Unfair criticism of the Christian religion...

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by adjensen

 

I can tell you are a christian, and appear to be a fundamentalist one.

No, I am not a fundamentalist, though I started out as one, and some of the attributes of that perspective still come through, sorry.

No I am not religious As I said my religion is based on a compromise. I pray to a goddess, not a god. I Choose to stand up to my enemies and not let them beat me. I'd choose the bible's satan over god.

You've a bit of contradiction up there, perhaps you meant to say "I am not a Christian" or you are confusing "religion" with "organized religion," because if you pray to anyone, you are religious.

Nothing wrong with being religious, nothing wrong with believing in an atypical faith (such as Greek gods) and I'll stand up for your right to do so. But recognize that a faith which lacks a religious and theological basis is fairly easily arbitrary and capricious.

So I will not be swayed from my religion I believe int he goddess and the fact that there are multiple gods, christian, Muslim Buddhist and so on and so forth. Believe what you will I believe what I will.

I am a very "live and let live" person, and so long as you do not misrepresent Christianity (as you did with your "Jesus never said he was God and it might be all made up anyway" statement, which I'll not bother to respond to,) I don't really care who you worship. If you find comfort in praying to Allah, Jesus, Zeus or Trogdor the Burninator, I think that's great.

reply to post by adjensen


I am not religious in that my belief is more of a loosely held one I do not particularly Pray, but rather I acknowledge the goddess.

As for my knowledge on religion I have not read the bible but know its scripture, have had it quoted to me. I would like to know where Jesus said he was god. However the bible it's self to me is just a work of fiction a bunch of old guys wrote based of the teachings of Christ what was said by Christ may not be an accurate interpretation. Seeing as the bible has many various books, versions and is often contradictory to its self, Peace love and worship, and a forgiving god but lets not forget Sodom and Gomorrah, where we see the very opposite of that.

As for faith why is it so hard to believe that there is more than one correct religion and that there are not multiple gods and doctrines to follow all of which are right?

Originally posted by Xiamara
As for my knowledge on religion I have not read the bible but know its scripture, have had it quoted to me. I would like to know where Jesus said he was god.

Here you go. I make no claims for anything else the site says, it's just the first thing that came up from a google search: www.godonthe.net... There are some things that he doesn't include, like Thomas calling Jesus God and not being rebuked for it, but it's a good start. The link at the bottom referring to the Trilemma will give you more information about why these statements are a refutation of the claim that "Jesus was just a nice guy."

However the bible it's self to me is just a work of fiction a bunch of old guys wrote based of the teachings of Christ what was said by Christ may not be an accurate interpretation.

Taking the approach that the Gospels are fictional ends any chance of an open discussion with a Christian. However, I would point out that, if Christ was (or was sent by, if you insist on your "he was a good guy" position) God, does it seem sensible that he would allow his suffering to be for not, and allow his plan to be derailed and lost for all time so quickly after it began? Wouldn't that make his death a bit pointless?

As for faith why is it so hard to believe that there is more than one correct religion and that there are not multiple gods and doctrines to follow all of which are right?

Because, theologically, that belief is impossible. That's what I meant about having faith without religion and theology running the risk of being arbitrary. All religions may have some truth in them, but only one (or none) can have the complete truth. There is no logical way to conclude otherwise.

reply to post by adjensen


The bible has many interpretations I have heard many people after prayer saying that they are one with god. Does that mean they are god no but rather they have a connection with go. The first quote on the page "the father and I are one" it could be interpreted many ways as well the bible has been translated many times meaning this is the interpretation of the translator. In latin the meaning and connotations could be completely different. It is out of context, quotes of of context are just that.

As well Jesus' whole claim of being the son of god can be a contradiction. If you believe in that faith are we not all the sons and daughters of god. As we are his creation his will, thus we are all the children of god, made of his light.

As for someone believing it is a work of fiction yes you can have a logical debate. It just means that I take the bible with a grain of salt and do not hold it as historical fact. Merely as a guide to the christian religion.

