israel wants Iran GONE. Just another excuse like their imaginary nuclear weapons they MAY have sometime in the future.

Yeah...they shout "holocaust denier" or anti-Semite and everyone is just supposed to shut up, accept THEIR facts, and stop talking about it. Right. Ask yourself what they're so SCARED of that they don't even want to allow discussion, going so far as to even pressure countries to make LAWS about it.

The whole thing makes me sick. The lies, the manipulation, the attempt to tell history the way it happened and the way it's still being used to prey on people's minds and emotions.

I wrote this fast to get some thoughts out there. Just ask if something didn't make any sense. And all of this doesn't even BEGIN to touch some of the conspiracy issues...the reasons and the maneuverings by TPTB. I'm sure others will touch on these.

[edit on 8/7/2010 by ~Lucidity]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by filosophia


you are denying the evidence that has been placed before you. You claim there is a lot of money in holocaust denying, even though I showed you that holocaust denial books do not exist in the public domain, a public library does not have one book on holocaust denial.


As I said, scholars have bad book deals. You don't get rich by having your books placed in public libraries - there's commissions and most of the money stays with the publishers.

If, on the other hand, you publish your books by your own and sell them directly there is money to be made, if the people are interested in what you write. Look at the total number of direct-marketed Holocaust-denying books and then compare them to the number of direct-marketed holocaust scholarship. It's pretty clear there is a market for the former and not the latter. Again, writing under a grant or while working at a university does not provide a living. Direct-marketing books on websties can though.



Of course a holocaust denial website would not sell their opponents books on their own website, I guess if they wanted to be non-biased they would, but usually they do talk about pro-Israel books, so they expose the reader to them either way.


Since vice versa that is true about books about Holocaust denying, by your logic there's plenty of material on Holocaust denying in public libraries (since holcaust denial scholarship books quote holocaust deniers). So what are you whining about? By your standards then, everything is fair and game.



If it is so profitable, why aren't more people doing it?



How many people make a living by selling books that say the Holocaust happened? I don't know of one.

How many people make a living by selling books that say the Holocaust didn't happen?
I know of some. Surely Zundel seems to have no financial problems (maybe on paper - but go to see him speak. It seems he gets along well).

Another example: A Prof. @ my universtiy was asked to speak about the material basis of sources on the Holocaust. He gave a 3 hour lecture for free, being provided travel.

The last guy that came to this country and was indicted under the Holocaust-Denier laws was paid several thousand dollars for the speech that got him indicted.




Give me a list of holocaust denier authors, and David Irving doesn't count unless you can find a book that actually talks about holocaust denial that he has written.



I could spend the afternoon googling. But as I said, Zundel, "Van Helsing" and others come to mind. I don't claim they're rich, I just say that they seem to be able to survive by doing nothing other than taking fees for speeches and living off the revenues of direct-marketing their books.




David Icke, Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin, none of them talk about the holocaust. So please tell me the name of the famously wealthy holocaust denier, he must have slipped my memory.


None of them are scholars. None of them seem especially interested in the history of the second world war.

If you consider these people to be legitimate "researchers" then I guess you'd have to ask yourself why they don't believe in the "holohoax conspiracy" - collectively they seem to believe every conspiracy theory except this one.

For me these names are just examples of what I was trying to say. Publishing wild, inaccurate and unsourced claims can make a pretty good living.




Here's a link for you:



See my previous post. I did not claim that there is no single "Holohoax" site that doesn't promote books.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by NichirasuKenshin
 




If I believed to have concrete historical evidence of the "Holocaust being a Hoax" I'd enroll myself at a University at once and write my thesis about that. If your arguments are water-proof, no one will be able to touch you. I wonder why no one has done so in the ca. 70 years since then. You'd be an instant star.


That is where your understanding is fuzzy. You won't be an instant star, you will be an instant loser.

I have made my point that even scholars and historians are locked up, defamed as anti-Semites for questioning the original story.

It is still research when you look at other people's work and compare and contrast and see contradictions etc etc. That is a scholarly work.

Exposing contradiction is the work of a scholar, and that is what he did in regards to the Holocaust, by examining testimonies, books, statistics etc etc.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 




I strongly believe the Holocaust occurred in our world history. My thoughts are that those who do not believe this are foolish.

It is my opinion. The earth is round, the holocaust happened.
Plain and simple.


WOW what an argument.

I'm speechless.

In that sense: "?In my opinion, the earth is round, and you are a man."
Plain and simple, a hairy man, because the earth is round.




posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Oh my goodness. The thread title says some Israel's are angry over the web site. I said I don't blame them.

What's to make such a big deal about oozy?



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:13 AM
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"Six million men and women are dying ... eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, ... but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..."

The American Hebrew (New York, issue 582 of October 31, 1919)



This was the first holocaust, before the WWII holocaust. This was in 1919.

Funny history we got there, same exact number same exact hate.

