The ATS UFO Section is lacking progress!

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
What picture, document or video would not be labeled as a hoax in this forum?

Copernicus.....
What about this one?
Revisiting The 1994 Nellis Air Force Base UFO Video

Yes, I read in some other thread that it was one of the ones you believed was amongst the sightings that could not easily be identified as something natural.
Question is, if you are convinced, why are you not in the progress of moving on and finding out what the bigger picture is? What are you waiting for?

Copernicus.....

I'm not quite sure I understand your question.

If you feel inclined to clarify it a little, I will address it in the morning (it's very late here, now).

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


As I understand it, you think the object in the videos could possibly be alien ships (even though you say "they stand up to scrutiny" so my interpretation of that could be false).

If you think there is a possibility that they are, why are you not investigating further?

reply to post by Copernicus


There is (and this isnt me being imodest, I just havent time for manners) nothing you could tell me right this moment, which could teach me something I havent heard already about the disinformation movement against disclosure. Nothing.
Im not new to the idea of a cover up, and Im not shocked that there is one. However , if you really think that the real disinformation agents are the ones promoting skepticism and scientific examination of reports, then I personaly think you have fallen on the wrong side of the fence here in a big way.
First the large majority of disinformation does not come from agents in the feild , hidden amongst either Believer or skeptics, instead it comes direct from the government. All they have to do is fail to deny here, deny too strongly there, and almost all on its own, a conspiracy is born, they know it, basic psychology training will teach that the merest unusual wording or phrasing is indicative of altered motive, and will whet the interest of an enquiring mind. However there are of course feild agents involved with the disinformation against disclosure.
I believe the most virulent and dangerous disinformation agents, the most well placed agents to perform a systematic destruction of the case for UFO and Aliens are placed not within the skeptic and debunker set of involved parties, but amongst the strung out mass of hippy spiritualist wackjobs who would accept a fist in the face if they thought it would let them see a UFO. Those agents, and the remotely lobotomised followers they have are a far greater threat to the cause than any well connected skeptic, or any government empowered debunker. By a freakin mile.The reasons for that are simple. No one trusts a skeptic to have no alterior motive for claiming a video or story is bunk, save other skeptics. But believers will accept the word of a person who claims to be a contactee. I have my eyes open to informational assault from all directions, and I feel somewhat concerned that your assumption seems to be that only you are seeing whats happening, and only your analysis has merit. I too am switched on, and open to all the possibilities, probabilities, and unfortunate truths which can be told, or heard. And in that regard without doubt, we are not alone.
Have a little faith in your fellow believers ability to discern these things for him or herself.

Oh yes, blame the skeptics...honestly, if it wasn't for skeptics this forum would be in an even worse state than it is right now. The vast majority of the time skeptics are correct whether you like it or not. If you are unhappy with things then present 'solid' evidence to start a good discussion on the subject...the problem with that is what many believers think qualifies as 'solid' evidence is laughable. And on that note that i will say there is absolutely zero evidence for intelligent alien life visiting earth...none.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Solomons]

Originally posted by Solomons
And on that note that i will say there is absolutely zero evidence for intelligent alien life visiting earth...none.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Solomons]

indeed.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by Copernicus

 

Im not new to the idea of a cover up, and Im not shocked that there is one.

Right, the government is hiding the truth about ufos/ets , they're "covering" it up. Have you seen the mess in a government office and how it is run seriously? they can't even manage things like federal prisons or income taxes properly and everyone working there hold no secret whatsoever more than a few days before all their family members and entourage knows about it.

Even in the army, soldiers share everything between them, it's ridiculous to think they could hide something for long. Russian spies take 10 years more or so to steal any secrets from the most top secret files in the USA. Everyone in the whole world would know if there was a cover up and what it consist of.

reply to post by Conan The Usurper


Thats interesting. I wonder if you have the intelligence resources to confirm without doubt that the disorganisation you refference extends to the highest reaches of the intelligence services, I.E. the pentagon and the MI5/6 Headquaters respectively ? If so , who the hell do YOU work for?

I started reading this thread in anticipation of some serious insight then you go and mention project camelot and credible research in the same sentence.