Theologically impossible? I doubt that, so Can a Catholic and a Pagan both be right I think so. There doesn't have to be one religion. If your mind believes firmly enough in your convictions that is how you end up. If you believe you are condemned to hell that is where you go If you are a christian and believe in Christ you end up following that path. If you are atheist you will end up as you believe. Is that so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by adjensen

 

The bible has many interpretations I have heard many people after prayer saying that they are one with god. Does that mean they are god no but rather they have a connection with go. The first quote on the page "the father and I are one" it could be interpreted many ways as well the bible has been translated many times meaning this is the interpretation of the translator. In latin the meaning and connotations could be completely different. It is out of context, quotes of of context are just that.

As well Jesus' whole claim of being the son of god can be a contradiction. If you believe in that faith are we not all the sons and daughters of god. As we are his creation his will, thus we are all the children of god, made of his light.

Well, you are seeing this from a viewpoint that lacks sufficient background in Judaism. Jesus was Jewish. By the faith of his time, even HEARING someone say things like he said was a sin. You may equate "I am one with God" to meaning one thing, for the Jew of Christ's time, it meant quite another and was beyond acceptable. If you read the Gospels, the reaction of the Jewish rulers at the time demonstrates this.

Even a skeptic, who understands the nature of Judaism, would agree that what Jesus said could not be construed as anything other than pure and insane blasphemy, unless he was truly God. That isn't really a point that can be argued.

Theologically impossible? I doubt that, so Can a Catholic and a Pagan both be right I think so. There doesn't have to be one religion. If your mind believes firmly enough in your convictions that is how you end up. If you believe you are condemned to hell that is where you go If you are a christian and believe in Christ you end up following that path. If you are atheist you will end up as you believe. Is that so hard to understand?

Yes it is, because it is logically untenable. If you think through your statement of "a Catholic and a Pagan can both be right" logically, you will most likely see it as well.

If you don't want to believe Christianity and pray to Athena or someone else, that's fine. But realize that your understanding of Christian theology is effectively nonexistent, so you are predicating your dismissal on a misplaced belief -- what you think Christianity is, not what it actually is, which are two extremely different things.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by adjensen]

reply to post by adjensen


Again have you read the original LATIN bible? Do you speak latin? Jesus was blasphemous in the Jewish religion but what I am trying to say is, the interpretation we see may not be the original latin meaning. Ever hear of Engrish? Same principle languages don't translate perfectly, what we read in the bible was written by a monk or priest who chose that specific English equivalent, there are often many synonyms for words each with a different connotation. As well connotations change over time, meaning the phraseology of the time period may have had a different meaning take the word Gay, one meaning to be joyous, then to describe homosexuals, an now is a term applied by younger generations to describe something negative. We can only assume things, unless we ask some one from that time.

I believe my own beliefs are true as well as Christians. As In a Christian can believe in their one god which exists because they believe in it therefore I take the I think there fore I am, out look. If YOU believe god exists he exists. If I believe my Goddess exists she exists. Your convictions in your religion creates that belief and thus no one is wrong no one is right. We all are equals. If you believe no god exist no god exists, you die and go no where. You become food for the worms.

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by adjensen

 

Again have you read the original LATIN bible? Do you speak latin? Jesus was blasphemous in the Jewish religion but what I am trying to say is, the interpretation we see may not be the original latin meaning.

The original Bible was written in Hebrew (the Old Testament, probably the Gospel of Matthew, and likely the epistles that were directed at Jewish audiences) and Greek (the rest of the New Testament,) not Latin. No, I have not read them in their original languages, but I have faith that sufficient language experts have done so, and that the translations, which obviously differ in parts, preserve critical information such as this.

I believe my own beliefs are true as well as Christians. As In a Christian can believe in their one god which exists because they believe in it therefore I take the I think there fore I am, out look. If YOU believe god exists he exists. If I believe my Goddess exists she exists. Your convictions in your religion creates that belief and thus no one is wrong no one is right. We all are equals. If you believe no god exist no god exists, you die and go no where. You become food for the worms.

So, it is your belief that we create our own reality? That if I decide that I wish to worship an arbitrary deity (let's call him "Trogdor",) he suddenly pops into existence? How is he a god, if he's simply a creation of a mortal? Beyond that, if the reward of worshiping Trogdor is unlimited chocolates and the right to burn peasants, that will be my reward?

If I concur 100% with another Christian, except that I think heaven will have Hot Pockets, but the other guy says it will not, are two heavens created, and he's in one and I'm in the other?

That seems quite unreasonable when you work it through, sorry.

