New law on police to be discussed nationwide on the web – Medvedev

reply to post by warequalsmurder


Please read your links more thoroughly, Warismurder. The "partisan groups" you are talking about are groups of youths vandalizing police/government buildings. They aren't partisans, they aren't revolutionaries, they aren't armed, organized militias.

To suggest that youth gangs are somehow "partisan groups" is a flat-out lie, and you know it. The only organized militia group is out east, and is the only group mentioned in all but one of your links.

As for the "Red Towns" usage, you keep going back to this defense that it's "used within the mafia", so of course I wouldn't find it online. But then, you talk about your friends telling you, and that so many towns are called "red towns". Please stop being such a willfully ignorant troll and just admit you were wrong. If the phrase were so common that your friends were telling you about it, it would have worked it's way into Russian political blogs and newspapers.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
reply to post by warequalsmurder

 

Please read your links more thoroughly, Warismurder. The "partisan groups" you are talking about are groups of youths vandalizing police/government buildings. They aren't partisans, they aren't revolutionaries, they aren't armed, organized militias.

The problem is that you're not reading those links thoroughly enough which keeps making that hole that you've dug for yourself deeper.

In the cases of Orel and Astrakhan it was reported that they did indeed appear to be organized.
Also on 7/20/10 (provided in my link), in Orel they used bottles filled with explosive fluids (Molotov Cocktails to some.) thrown through the windows of the police station, which takes premeditation (to concoct the explosives) and planning (to attack when the best chances of success can be gained against armed opponents i.e. police) in order to obtain an objective. This is organization my dear.

Near Perm in 6/12/10(provided in my link), 5 armed assailents with hooded masks shot/killed a police officer and wounded 2 other officers at a police station. They shot their police car and burned it so that nobody could follow them. They entered the police station and stole automatic weapons after neutralizing all defenders. Then they escaped with a car into the forests.

Doesn't sound like little kiddies to me!
They wore costumes (premeditation)
They attacked a police station. (premeditation and planning)
They destroyed the police car. (further organizational skills)
They killed and wounded all police present at the station. (cold calculated execution of a plan)

You're busted.

In any event I did tell the Readers that she would attempt to move the goal posts.
And she has not let you or me down now has she?

So, you claim that they all are disorganized now, yet I've got the evidence to prove that they are fighting the police with methods that take planning and organization (i.e. constructing bombs, attacking police stations). They are even being reported as being organized at that! Where is your evidence that these very partisans are disorganized?

Please provide this evidence.

People are fighting the police in Russia all over the place now regardless of your attempted whitewashing at this juncture of the debate.

Face it VneZonyDostupa, you're busted.

Any way you try and squirm, my words of people fighting the police were true and you screwed up. You even went so far as to try and claim that there was only one instance of armed organized conflict against the police that I cited.... Wrong, your exposed honey.

VneZonyDostupa

As for the "Red Towns" usage, you keep going back to this defense that it's "used within the mafia", so of course I wouldn't find it online. But then, you talk about your friends telling you, and that so many towns are called "red towns". Please stop being such a willfully ignorant troll and just admit you were wrong. If the phrase were so common that your friends were telling you about it, it would have worked it's way into Russian political blogs and newspapers.

Now your only defense is to move the goal posts and try and sling the same mud back that was clearly branded upon your lying little fingers.

There are many members here who have stopped debating you for the very reasons as I have just cited that you attempt to employ in every debate that you get yourself painted into a corner with. Just as you've done to yourself in this one.

Now that your caught in the trap I'm just going to keep exposing you, so go on and keep twisting as this get's more entertaining with each one of your backpeddling/goal post moving attempts.

Originally posted by warequalsmurder
In the cases of Orel and Astrakhan it was reported that they did indeed appear to be organized.
Also on 7/20/10 (provided in my link), in Orel they used bottles filled with explosive fluids (Molotov Cocktails to some.) thrown through the windows of the police station, which takes premeditation (to concoct the explosives) and planning (to attack when the best chances of success can be gained against armed opponents i.e. police) in order to obtain an objective. This is organization my dear.

It doesn't take much organization to make a molotov cocktail. A bottle, an accelerant, and a rag. That's it. It's a relatively common gang weapon in Russia, especially among youths. You see attacks on police in America, too, mostly from the same sorts of people: youth gangs. Are the Oakland and Detroit gangs "partisan groups" to you, simply because they attack police?

Near Perm in 6/12/10(provided in my link), 5 armed assailents with hooded masks shot/killed a police officer and wounded 2 other officers at a police station. They shot their police car and burned it so that nobody could follow them. They entered the police station and stole automatic weapons after neutralizing all defenders. Then they escaped with a car into the forests.

