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WARNING: Actual philosophy!

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posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 06:18 PM
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Seriously, you might want to sit down...

Anyways, a few thoughts I had while at work today about the existence of god, free will vs. determinism and a unrelated (to this board) thought.

first the unrelated thought:

I was driving home listening to AM talk radio and the amount of common sense in this country (and world for this matter) is staggeringly low. Like the lift of the ban on gay marriage in california... not that theres anything wrong with that... is... just... I can't even describe how insane the notion of ONE JUDGE UNDERMINING AN ENTIRE STATE'S POPULATION is. But enough of that

1. Existence of god
**for the love of god, this is based on the bible because this isn't the religion board and thats not the issue**

Pascals Wager

-Either god exists or he doesn't
-not believing either has no reward or infinite punishment
-believing has either no reward or infinite reward

and it made a lot of sense (and note "believe" stands for living the kind of life that relates to either stance). But then I thought that there are so many ideas of who or what god is, how can one be sure that their god is the right one to believe in? I decided not to pursue that thought because it truly is a fools errand to learn about ALL religions past and present.

I then decided to take on the more menial task to solve The Problem of Evil

-If god is perfect and good and all powerful he must be able and powerful enough to create a world with no evil
-Evil exists
-therefore god does not

Seems straight foreword and my intuition is that this is correct. Because The Bible says that there was a time with no evil (before "the fall" and before the earth and everything) so why is there evil now? I've heard people say that evil has to exist to have free will and I say no

Suppose god prevented us from thinking about evil or being able to preform any evil action. Evil being used VERY VAUGLY. We wouldn't know how to lie or even grasp the idea of saying anything false, we would be completely oblivious. We could still decide what good things to do, what to eat etc. So being physically or mentally unable to do something does not conflict with free will is the basic idea.

But then I remembered that in heaven supposedly there is no evil, and assumedly free will. So I guess if you want to go the biblical way, then there.

One strong argument for the existence of god/ argument of evil that I pondered today as well:

-suppose there is a room with tiny gnats flying around
-just because you cant observe them doesn't mean they don't exist
-gods ways are infinitely above ours and trying to figure it out would be like trying to spot a gnat in a room

a more agnostic approach and not much can be said about that.



Another response is to say that evil does not exist because it is merely the absence of good etc. etc.

Well then. If evil has an absolute negitive value, good must have a infinitely positive value, and based on the nature of infinity, any number added or subtracted from infinity has no effect on the whole. So I guess I'm saying that gods goodness should overshadow the evil so much that evil would cease to exist.


Cosmological Argument

-everything contingent has a cause
-the ultimate cause is god (who is everlasting)

without debating the nature of infinite beings the argument still has holes. Just because the parts of the universe we observe are changing and have cause and effect doesn't mean the whole universe does.

Imagine a ant sitting on a polar bear, the ant might think that the whole universe is white.

I don't think I need to say anything more.



2. Free will

If god exists then free will does not. God knows everything so he would know whatever is going to happen. We merely have the illusion of choosing.

not really a point but just a thought:

does our arms move etc. because we want them to, or because of the various chemical and neurological reactions in our bodies?

more of a mind body problem...


Random thoughts

What allows us to identify ourselves with our past selves? is it memories? Suppose another person was implanted with our own memories. when does a person cease to be a person? A dead body is still thought of as that person rather than a lump of meat and bones.

What implications do gettier counter examples... imply on knowledge, if a justified true belief is not knowledge, then what is? Is is even rational to be skeptical about knowledge?



I doubt any of that made sense but I've seen way worse BS posted on ATS, so I thought I'd give it a go




posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 06:24 PM
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Pascals wager is based on the idea of a christian God and other views of God.

What if there is a God that rewards skeptical thinkers and debunkers and punishes those who believe blindly?

What I find interesting about the christian religion is that it is said angels do not have free will and are only to serve God, can someone tell me what a fallen angel provides to God? If only entertainment?