Barring a universe where we do create our own realities, and all wind up isolated, because no one will even agree on everything, there is no way to reconcile a "Catholic and Pagan both being right," because a founding tenet of Catholicism is that Pagans CANNOT be correct. And I suspect that the Pagan would hold the same tenet, in reverse.

reply to post by adjensen


Sorry Hebrew, not latin. Language experts were not around during the time of the original teachings. It was a monks words only, as well during that time the books were hand written and transcribed who's to say what we find are the ORIGINAL original documents but rather an interpretation from the originals transcribed by a monk? And even a language expert could intemperate it different We don't know the connotations of words, as you say we can only have faith that they are correct.


To me religion IS a human created thing. We Create religion. Purely a creation of our minds. This is my philosophical stand point I will not divert from my opinion nor do I seek to change yours I just give my own views and explain how my views work. There is no right or wrong religion and I'm sticking to that.

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by adjensen

 

Sorry Hebrew, not latin. Language experts were not around during the time of the original teachings. It was a monks words only, as well during that time the books were hand written and transcribed who's to say what we find are the ORIGINAL original documents but rather an interpretation from the originals transcribed by a monk? And even a language expert could intemperate it different We don't know the connotations of words, as you say we can only have faith that they are correct.

There are plenty of older documents that can be gone back to in order to verify (or refute) the translations that have been done. Jerome did the first Latin Bible back in 383, and the Old Testament, of course, is simple the Jewish Torah and other books, so you can go find quite old versions of those.

Again, Christ's claims of divinity are not few, they are not minor, and they are not likely to be the result of "errors" that have creeped in over the centuries. They are the core of Christianity, they had Jews converting to Christ's blasphemous teaching, realizing that they were embracing death by doing so, and they built a significant church within a few years of his death and resurrection.

To me religion IS a human created thing. We Create religion. Purely a creation of our minds. This is my philosophical stand point I will not divert from my opinion nor do I seek to change yours I just give my own views and explain how my views work. There is no right or wrong religion and I'm sticking to that.

Yes, of course religion is a man made construct to bring us closer to God, and I support fully your right to worship who or what you please, in whatever manner you like. But one cannot deny that there is a universal truth, and that, while "there is no right religion" is a logical statement, "there is no wrong religion" is an impossibility.

reply to post by adjensen


All I have to say is nothing is an impossibility just harder to prove.

Christians...You have been tricked... the conspiracies are true, religion is nothing but a form of control and a way for the powers to be to make money and gain power. Do good things come out of religion.. sure.. that doesn't mean religion as a whole is good for people.

www.youtube.com...

^ that's a clip from Zeitgeist. I watched this recently and posted it because it's mostly true and can be confirmed through several different sources.

Christianity is nothing but a re-written religion of a much older religion.. the new testament was rewritten from the old Testament and that was taken from an even old book.. and so on and soon on. Civilization is much older than we all think ... or comprehend if you want to look at it that way. Christianity is a "new" religion.. it's really only a couple of hundred years old... about 700 or so.. it wasn't till 1300 AD that Christianity became the power house religion that it is today.

and yes, it can all be traced back to Egypt. I didn't read ever post in this thread but I saw someone shrug off another and say what does this have to do with Egypt... EVERYTHING.

There is a book called The Jesus/ Horus connection... I suggest you check that out. Then look up the eye of Horus and check out some of the symbols for Horus... the eye of Horus... the eagle.. then take a look at your money.. and your credit card.. your bank statements... corporate logos... once you make the connection, you will start to see "the all seeing eye" literally, right in front of your eyes.

Religion + Fear + Occult = control of the mass

The Christian religion tells you to be a good person, or you'll go to hell... so right of the bat, you're tricked into acting a certain way...or else you spend the rest of your existence in a fiery place called hell. Or the big guy in the sky with a white beard will point his finger at your and do bad things to you... What if there is no hell? What if there is no big guy in the sky? Or if you look at the opposite side.. if you’re good, good things will happen.

You can debate the rest of the religion all you want but you'll still come back to that simple fact... Christianity says there is an after life.. and when we die some of us go to a good place and some of us go to a bad place. Where we go depends on how we live our life. Christianity is one of few religions that believe that.

what if we all go to the same place regardless of how we act in this world or what we do? What if murders and persists both go to the same after life?

Well I guess if that were true we wouldn't need religion.. would we?