At this point I lost interest.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by Conan The Usurper

 

Thats interesting. I wonder if you have the intelligence resources to confirm without doubt that the disorganisation you refference extends to the highest reaches of the intelligence services, I.E. the pentagon and the MI5/6 Headquaters respectively ? If so , who the hell do YOU work for?

link

that's just one...

"On August 4, 1945, [Should be July 4] Soviet school children gave a carving of the Great Seal of the United States to U.S. Ambassador Averell Harriman. It hung in the ambassador's Moscow residential office until 1952 when the State Department discovered that it was 'bugged.'

The microphone hidden inside was passive and only activated when the Soviets wanted it to be. They shot radio waves from a van parked outside into the ambassador's office and could then detect the changes of the microphone's diaphragm inside the resonant cavity. When Soviets turned off the radio waves it was virtually impossible to detect the hidden 'bug.' The Soviets were able to eavesdrop on the U.S. ambassador's conversations for six years."

----

it seems like you're totally unaware that industrialized countries consistently spy on each other and steal information all the time. it involves thousands of spies taking risk all the times to get to know what their enemies are doing.

Undoubtedly, if aliens existed, that information would have been stolen too.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Conan The Usurper]

I agree that the UFO and aliens section of ATS is lacking progress.

Back in the day a man walked up to a bear to hug it. He got killed. Others saw it and learned from it.

Back in the day people were freezing their butts off until some sceptic scrutinised friction and created fire.

Back in the day people would die from disease from human excrement until some sceptics created a plumbing system.

People were still dying years later until some sceptic back when, that used to cut off people's hair and warts, figured out some medicine to make them better.

The list really does go on and on. Language, trade, education, art, science etc. so progress does seem to be made by scrutineers who share their findings.

Foofey's on the other hand don't require scrutiny. They don't stand up to the scientific method. Proving them is just plain too hard for a reasonable mind. Ergo only unreasonable minds can prove them, and by prove I mean just plain believe.

Now you must believe me as alien Santa told me this and whilst he was last visiting from the Tooth Fairy dimension. I have no way of proving to you that this is true, it is and you must know it as TPTB always manipulate reality to hide this fact - THAT IS WHY YOU CAN'T FIND ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

So my celestial body finder moniker member - in the words of all believers: Prove me wrong.

-m0r

Originally posted by Copernicus
Why do you think nobody has turned this forum around before?

It's been done before.

Originally posted by Copernicus
You must realize its not possible for forum posters to present "stellar out of this world" threads that will shut up the skeptics?

It's been done before

--------------------------------------

I hear many others say "be the change" "set the standard" yadayadaya...

...what about you?

Alot of us don't have the time to do indepth research due to other things, and those that do/did that have had the time are no longer here with us...

Mr.'s (I, J, M, & Z)

Yes...you know who I'm talking about.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Solofront]

Originally posted by Conan The Usurper
Right, the government is hiding the truth about ufos/ets , they're "covering" it up. Have you seen the mess in a government office and how it is run seriously? they can't even manage things like federal prisons or income taxes properly and everyone working there hold no secret whatsoever more than a few days before all their family members and entourage knows about it.

This is naturally not the ordinary government. They have no knowledge. That would be like trusting the keys to the kingdom to a bored desk clerk.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by se25watcher
I started reading this thread in anticipation of some serious insight then you go and mention project camelot and credible research in the same sentence.

At this point I lost interest.

For anyone interested in the mechanisms used to control the behavior of the typical person, this is a fine example.

If source of statement is interpreted by the person as credible, he will look at it. Otherwise he will reject it.

So simple.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Copernicus


I completely agree with your observation. There was a time when the expression of theories or conspiracies was what drove the ATS discussion. These days there is this chat room attitude that comments on matters with no concern for the conspiracy, only concern for the poster and the flags that thread may generate.

Well, not everything can be proven, but it should not prevent us from sharing our ideas on the subject matter. At present, this lack of communication on matters important to us all ensures that we miss or fail to keep up with what is going on and or keeps us from considering matters not posted or turned into threads by ATS members.