And also, I think our primitive ideas of the universe are completely wrong, and that the true nature of the universe is so complex and bizarre that nobody could ever truly understand it all, the same for nature.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by hippomchippo]



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 06:25 PM
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i'm going to give that read a little more thought, i think.

from all perspectives, i think we keep going the way we are going and perhaps our future will catch up to us here in the present.

but i may reserve the right to claim i am totally wrong pending future information my experiences may gather and/or produce.

have fun,
et

[edit on 6-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by hippomchippo
Pascals wager is based on the idea of a christian God and other views of God.


no offense, but duh. a light googling will show that pascal was a chistian. and I already put a disclaimer... so yeah


Originally posted by hippomchippo
What if there is a God that rewards skeptical thinkers and debunkers and punishes those who believe blindly?


what if 2+2= ∞?


Originally posted by hippomchippo
What I find interesting about the christian religion is that it is said angels do not have free will and are only to serve God, can someone tell me what a fallen angel provides to God? If only entertainment?


Fallen angel means that an angel rebelled. So that means it had free will. But I thought heaven was perfect... again more questions than answers



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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no offense, but duh. a light googling will show that pascal was a chistian. and I already put a disclaimer... so yeah

I know Pascal was a christian, but Pascals wager is used to try to convert others, therefore it is flawed by using a christian idea of a god that is not believed in by the person who is trying to be converted.




Fallen angel means that an angel rebelled. So that means it had free will. But I thought heaven was perfect... again more questions than answers

Exactly, I've always been told that angels were the first beings created by God, and had no free will, and that is why he created humans with free will.
Personally, I think if the christian God exists, he's just having a laugh and trying to be entertained by inventing satan, sin, etc.

Also this is hardly philosophy, just more of the same tired old rhetoric that is paraded through this forum daily.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by hippomchippo]



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by hippomchippo


Fallen angel means that an angel rebelled. So that means it had free will. But I thought heaven was perfect... again more questions than answers

Exactly, I've always been told that angels were the first beings created by God, and had no free will, and that is why he created humans with free will.
Personally, I think if the christian God exists, he's just having a laugh and trying to be entertained by inventing satan, sin, etc.


I just find the whole idea of god/s flawed. In order for a religion to be effective it asks the individual to fill the holes/flaws with faith.

IRM



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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Evil exists because it's what makes Good good. If there was no evil, you wouldn't know what good is therefore it'd be the same thing all day. I believe our human shells are just a test to teach us moderation for when we move on so we can balance out good and evil ourselves rather then just sticking to one and becoming a fanatic of it.

I'm a spiritualist so I believe in the world tree instead of 'God' which could still be considered God. :p



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 07:45 PM
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THE USA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!!!

It's a republic, which means majority rules... UNLESS it infringes on someone's rights!!

Ben Franklin said something along the lines of "We just gave the nation a republic, how long they keep it that way is up to them".

A Democracy is SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM, if 51% of the voters want something from 49% of the voters, they get it.

NOT in a Republic though.

This judge saw that this law infringed on someones rights.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 07:51 PM
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if you want to learn actual philosophy, read Boethius, he explains that God does exist alongside free will because there are two kinds of necessity, simple and conditional.

If our actions were nothing more than electrical brain impulses, what is causing the brain impulses? It is our self that causes this, otherwise you would be walking not by your own power but by some other power, in such a way that I could not address you, there would be no you, I would instead be addressing a humanoid shape with no soul or conscience.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:06 PM
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Um, this is not philosophy in the least.

Your entire OP is based on faulty logic. You presume much. For example, the following:




-If god is perfect and good and all powerful he must be able and powerful enough to create a world with no evil
-Evil exists
-therefore god does not


Evil exists? how do you know that evil exists? Perhaps what you call "evil", i call "shiz happening"?

Evil is a term based on religion. To use it in your logic creates a flaw, as it is a circular logic type of thing. Without religion/God, there is no evil. Evil is dependant on the belief system.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by afterschoolfun
 




If god exists then free will does not. God knows everything so he would know whatever is going to happen. We merely have the illusion of choosing.


That isn't correct. God exists outside of time, so he doesn't know what is going to happen, he knows it because, to him, it has already happened. Right now, you have a choice, you can either continue reading this, or turn off the computer and do something else. It's your decision, but God knows, and has always known, what the result of your decision would be. Still yours to make, though.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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1. Pascals Wager......only works when you have one God to choose from.