The religion in itself isn't the issue... It's the church that we have a problem with.

Originally posted by Wolf Eyes
There is a book called The Jesus/ Horus connection... I suggest you check that out.

Here you go: www.kingdavid8.com... feel free to check that out.

The Christian religion tells you to be a good person, or you'll go to hell... so right of the bat, you're tricked into acting a certain way...or else you spend the rest of your existence in a fiery place called hell. Or the big guy in the sky with a white beard will point his finger at your and do bad things to you... What if there is no hell? What if there is no big guy in the sky?

You clearly have a very limited view of Christianity if you presume to use such childish and belittling descriptions. Why would any Christian take the advice of someone who clearly has such a poor understanding of our faith, and shows no respect for it?

what if we all go to the same place regardless of how we act in this world or what we do? What if murders and persists both go to the same after life?

So you're a moral relativist? Do you believe that abusing children is wrong simply because our current societal mores say so? Do you believe that there is no absolute morality?

Do you believe it would be a good thing if murderers, pedophiles, thieves and the like are not held accountable for their acts?

“Here you go: www.kingdavid8.com... feel free to check that out.”

I checked out you’re link.. frankly there’s not much detail in it and I see no references to any hieroglyphics. Here’s the references listed:

General sources:
Egyptian Mythology: Horus
Tektonics: Horus, Isis, Osiris

When you click on those link, you find more sources for the information you showed us.

Here are some of the sources listed.
Stephanie Cass - Encyclopedia Mythica: Horus
Bud.ERR -- Budge, E. Wallis. . 1961.
Fraz.AAO -- Frazer, J. G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961.
Griff.OO -- Griffith, J. Gwyn. The Origins of Osiris and His Cult. Brill: 1996.
Meek.DL -- Meeks, Dimitri. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.
Short.EG -- Shorter, Alan. Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. 1937.

What do all these things authors and books have in common? Every last name listed is of English decent. Now I haven’t looked into these authors in detail.. but I’m going to take a wild guess and say they are all Christians or related to Christians. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were masons either.

“You clearly have a very limited view of Christianity ..."

First of all, I’m not giving you any advice and I do not really care if you believe me or not. I enjoy hearing a Christians point of view of the world so I participate in these threads. I was baptized catholic.. my father side of the family is very catholic so I think I have an idea about what Christians believe. Frankly, most Christians/ Catholics don’t even know the history of their own faith. Third of all, why do you think Christianity is so complicated? A child can understand Christianity. It is a very simple concept.. be a good boy or girl and you’ll go to heaven. I think a child would have a much harder time understating the concept of Nirvana than they would Heaven and Hell.

“So you're a moral relativist? Do you believe that abusing children is wrong simply because our current societal mores say so? Do you believe that there is no absolute morality?”

You bring up GREAT points here… why aren't Catholic priests brought to justice when they abuse children? Why are they not tried in a criminal court of law? I’m asking you because I don’t know the answer. Yes, I do believe in morality.. I don’t religion to know that murder is wrong. I don’t believe that good people go to a different after life than the rest of us… or in other words, I don’t believe in heaven or hell.

“Do you believe it would be a good thing if murderers, pedophiles, thieves and the like are not held accountable for their acts?”

They should be held accountable for their actions against men by other men… but that was not the point I was trying to make, we’re talking religion here and the laws of God.. not the laws of men.. are we not?

Christians have their set of “laws” that will get you into heaven. The laws of man happen to follow religious laws. I don’t think that is a good thing. For example, in the US gay people can not marry. They can not have civil unions either. There are several reasons for this but a big reason is that Christianity is the dominant religion in the US and it forbids homosexuality. Gay men go to hell... according to Christians...

You said I don’t understand Christians… you’re right I don’t. How about you help me understand then. I have plenty of questions if you have answer.

Let’s start with this one since you still aren’t convince there is a connection between Egyptian culture and Christianity...

WHY ARE THERE EGPYTIAN SYMBOLS ALL OVER THE VACITCAN ? There is an Egyptian obelisk that stands in the square of St. John Lateran. It was imported directly from Egypt. There is Egyptian symbolism all throughout the Vatican – this link shows the Obelisk and gives info - www.hol.com...

Look familiar? en.wikipedia.org...

I look foward to your reply ...