Trying to inform ATS about relevant UFO matters lately has gotten to be like some Nuremberg trial where we have to prove everything we think in order to have a thought or a theory about how something happened or how it might have happened. This point alone is being abused in my opinion.

I no longer post or share my theories like I use to. While I will still help those ATS members that appear to be on to something. For the most part, these days I try to keep my thoughts to myself and read and contribute to threads that may be relevant to something I may be following or researching.

That is what has changed ATS so drastically. I like others, now frequent other web sites just to be able to "Express" thoughts or ideas about far fetched UFO matters, because discussing those matters on ATS has become more of a fight to express theories than to allow what I call, "Free Expression" on matters that cannot be proven by normal chain of custody methodologies.

Well, your posting just made me think just how much I don't share anymore and when I studied why, it is because the Nay Sayers have been elevated to a level of importance needed for ATS membership while those same Nay Sayers who challenge you and everything you post even if you were to claim we breathe oxygen for air there would be some idiot who will state that you didn't provide oxygen analysis graphs certified by NASA engineers or some such nonsense. It is that nonsense that needs to be monitored into check. If not, then ATS will be left to those that could care less about real conspiracies.

If the quest for the truth has been replaced with a fast food web site for threads that aren't really threads as much as links to articles that we could find on our own. No conspiracy, just a link. Then, there are those threads that are really just questions (?). They should not even be introduced unless your showing or discussing a conspiracy about it. If it is just a link to news, well I don't need to come here to discuss news matters, as much as I would like to discuss what if any conspiracy might exist within the article. If there is no conspiracy, then the thread to me is not what ATS was about when conspiracy and UFO stories use to be introduced as threads.

If someone found an article, suspects a conspiracy and introduces that thread on the basis of sharing and moving certain conspiracies along, then it keeps the members informed. At present, I personally feel too many don't know what is going on and don't really care unless it helps them get flags which are more important than the pursuit of a good lead relative to the category of the thread.

Lastly I will close by commenting on a UFO matter that is currently being ignored by the media and ATS. Rather than get into it here, I will provide a link that actually factually supports my past thread about "Metal bugs" swimming through steel and glowing as if they have some isotope property. If you follow the link and or do some additional searching you will find that while my thread was too hilarious for many ATS geniuses, it now has credible evidence to pursue further. I encourage you to visit the link and search out the background that will lead to a UFO located on the bottom of the gulf with activity being conducted. It will reveal much about more going on in the gulf than we have been told.

Take a look and decide for yourself. As for me, I will update my hilarious theories elsewhere, because as of late, ATS has turned into a shooting barrel where the pundits like to take shots at those that think differently or actually have a theory of their own to express. It is the non contributors that that are the problem and I see it clear as day.

Well, I am me and if others want to remain in a fluoridated coma that is their choice, but if ATS does not resume conspiracy and real investigative discussion, then I can see ATS becoming a real joke. That is a liability I would think ATS would care about, but these days even ATS management has me concerned.

Take a look at my link and if you follow it it will lead you to a report that is monumental and currently ongoing in the gulf. Since ATS is not discussing it, to me that just proves what I just wrote about. Follow the lead to the French Submarine (Emeraude) and you will be informed about an incident that occurred in the Gulf of Mexico on June 16, 2010 involving a naval confrontation over a deadly nano substance that generated a "Omega alert" and a "Directive 301" filing by French naval officials. Take a look, do some digging and you will not be disappointed unless you want evidence which no one possess.

This French Sub incident is what is rumored to have justified the movement of US Naval assets to Costa Rica and yet, no media discussion. Then, there is the Obama Executive order 13457 that is related to this story signed on July 2 and printed on July 8, 2010. Well, you better look and read. We have more going on in the gulf than we are being informed about. Since it involves UFO's and other alien matters, I would have thought someone by now would have the story, but alas not yet. Somehow, I am not surprised one bit.

This is why I offer the link and if I have to explain the conspiracy, then you probably don't deserve to know it. Take a serious look at a real present day conspiracy involving UFO's and all the bells and whistles. You could begin by searching "French Sub Emeraude attacked by US Navy" and see what comes up. You might want to take a look and glancing reading wont do it. If you don't want to read, then you really don't want to know and if you don't really want to know, then its your loss not mine.

www.nexusmagazine.com... 44

Anyway thanks for the posting. As for me, I will continue to be me even if I have to go elsewhere to speak my mind about matters that cant be proven, only discussed.

