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Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Originally posted by gem_man
But to question it at all will put you in prison in Europe.
That's simply not true.
It is the manner that you use in presenting your arguments that decides who falls under these laws and who not.
If you could make a serious, source-based argument that is open to peer-review and adheres to the scientific method and your conclusion is that neither the "official" way used for killing the jews (there wasn't 1 single way, but hey...) nor the "official" (there's no "official" count, but anyways) number is totally off you won't get indicted.
The laws are pretty clear. Blanket denial and the propagation of hate will get you indicted.... "Just asking questions" won't get you indicted.
Of course there will always be those people who understand "just asking questions" the way that GLenn Beck resp. Eric Cartman understands it. But "just asking questions" in the traditional sense never got anyone indicted under those laws.
But then again to know that you would actually have to look up the individual cases to come to that conclusion. And who's up for that? Just repeating unsourced claims about these "horrible" laws seems to do well too....
Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
I would refer you to your OP and referenced article.
Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin
David John Cawdell Irving (born 24 March 1938) is an English writer specializing in the military history of World War II.[1] He is the author of 30 books on the subject, including The Destruction of Dresden (1963), Hitler's War (1977), Uprising! (1981), Churchill's War (1987), and Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich (1996).
And what do you mean by scholar?
That can be argued also.
Originally posted by filosophia
catalog.columbuslibrary.org...
only one book can be said to be neutral, the rest are pro-Israel.
So is there any wonder holocaust denial books have to be sold online? You can't find them in a public place.
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Originally posted by filosophia
catalog.columbuslibrary.org...
only one book can be said to be neutral, the rest are pro-Israel.
So is there any wonder holocaust denial books have to be sold online? You can't find them in a public place.
Now that's not surprising. Would you be fair enough to provide a link to a "holohoax" website and count how many books are pro-Israel? And what would that prove?
My contention is that there is more money to be made by publishing " Holhoax " books than by publishing serious scholarship into the question. I can't imagine anyone denying that.
It's like with the alien question. For every serious investigation into the UFO question there are hundreds of nonsense-books about The Greys Of Aldebaran. Who do you think makes more money off such books? The scholars or the Fantasy writers?
Go to a scholarly archive like JStore and search for "Holocaust". How many books are there on that site that have a "buy here button"? 0.
Go to any "holohoax" website and count the seconds until you discover the "buy here button".
I think it is quite obvious who's making the money.
Of course there are exsceptions; there are scholarly sites that promote books and there are "holohoax" sites that don't. But as a general rule, there is more money to be made in writing wild claims without sources than there is to be made in being a scholar and playing the whole "publish or perish" game.
My professor recently told me that he got something like a 1.89 dollars for a whole year of sales of his recent book even though it's considered a bestseller among historians. Scholars get #ty book-deals. People like Zundel or Irving do seem to make a living off of their published stuff. That's all I'm saying.
Originally posted by filosophia
you are denying the evidence that has been placed before you. You claim there is a lot of money in holocaust denying, even though I showed you that holocaust denial books do not exist in the public domain, a public library does not have one book on holocaust denial.
Of course a holocaust denial website would not sell their opponents books on their own website, I guess if they wanted to be non-biased they would, but usually they do talk about pro-Israel books, so they expose the reader to them either way.
If it is so profitable, why aren't more people doing it?
Give me a list of holocaust denier authors, and David Irving doesn't count unless you can find a book that actually talks about holocaust denial that he has written.
David Icke, Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin, none of them talk about the holocaust. So please tell me the name of the famously wealthy holocaust denier, he must have slipped my memory.
Here's a link for you:
If I believed to have concrete historical evidence of the "Holocaust being a Hoax" I'd enroll myself at a University at once and write my thesis about that. If your arguments are water-proof, no one will be able to touch you. I wonder why no one has done so in the ca. 70 years since then. You'd be an instant star.
I strongly believe the Holocaust occurred in our world history. My thoughts are that those who do not believe this are foolish.
It is my opinion. The earth is round, the holocaust happened.
Plain and simple.
"Six million men and women are dying ... eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, ... but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..."