[edit on 24-8-2010 by Wolf Eyes]

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Wolf Eyes]

reply to post by Wolf Eyes


The link I posted was just some random thing I found on google, it's not my work. Almost all of these "conspiracy" threads can be refuted by just pointing you to someone else who's done the legwork, there's no point in writing it up again. Google "Jesus Horus" and there are 4,000,000 pages to choose from (most, I assume, reiterating your claim, but as a Christian, you get the "Christian response", obviously.)

It seems like most of your beef is with the Catholics. As I am not Catholic, I am probably not the right person to ask to defend their faith. On the Egyptian thing, looking at the wikipedia page for the Vatican, one finds:

The Vatican obelisk was originally taken by Caligula from Heliopolis, Egypt to decorate the spina of his circus and is thus its last visible remnant. This area became the site of martyrdom of many Christians after the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. Ancient tradition holds that it was in this circus that Saint Peter was crucified upside-down.

That source, at least, indicates that Caligula (hardly a Catholic :-) put it there as some sort of monument (to himself, no doubt) and it has since become something that has meaning and value, and no one thinks it's a good idea to junk.

You're right about one thing. Christianity is quite simple. Love God, love everyone else, accept Christ's sacrifice. Why would anyone need to plagiarize another religion for something as fundamental and simple as that?

"You're right about one thing. Christianity is quite simple. Love God, love everyone else, accept Christ's sacrifice. Why would anyone need to plagiarize another religion for something as fundamental and simple as that?"

Because they are good concepts…but those concepts are found in all religions…not just Christianity and that’s the point I’m trying to make. What is unique to Christianity is the concept of Heaven and Hell… God and the Devil.. good vs. evil … that sort of thing. You left that part out, and it’s a major factor in the faith.

You’re right when you say I have a beef with Catholics.. I do.. and Catholics are Christians. As you said, you’re not a Catholic, you’re a Christian. I get that reply often too…

I don’t understand what it means to be “Christian” . I would say you are one of those Christians that pick out the parts of the new testament that you like and you try to live your life a certain what because you think if you live your life that way your life will be blessed and you will go to heaven when you die…. but that’s not the Christian view. You have to choose, you’re either on the Christian team or you’re not.

So let’s get back to the topic of your post… why do people criticize Christians? Well for starters, more wars were fought in the name of Christ than any other religious figure in the history of the world. Since Christians believe they are playing for Team Good or Team God, they can justify war. We’re better than the other guy… we have God on our side. Now you can tell me all day that Jesus preached love and not war and that war is bad.. but either way, there are tens of thousands of Christian soldiers spread throughout Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest of the world right now.

“ I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." George W. Bush August 2003.h

23. And I just -- I cannot speak strongly enough about how we must collectively get after those who kill in the name of -- in the name of some kind of false religion.
George W. Bush at Press appearance with King Abdullah of Jordan, Aug. 1, 2002

pierretristam.com...


George is a born again Christian… so here is a man that says he’s on a mission from God to fight terrorists…… because they are evil, because they religion is false and because God told him to. Apparently God has talked to many men over the years and told them to do lots of different things that don’t really sound like the things that Jesus preached .. didn’t Jesus say to turn the other cheek? This is how you Christians confuse me.. you say you believe one thing but you do another.

So what makes the Islamic faith any more false than Christian faith? Who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy? Bad terrorists do bad things, so the good Christians bomb their homes and schools… that makes more terrorists and the cycle repeats.

George Bush is a Christian and you are a Christian, so you must believe the same thing then… If your answer is yes.. now you know why you get criticized for your faith. If you’re answer is no, well then you’re not Christian.. at least you’re not Christian in the sense that George W. Bush and 90% of the rest of the Christians out there are.

If I could criticize only certain Christians or Catholics I would… but I cant… I can’t say George Bush is a bad Christian and you’re a good one. Maybe you’re not the one dropping bombs on innocent people.. but maybe you are the guy standing outside the planned parenthood building protesting abortion… maybe you’re the guy at the town hall meetings that is screaming about the sanctity of marriage… maybe you’re the guy who I saw protesti

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Wolf Eyes]

Originally posted by Wolf Eyes
What is unique to Christianity is the concept of Heaven and Hell… God and the Devil.. good vs. evil … that sort of thing. You left that part out, and it’s a major factor in the faith.