2.The Problem of Evil......first you have to define evil. Will live in a reality
where YOU HAVE TO KILL LIFE and consume it to survive. Could there be
anything more evil, or more necessary? And it's a tad arbitrary on our
(human's) part how we decide what is evil about killing. It is based largely
on relative size. We think nothing of eradicating an ant hill or swatting a fly.
Mice, spiders, snakes, minnows...all small, all fair game, even if you want to
be cruel for cruel's sake. But as you move up in size, and/or cuteness
society's morality takes effect. Can't kill it unless you're going to eat it.
And you can't eat puppies and kittens...that's evil, lol.

More about what is evil....We made the whole thing up. We draw up our
own arbitrary and dynamic guide, separated by time and geography. What
is evil for one culture is acceptable and normal in another...we make it up
on the fly to suit our selfish needs.

2. Free will.....There is simply no way to tell if we possess this.
But no matter. We live our lives, in EVERY society, as if freewill
is a given...even the fundamental theists who believe God is omniscient
operate under the assumption of freewill, regardless of logic.

And yes, be skeptical about knowledge. Knowledge is dynamic. Today's
accepted truth is tomorrows false and silly notion. Always be skeptical
.....it will keep you from falling off the edge of the world, and into the mouth
of a dragon.




posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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So say for instance Apple make a iPhone, The dont deal with every customer individually, I can of look at good in the same way, He created the earth, then moved on to his next project leavin us to deal with customer service, Which unfortunatly for us is TPTB.

When the time comes the evil people in the world will pay,

People ever wonder why the people on the right path, gods path dont have #, yet all the scum of the world, evil people have it all?

Maybe the jokes on us maybe evil is the way?

Just a thought..



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan

I just find the whole idea of god/s flawed. In order for a religion to be effective it asks the individual to fill the holes/flaws with faith.

IRM


Faith. Faith is required to live in the everyday world. It's intuitive. You heard the one about the swans, right? Every swan thus far is white so all swans are white... turns out there are black ones in Australia.

Same thing for us, for accepting that when we step on the ground, it wont shatter into a million pieces. We haven't experienced everything so there is logically no way to prove induction based arguments, doing so would be circular reasoning.

There is a high probability that each step we take will end up like everyone before it, but there is no logical base for it.

So we use faith everyday to stave off madness, I don't see why applying it to god makes any less sense.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by rival

1. Pascals Wager......only works when you have one God to choose from.


well apply it to each religion separately. a God(s) either exist(s) or not, thats the main basis. Honestly using that argument is... well grasping at straws.



2.The Problem of Evil......first you have to define evil. Will live in a reality
where YOU HAVE TO KILL LIFE and consume it to survive.


define life. aren't beings just clumps of electrons which are mostly empty space?



Could there be
anything more evil, or more necessary? And it's a tad arbitrary on our
(human's) part how we decide what is evil about killing. It is based largely
on relative size. We think nothing of eradicating an ant hill or swatting a fly.
Mice, spiders, snakes, minnows...all small, all fair game, even if you want to
be cruel for cruel's sake.


WTF? Death is apart of life... and last time I checked, animals ate other animals as well... yep. it's still like that.



But as you move up in size, and/or cuteness
society's morality takes effect. Can't kill it unless you're going to eat it.
And you can't eat puppies and kittens...that's evil, lol.


society and morality are completely different issues. But there is no natural laws that prevent us (human ANIMALS) from acting naturally. And if it was between starving and eating a kitten, if your instinct doesn't kick in... well natural selection did us a favor



More about what is evil....We made the whole thing up. We draw up our
own arbitrary and dynamic guide, separated by time and geography. What
is evil for one culture is acceptable and normal in another...we make it up
on the fly to suit our selfish needs.


True. some things are wrong because of arbitrary reasons (jaywalking etc.) but some things are wrong in and of themselves (raping a baby etc.) As far as time and culture goes, it's a slippery slope, say that morality is relative. Someone rapes a baby and it turns out they come from a baby raping culture you couldn't judge them... scary huh?



2. Free will.....There is simply no way to tell if we possess this.
But no matter. We live our lives, in EVERY society, as if freewill
is a given...even the fundamental theists who believe God is omniscient
operate under the assumption of freewill, regardless of logic.


umm Calvinists. Google it. And regardless of logic? Really? If god knows everything then he knows what you're going to do. Even the Bible mentions "predestination".