The American Hebrew (New York, issue 582 of October 31, 1919)
"Legends of our Time": »
"What are you writing?" the Rebbe asked. "Stories," I said. He wanted to know what kind of stories: true stories. "About people you knew?" Yes, about things that happened or could have happened. "But they did not?" No, not all of them did. In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the end. The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more sorrow than anger: "That means you are writing lies!" I did not answer immediately. The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defence. Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are - although they never occurred."«
Evidently..
[Elie Wiesel, Legends of Our Time, Schocken Books, New York 1982, S. VIII] Wiesel called his holocaust-writing, cynically, "Legends".
Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
Oh my goodness. The thread title says some Israel's are angry over the web site. I said I don't blame them.
What's to make such a big deal about oozy?
Originally posted by ~Lucidity
No. Pay attention.
Holocaust denial is a name assigned by Jews/Israel to anyone who even questions any of all of the facts about WWII and all the atrocities committed during this war. If you do this, you are all of a sudden a holocaust denier. Drama, anyone?
Virtually no one on this freaking planet DENIES it happened. That millions of Jews died. They question the numbers and they question the circumstances and they questions the complete impact and story, whether Jews were somehow and especially SO totally singled out or the only the ones selected.
And NO it wasn't just Russians. It was millions upon millions of people of ALL nationalities and religions and beliefs and races. This may or may not be totally accurate, but look at the chart here to get the start of an idea of how wide-ranging it was.
All non-Aryan races were targeted, Arabs, blacks, Slaves, Romanies, as were homosexuals, Romanies, the handicapped, the religious of other faiths, particularly the Orthodox Christians, and anyone with a political ideology or religion that didn't fit the he Aryan Christian Nationalist profile died...you name it. And here we probably had MUSLIMS too, but their numbers are hard to count too, and maybe some of them want to discuss it to get to the truth too.
Sure they rounded up Jews, but they also rounded up entire towns and villages, of which Jews happened to be a part of.
More Christians died than Jews.
Far, far more. The Jews plucked their numbers out of millions upon other millions, and there's plenty of debate today over the numbers, and always has been in some academic and intelligentsia circles, attempted silencing or not, and even among some Jews themselves.
Far, far more. The Jews plucked their numbers out of millions upon other millions, and there's plenty of debate today over the numbers, and always has been in some academic and intelligentsia circles, attempted silencing or not, and even among some Jews themselves.
I think the Jewish.Israeli spin on the entire war really has been detrimental to both open dialog, perspective, and history. They did after all, have to justify Israel.
Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by oozyism
You know, I clicked on this thread because you were the author, and consequently I thought there might be less trolling than usual, on this kind of topic.
Lesson learned.
eta: I am unsubscribing now. Got to go shave my back.
[edit on 8/7/2010 by ladyinwaiting]
Originally posted by oozyism
"Six million men and women are dying ... eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, ... but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..."
The American Hebrew (New York, issue 582 of October 31, 1919)
Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[7] For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic[8] conspiracy theory.[9]
Legitimate historical revisionism is the re-examination of accepted history, updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, or less-biased information. It is an academic approach that holds that a given part of history, as it has been traditionally told, may not be entirely accurate and should be reviewed and revised. Historical revisionism in this sense is an accepted part of the scholarly discipline of history. It is applied to the study of the Holocaust as new facts emerge to change the historical understanding of it:
The Nazis had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews.
Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews.
The figure of 5 to 6 million Jewish deaths is a gross exaggeration, and the actual number is an order of magnitude lower.
Other claims include the following:
Stories of the Holocaust were a myth initially created by the Allies of World War II to demonize Germans.[3]
Jews spread this myth as part of a grander plot intended to enable the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and now to garner continuing support for the state of Israel.[13]
Documentary evidence of the Holocaust, from photographs to the Diary of Anne Frank, is fabricated.[3]
Survivor testimonies are filled with errors and inconsistencies, and are thus unreliable.[3]
Interrogators obtained Nazi prisoners' confessions of war crimes through the use of torture.[3]
The Nazi treatment of Jews was no different from what the Allies did to their enemies in World War II.[14]