Again, youth gangs. Police are attack in America everyday by street gangs. This doesn't make them partisan groups, it makes them thugs.

Doesn't sound like little kiddies to me!
They wore costumes (premeditation)
They attacked a police station. (premeditation and planning)
They destroyed the police car. (further organizational skills)
They killed and wounded all police present at the station. (cold calculated execution of a plan)

Once again, these are all things street/youth gangs do in America. Are they partisan groups, based on your criteria?

In any event I did tell the Readers that she would attempt to move the goal posts.
And she has not let you or me down now has she?

Please show me where I "moved a goal post". All I've done is point out that you are misinterpreting and article, likely based on your own faulty translation (or by using a web translation service, which doesn't show the nuances of language very well).

So, you claim that they all are disorganized now, yet I've got the evidence to prove that they are fighting the police with methods that take planning and organization (i.e. constructing bombs, attacking police stations). They are even being reported as being organized at that! Where is your evidence that these very partisans are disorganized?

I never said they were disorganized. I said they weren't organized militias, which would imply some sort of political message. They are gangs of thugs who are attacking police, much like gangs of thugs in America attack police. Again, do you consider the Bloods, Crips, MS-13, or Latin Kings to be "partisan groups", or are they gangs?

People are fighting the police in Russia all over the place now regardless of your attempted whitewashing at this juncture of the debate.

Using your same logic, the same is happening in America. Do you agree or disagree with that? I would bet about the same number of police die in Russia each year as in America.

Any way you try and squirm, my words of people fighting the police were true and you screwed up. You even went so far as to try and claim that there was only one instance of armed organized conflict against the police that I cited....

Please reread my post. I pointed out that only one instance of an armed MILITIA was shown in your articles. The rest were street gangs.

your exposed honey.

Reported for sexism. I've lost count of how many times you've called me "dear" and "honey". It's degrading and unnecessary.

Now your only defense is to move the goal posts and try and sling the same mud back that was clearly branded upon your lying little fingers.

Please point out my lie.

YOU said your friends told you about this phrase. YOU said "many towns" were called this. And yet YOU have been unable to show any use of the word in any media.

Part 1

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

It doesn't take much organization to make a molotov cocktail. A bottle, an accelerant, and a rag. That's it. It's a relatively common gang weapon in Russia, especially among youths. You see attacks on police in America, too, mostly from the same sorts of people: youth gangs. Are the Oakland and Detroit gangs "partisan groups" to you, simply because they attack police?

First off it was called a chemical concoction. I used the word Molotov Cocktail to help for visualizations. Mixing chemicals requires more knowledge then just pouring gasoline into a bottle. You can not change the fact that they had to construct this weapon and that they had to choose their timing, so no matter how you try and water down the issue they behaved like Partisans and.... Your busted.

VneZonyDostupa
Again, youth gangs. Police are attack in America everyday by street gangs. This doesn't make them partisan groups, it makes them thugs.

Let me finish my giggling first...
Ok, Police stations are never attacked in the USA by hooded gangs that shoot their way into that police station, kill/wound all officers present, confiscate all availible weapons for future attacks, and burn the property of that station on their way to vanish in the woods without releasing any convicts from the assault. More importantly for my argument, there was no release of convicts so the jailbreak excuse can't even be used (should it come to mind) here which tells the honest observer that the sole intent was to take out that station which they did..

This takes premeditation, constructing of a plan for assault and retreat afterwards, the execution of a plan, and the will/determination to fatally wound all opponents confronted, a plan for the acquisition of more firearms. This was a police station that was overwhelmed sucessfully!

There has never been a street gang that has done this in the USA. When a gang of armed people do carry out such a well thought out and sucsessfull plan they will at once be rightly labeled PARTISANS because of there organizational skills and determination to carry out that action.

Your busted..

VneZonyDostupa
Once again, these are all things street/youth gangs do in America. Are they partisan groups, based on your criteria?

You might be right if it were done in a crime of passion in the heat of the moment when cops are attacked. But these crimes needed the manufacturing of plans, the gathering of resources, and the will to carry them out. This is exactly how PARTISANS behave, not pissed off punk kids who can't even see past their next bottle of beer or fist fight. This is why Partisan activity is such a serious matter and would prompt legislation to quell this activity which is what I've been saying all along.

When a gang of armed people do carry out such a well thought out and successfull plan against the authorities they will at once be rightly labeled PARTISANS.

VneZonyDostupa
Please show me where I "moved a goal post". All I've done is point out that you are misinterpreting and article, likely based on your own faulty translation (or by using a web translation service, which doesn't show the nuances of language very well).

You just assumed that I don't know Russian. I suppose only you do right? But with your continued stumbling in this debate due to your inability to read my links and the evidence they show I'm beginning to think that it is your Russian that has become rusty lately.