And yes, be skeptical about knowledge. Knowledge is dynamic. Today's
accepted truth is tomorrows false and silly notion. Always be skeptical
.....it will keep you from falling off the edge of the world, and into the mouth
of a dragon.

I don't think you know what skepticism means in the philosophical community. It's not being unsure like in the way we use it in everyday language. It's denying it outright as in we know nothing we can't know anything.

Believing the earth is flat wasn't knowledge because it wasn't true. A belief is NOT KNOWLEDGE, only a true FACT can be knowledge. OF course belief changes, but no matter how much you believe 2+2=5, it's still 4.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by afterschoolfun
 




If god exists then free will does not. God knows everything so he would know whatever is going to happen. We merely have the illusion of choosing.


That isn't correct. God exists outside of time, so he doesn't know what is going to happen, he knows it because, to him, it has already happened. Right now, you have a choice, you can either continue reading this, or turn off the computer and do something else. It's your decision, but God knows, and has always known, what the result of your decision would be. Still yours to make, though.



illusion |iˈloō zh ən|
noun
a false idea or belief : he had no illusions about the trouble she was in.
• a deceptive appearance or impression : the illusion of family togetherness | the tension between illusion and reality.
• a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses : Zollner's illusion makes parallel lines seem to diverge by placing them on a zigzag-striped background.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Um, this is not philosophy in the least.

Your entire OP is based on faulty logic. You presume much. For example, the following:




-If god is perfect and good and all powerful he must be able and powerful enough to create a world with no evil
-Evil exists
-therefore god does not


Evil exists? how do you know that evil exists? Perhaps what you call "evil", i call "shiz happening"?

Evil is a term based on religion. To use it in your logic creates a flaw, as it is a circular logic type of thing. Without religion/God, there is no evil. Evil is dependant on the belief system.



I was going to say something but there's no point. You have no idea what philosophy is and I suggest you keep it that way. You wouldn't understand it.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:53 PM
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There is a high probability that each step we take will end up like everyone before it, but there is no logical base for it.

So we use faith everyday to stave off madness, I don't see why applying it to god makes any less sense.

For me it makes less sense because I have never interacted with God
in a tactile way. But I interact with the ground under my feet everyday
in a tactile way. The ground is part of a tangible and tactile reality that
I assess in real time, making logical assumptions based on previous
experience to keep myself safe from harm.

Sorry, It is not my intention to direct your philosophy thread to religion. Please carry on with the philosophy...it is more fun.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by filosophia
if you want to learn actual philosophy, read Boethius, he explains that God does exist alongside free will because there are two kinds of necessity, simple and conditional.

If our actions were nothing more than electrical brain impulses, what is causing the brain impulses? It is our self that causes this, otherwise you would be walking not by your own power but by some other power, in such a way that I could not address you, there would be no you, I would instead be addressing a humanoid shape with no soul or conscience.


If you were to read something from this century you would be more up to date. So this is his famous proof:

1, Definition: A god is that which nothing greater (more perfect) can be thought.
2, Assumption: It is greater (more perfect) to exist in reality than the mind alone.
3, QED: A god exists.

there are many things wrong with that. But one is that infinity can be imagined, it can't by definition.

And maybe I have learned phil. Read Russell.

also, consciousness is not defined, as far as things are, out actions are a result of electrons firing. But since you're so smart, head on down to MIT and let them in on the secret.



posted on Aug, 6 2010 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by hippomchippo


Fallen angel means that an angel rebelled. So that means it had free will. But I thought heaven was perfect... again more questions than answers

Exactly, I've always been told that angels were the first beings created by God, and had no free will, and that is why he created humans with free will.
Personally, I think if the christian God exists, he's just having a laugh and trying to be entertained by inventing satan, sin, etc.


I just find the whole idea of god/s flawed. In order for a religion to be effective it asks the individual to fill the holes/flaws with faith.

IRM


Science does this as well. Whole sub-fields of physics rely upon assumptions to further ideas. The Big Bang is a pretty fine example of this: "We don't know how the universe was formed, but here's a good guess...". Evolution is another..."we don't know how human beings came to be on the scene, but here's a good guess...let's believe that"




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