No it isn't. If you want to think it is, and you want to think that it's unique to Christianity, feel free, but that is not true.

So let’s get back to the topic of your post… why do people criticize Christians? Well for starters, more wars were fought in the name of Christ than any other religious figure in the history of the world.

And how many did Christ ask to be fought in his name?

How many people died in the 20th Century at the hands of secular tyrants who decried Christianity, much as you are? Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot? I'll give you a hint -- it's a lot larger than the number of people who died in wars fought "in the name of Christ."

Evil men do evil things. Get over it. Religion at least makes an attempt to curtail it.

George Bush is a Christian and you are a Christian, so you must believe the same thing then… If your answer is yes.. now you know why you get criticized for your faith. If you’re answer is no, well then you’re not Christian.. at least you’re not Christian in the sense that George W. Bush and 90% of the rest of the Christians out there are.

Geez. Prejudiced much? George Bush is a Christian and so am I, so our ideals, beliefs and actions are one and the same? The actions of some random politician are now what define Christianity? That's about the dumbest rationalization of bigotry that I've seen on here, and I've seen some whoppers.

Yep, George Bush, me and Mother Theresa. Birds of a feather.

If I could criticize only certain Christians or Catholics I would… but I cant… I can’t say George Bush is a bad Christian and you’re a good one.

That's fine. You go ahead with your bigoted and prejudicial beliefs. You are clearly entitled to take the moral high road here.

Horus is so vastly different from christ that is probably the worst thing to compare to Jesus to say Jesus was just a story.

Perhaps before spouting that zeitgeist nonsense, you actually do some research into the mythology of horus and how he came into being. In short, it involves dismembering and a golden phallus, if you consider that a virgin birth, I laugh at you.

“hippomchippo - Perhaps before spouting that zeitgeist nonsense, you actually do some research into the mythology of horus and how he came into being. In short, it involves dismembering and a golden phallus, if you consider that a virgin birth, I laugh at you. “

I said mostly true.. not 100% … I was referring to the astrological similarities that they point out in the clip. Here is 1 source that I already listed -www.amazon.com...

I put the clip there because I know you Christians are not going to go buy the book in the link about. Perhaps you can learn to read a post before you make a comment.

“No it isn't. If you want to think it is, and you want to think that it's unique to Christianity, feel free, but that is not true.”

Here is a list of religions that don’t believe in hell…

Buddhism, Confucianism, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, Black Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Rastafarianism, Gypsies, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Vedanta, Agnosticism, Atheism, Marxism, Naturalism, Secular Humanism, Necromancy, Rosicrucianism, Wicca, Christian Science, New Age, Scientology, Theosophy, Transcendental Meditation, Unitarian Universalist, The Way International, The Boston Church, Children of God.

“Evil men do evil things. Get over it. Religion at least makes an attempt to curtail it.”

LOL now that’s a good one.. should be more like evil Christian men do evil things… Hilter was a Christian … Castro… Christian… sadam Hussein.. Islam .. another religion that believes in heaven and hell. Birds of a feather if you ask me. Name me an evil Buddahist dictor for me please?

“The actions of some random politician are now what define Christianity?”

Yup.. that’s right..that’s what people like me think of people like you. You’re all a bunch of stupid hillbillies that got nothing but your guns and your religion.. so wrapped up in your faith to see the world around you.

“That's fine. You go ahead with your bigoted and prejudicial beliefs.”

I will… that’s why I’m here… to rock the boat a little. Get used to it.. you’re going to see more and more people like me pop up as time passes.

Re: adjensen

I can only commend your attitude of 'live and let live', which I don't believe is empty boasting in your case.

That doesn't exclude differences in other ways, but I see such as academic, hardly leading to any girdling of flaming swords.

Have only skimmed this most recent page, but I have enjoyed the posts from you and other posters; I'll return later, after more careful reading.

Only one observation: In one of your posts, you used a link to 'David..something', and I followed it. It looks pretty pro-christian to me, and I question its objectivity. When I earlier had a discussion with you about the Nicene decree, I didn't pick anti-christian sites as my source of information, but tried to find 'neutral' or slightly pro-christian, which couldn't be accused of being biased.

You seem like a very intelligent and fair person, and I have great respect for you, but....you need to stoop to this kind of info?

In all respect, Bogomil