And here is a survivor:



"Legends of our Time": »

"What are you writing?" the Rebbe asked. "Stories," I said. He wanted to know what kind of stories: true stories. "About people you knew?" Yes, about things that happened or could have happened. "But they did not?" No, not all of them did. In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the end. The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more sorrow than anger: "That means you are writing lies!" I did not answer immediately. The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defence. Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are - although they never occurred."«


Evidently..
[Elie Wiesel, Legends of Our Time, Schocken Books, New York 1982, S. VIII] Wiesel called his holocaust-writing, cynically, "Legends".



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
 


Oh my goodness. The thread title says some Israel's are angry over the web site. I said I don't blame them.

What's to make such a big deal about oozy?



The deal is you're wrong and evil and a man, a hairy man, with hairs behind rising behind your back ready to strike any intruders.

*evil laugh*

Yeah, I just don't agree with you



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


You know, I clicked on this thread because you were the author, and consequently I thought there might be less trolling than usual, on this kind of topic.

Lesson learned.


eta: I am unsubscribing now. Got to go shave my back.


[edit on 8/7/2010 by ladyinwaiting]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by ~Lucidity


No. Pay attention.



Not a very good start. Patronizing, are we?





Holocaust denial is a name assigned by Jews/Israel to anyone who even questions any of all of the facts about WWII and all the atrocities committed during this war. If you do this, you are all of a sudden a holocaust denier. Drama, anyone?



I'm not a jew/israelite and I myself use the term. I do not make a quick call back to "jew central" and then ask if I may use the label. " Holocaust Denial " is a term used by Historians to denote a certain kind of publication that disguises itself as research.
So that's refuted: Neither I nor any of the people I know consult with "the jews" or "Israel" when using this label. It is a descriptive label that is used to designate a certain type of claims made about the Holocaust. Inherently this has nothing to do with being jewish or Israel, albeit there are jews and Israelis that apply the label, too. But they have not got a copyright on it nor do they have the right of holding the defition - and they don't. Not for me nore any other historian I know of.




Virtually no one on this freaking planet DENIES it happened. That millions of Jews died. They question the numbers and they question the circumstances and they questions the complete impact and story, whether Jews were somehow and especially SO totally singled out or the only the ones selected.



And I know of no one who claims jews were the only ones that were persecuted. I do know some people though that believe that none of it happened. There's plenty of people that deny that there were significant death rates at the camps or that there were no "real" camps at all.

As I said. If you have compelling evidence of the Holocaust being carried out in a total different way or with just some few thousands of victims then for god's sake write a paper, mention your sources in the footnotes and enroll yourself at a university. Your career is made. One thing is clear though: You won't be prosecuted for presenting that kind of a paper.




And NO it wasn't just Russians. It was millions upon millions of people of ALL nationalities and religions and beliefs and races. This may or may not be totally accurate, but look at the chart here to get the start of an idea of how wide-ranging it was.



How is this anything but common knowledge? Every History book I possess that deals with this period mentions this and delves into the subject. On ATS people often like to pretend that modern scholars deny that many other people were prosecuted and killed by the Nazis. But it is modern scholarship who made the populace aware of that fact. It was never a secret to anyone even basically familiar with the Nazis.




All non-Aryan races were targeted, Arabs, blacks, Slaves, Romanies, as were homosexuals, Romanies, the handicapped, the religious of other faiths, particularly the Orthodox Christians, and anyone with a political ideology or religion that didn't fit the he Aryan Christian Nationalist profile died...you name it. And here we probably had MUSLIMS too, but their numbers are hard to count too, and maybe some of them want to discuss it to get to the truth too.



Common knowledge. What does that prove? To me it only further goes to show that they were really out for a kill.
What you forget is the jews were the only ones in that group to be systematically identified and removed collectively. Maybe that applies to some polish groups too. But there was never an effort to systematically identify and deport all Homosexuals, Blacks etc. Of course many were brought to the attention of the Nazis and then killed - but there was no widespread use of Dehomag-Machinery to identify other groups than the jews.




Sure they rounded up Jews, but they also rounded up entire towns and villages, of which Jews happened to be a part of.


Care to cite any example of a town where everyone was deported or shot by the Einsatzgruppen or rounded up for the SS?

I think you're confusing things here. Of course there were "actions" against whole towns in the context of the war (anti-partisan, anti-communist actions etc.). But there was no other group that was systematically identified and then deported.




More Christians died than Jews.



So... Have you got an estimate for how many Christians were killed by the Nazis simply for having christian parents? Please provide me with a list.

Most jews that were deported to the camps were there for the sole reason that they had jewish forebears. Most christians went to the camps for activism against the Nazis. That's quite a difference. Or do you know of any mass-action of identifying and deporting people solely on the fact that their fathers were christians? Please do.




Far, far more. The Jews plucked their numbers out of millions upon other millions, and there's plenty of debate today over the numbers, and always has been in some academic and intelligentsia circles, attempted silencing or not, and even among some Jews themselves.



You're confusing the scholarly position with propaganda by extreme Zionists. Of course there were hard-core Zionists that instrumetalized the Holocaust. As there is with any other mass-tragedy. They don't really have the means to "silence" the scholarship - the agreed numbers by scholars have had a falling tendency ever since the first numbers were published. Just because one over-zealous Zionist screamed "8 million" in 1948 doesn't mean that the "jews" simply "made something up".