And as to misreprsentations of articles, I will allow the reader to weigh the evidence on which of us two debaters are doing just that.

Now let's address this moving of the goal posts issues that you so coyly try to protest innocence of.

On top of page 2 of this debate that you claimed this:
"If you had taken the time to actually read your links, you would see that they are all talking about the same event, the same group, and the same small region."
When I clearly presented to the reader that my links covered a wide range of locations where people were attacking the police.
But then you tried to shift your oversight to the fact that these are just angry street kids and shouldn't be counted which is why I'm tearing that lame ass'd goal post movement attempt apart as we speak.

You are as busted then as you are now.

Part 2

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

I never said they were disorganized. I said they weren't organized militias, which would imply some sort of political message. They are gangs of thugs who are attacking police, much like gangs of thugs in America attack police. Again, do you consider the Bloods, Crips, MS-13, or Latin Kings to be "partisan groups", or are they gangs?

Now you are trying the imply game but you're not getting off the hook as it wont be allowed (as you did not state this interpretation to begin with back on page 2 and it would have been shot down even if you had tried) as neither will your next attempt to move to goal posts, as I will expose it as I'm going to do right now:

A Partisan group need only be organized for a cause to qualify as one. If you have problems with that then you need to go debate Merriam's Dictionary and have fun trying. Sure, a Partisan group can be or have a political leaning but this can not be the only mitigating factor to define it as such.

Sorry, but I'm not going to allow you to try and dig yourself out of the hole you made by having you try and force a narrow interpretation of the term Partisan that you can then cling to in the hopes of discounting all preceding debate or forthcoming debate by my allowing of this skewed avenue of escape.

VneZonyDostupa
Using your same logic, the same is happening in America. Do you agree or disagree with that? I would bet about the same number of police die in Russia each year as in America.

This statistic is a genuine non sequitur to this argument as we have already established that such attacks against police stations do not occur in the USA as they are in the country of Russia as we speak.
Both countries do have police fatalities from violence, however, the USA is not the one having to introduce a wide sweeping legislation for reigning in the accountability of the police force as is happening in Russia because of all of the Partisan activity against the cops in that country as of late, as my premise has stated all along.

VneZonyDostupa
Please reread my post. I pointed out that only one instance of an armed MILITIA was shown in your articles. The rest were street gangs.

Wait,wait,wait...
You tried to move the goal posts on page 3, where as on page 2 you clearly stated this:

"If you had taken the time to actually read your links, you would see that they are all talking about the same event, the same group, and the same small region. This is hardly a "rebellion", and it is not in "sporadic towns over the far east". It is one small militia group, no different than the Branch Dividians in America's past, who are taking it upon themselves to show "what is right". Think Tea Partiers with more guns, and confined to a region about the size of Rhode Island."

Just because we are on page 3 now, you don't get a clean slate to revise your previous statements (goal post moving to some) to further include that all the rest are street gangs, when you in no way, shape, or form, used street gang terminology in that statement. Your own words clearly typed for all to see on page 2 convict you.

This was of course incorrect and got you in the hot water that you are in right now. My links clearly presented to the reader several instances of armed people's attacks against the police. Not just one as you incorrectly or decietfully (reader may take their pick) tried to point out.

And to make matters worse, after you tried moving the goal posts by saying that these other instances were speaking of street gangs, which bordered on an infantile perception (as clearly exposed by my translations of them presented in this debate so that the nonRussian fluent reader would know full well what those articles contained), all in a pathetic attempt to escape the glaring evidence of either deception at the worst or oversight in the least, on your part.

your exposed honey.

VneZonyDostupa
Reported for sexism. I've lost count of how many times you've called me "dear" and "honey". It's degrading and unnecessary.

In Texas that's polite and a term of endearment.
It surprises me in the least that you would attempt to have my post deleted in order to cover the fact that you've been exposed for deception, the moving of goal posts when cornered, and a general lack of understanding as to what is happening in the country you used to reside in.

But in the interests of keeping the peace, I'll refrain from all such terms of endearment that can/will be twisted and used by you to gain leverage with the moderation staff in the hopes of achieving censorship.

VneZonyDostupa
Please point out my lie.

See above.

VneZonyDostupa
YOU said your friends told you about this phrase. YOU said "many towns" were called this. And yet YOU have been unable to show any use of the word in any media.

I'll remind my family, their friends, and the Russian Mafia to start making internet posts on their slang terms, so that VneZonyDostupa can then start believing that they have actually talked about this phenomina and used these adjectives to describe it. It's a fair enough request. Because in a court of law this term could be thrown out as hearsay.

I do have her father looking into it though so don't count your chickens just yet.





[edit on 10-8-2010 by warequalsmurder]