Far, far more. The Jews plucked their numbers out of millions upon other millions, and there's plenty of debate today over the numbers, and always has been in some academic and intelligentsia circles, attempted silencing or not, and even among some Jews themselves.


I don't know what you mean. The numbers accepted by scholars have been coming down since decades. How is there any suppression in that? Obviously the "jews" didn't manage to hide the "truth". Sources don't lie, most of the times.

You are actually proving my point. My satement in this thread started with " there is plenty of debate on numbers and not one scholar has been indicted for simply debating the numbers in a coherent way".... If the "jews" were in control and keeping the lid on things, why is there a debate? You seem to contradict itself. This thread says the debate is suppressed. Your post says there is a debate. Doesn't add up, somehow.




I think the Jewish.Israeli spin on the entire war really has been detrimental to both open dialog, perspective, and history. They did after all, have to justify Israel.


I wouldn't deny that some hard-core zionists did this and are still doing this. In the Academic field, this play absolutely no role though. Israel has no monopoly on historic truth. There is a healthy debate in Academia about numbers and the exact nature of the holocaust. Nobody ever gets indicted. No "jews" ever knock on our doors and tell us "not to go there".....

Anyways. I think you take my position to be more extreme than it is. All I'm saying is there is a healthy, controversial debate going on - I can see no signs of "suppression" of debate. This all pertains to academia (as my first post did) and not to the laymans debate in the media. There, I guess, many or at least some of your points are more than valid.

But I can't help to be creeped out about the frequent use of "the jews" ... There's no such thing. While many things you say have some truth to them it always pertains to certain people - certainly not the jewish commmunity or Israel as a whole.

very long post. sorry bout that.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by NichirasuKenshin
 

I changed it as it was referring to only one point about the actual term holocaust denial

In point of fact, I changed my entire response to NOT be to you.

Sorry for any confusion.

As to the rest, it's a PERCEPTION thing.

My perception and opinion is that the amount of time dedicated to the Holocaust portion of the WWII story in the European theater is out of proportion and that some facts were skewed into the overall human consciousness. And someone is still attempting to control peoples' thoughts about it. That is not right.

I don't really have a lot more to say.

[edit on 8/7/2010 by ~Lucidity]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
 


You know, I clicked on this thread because you were the author, and consequently I thought there might be less trolling than usual, on this kind of topic.

Lesson learned.


eta: I am unsubscribing now. Got to go shave my back.


[edit on 8/7/2010 by ladyinwaiting]


Ouch sorry just trying to spice up my own opinions.



Had a bad friday night thats all ..



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism

"Six million men and women are dying ... eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, ... but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..."

The American Hebrew (New York, issue 582 of October 31, 1919)



That's a nice quote. Many people are aware that a certain group of Zionists created a "6 million starving" campaign in order to boost the creation of a homestate.

Do you notice the difference? In the 1920's, some Zionists claimed that 6 million were on the verge of starving - since it wasn't true but for a much smaler number (a few 10'000s, in the last publication I read) the world didn't really care and didn't really respond. The whole story didn't get that much traction - allthough Zionist organizations did collect tons of donations and bolstered their influence that way.

In the 1940's, some Zionists and many others claimed that millions of jews were killed by the Nazis ( Note the difference between being on the verge of starvation and being killed in camps). The more rational of those claims proved to be true. This time, since the story was real (allthough the numbers were fishy, just like in the 20's) in essence, the world didn't look away.

I'm always astonished when I read the 20's campaings as some kind of evidence of anything. What does it prove, exactly? That interest-groups don't really care about facts when it comes to promoting their own agenda? Wow, great revelation. Historically quite common, though.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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Wikipedia everyone question holocaust is categorized under holocaust denial and then further called anti-Semite:



Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[7] For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic[8] conspiracy theory.[9]





Legitimate historical revisionism is the re-examination of accepted history, updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, or less-biased information. It is an academic approach that holds that a given part of history, as it has been traditionally told, may not be entirely accurate and should be reviewed and revised. Historical revisionism in this sense is an accepted part of the scholarly discipline of history. It is applied to the study of the Holocaust as new facts emerge to change the historical understanding of it:


Some claims:



The Nazis had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews.
Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews.
The figure of 5 to 6 million Jewish deaths is a gross exaggeration, and the actual number is an order of magnitude lower.
Other claims include the following:

Stories of the Holocaust were a myth initially created by the Allies of World War II to demonize Germans.[3]

Jews spread this myth as part of a grander plot intended to enable the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and now to garner continuing support for the state of Israel.[13]

Documentary evidence of the Holocaust, from photographs to the Diary of Anne Frank, is fabricated.[3]

Survivor testimonies are filled with errors and inconsistencies, and are thus unreliable.[3]

Interrogators obtained Nazi prisoners' confessions of war crimes through the use of torture.[3]

The Nazi treatment of Jews was no different from what the Allies did to their enemies in World War II.[14]




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