Originally posted by Copernicus

This is naturally not the ordinary government. They have no knowledge. That would be like trusting the keys to the kingdom to a bored desk clerk.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Ordinary gov't or not, they're still human beings running the files and folders. and as long as human beings will manipulate top secret infos there will be leaks or information stolen via any kinds of ways. Just like the Brits were able to figure out the enigma machine codes, used by the former Reich's commanders to send their encrypted orders.

People are totally silly if they think some secrets can be hidden forever, they are just too many spies and secret agents working everywhere for many different countries. USA without a doubt is probably the most infiltrated of them all.

you would ask, if this is the case, why don't they build f-117 stealth fighters?
Simple. It's way too expensive for other countries to build the project, few aircraft and maintain them. even in the late 70s and early 80s, pictures of the f-117 had leaked already, most enemy intelligence knew about it before it was actually operational.

If Ufology is to advance as a legitimate field then it needs to be held to the same rigorous standards as other fields.

Aside from this subject I am also interested in things like history, human physical anthropology, aviation and space exploration. I frequent websites and forums devoted to those subjects in addition to ATS. If I went to one of the history forums I read and posted a subject saying "Hitler was secretly a Communist agent sent to destabilize Germany for future Communist invasion" the other posters would reply saying "Well that is nice. Where is your proof? "

The problem here at the ATS UFO/Alien forum is that a certain segment of "believers" think they are somehow exempt from the rules of honest research and hypothesis testing. They think that a fictional government "cover up" allows them to make wild claims without any shred of evidence. It is a self-perpetuating system, someone can make an outrageous claim then have skeptics ask for proof. In response, the claimant only has to trot out the "secret government conspiracy" before making another wild claim.

We have no evidence that our government, or any other for that matter, is covering up secret knowledge of alien life. How could this information not have been leaked by now? It would be all over WikiLeaks!

Yes governments keep secrets, sometimes for decades, but most of the time we know (or have an idea of) what they are hiding. For example, I can go on Wikipedia right now and read a complete history of the Chinese nuclear program, the NSA's Corona spy satellites or Mossad's assassination program. These were vital national secrets that could not be kept under wraps. If the United States government was holding captured aliens or alien spacecraft I find it almost impossible that a credible witness or whistle blowers has not come forward. Israel's nuclear program is one of the most secretive programs on Earth (even today Israel denies the existence of it) but guess what? Thanks to Mordechai Vanunu we can see pictures of the inside of the plant and we have detailed information about it.

Where is the Mordechai Vanunu of the "secret government alien coverup"? That would be a much bigger and more profitable story than some nuclear warheads in the Israeli desert.



Yes I am a skeptic, as are several dozen (or more) members of this forum. We are not here to destroy your dreams or spread "disinfo", we are here to make your claims pass the rigors of scrutiny.

:

reply to post by MaxBlack



In my haste to finish up, I provided the wrong Presidential Executive Order to view. The correct order number is #13546. Sorry for the confusion.

Executive order# 13546, signed July 2, published July 8, 2010.

Title: Optimizing the Security of Biological and Select Agents and Toxins in the United States.

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by se25watcher
I started reading this thread in anticipation of some serious insight then you go and mention project camelot and credible research in the same sentence.

At this point I lost interest.

For anyone interested in the mechanisms used to control the behavior of the typical person, this is a fine example.

If source of statement is interpreted by the person as credible, he will look at it. Otherwise he will reject it.

So simple.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Maybe i’ve missed the point but its seems to me that your statement is self evident ergo:

If a self obsessed, delusional, attention seeking, talking head tells me to check under my bed for service to self aliens or the Anunaki. That the TPTB have used looking glass or stargate technology to alter timelines then Yes i’m going to question the information.

If that’s the behaviour of the typical person count me in. Call me cynic if you like... just don't call me gullible.

I’m not looking to debate this issue I’m simply exercising my right to choose who I pay attention to.

Your welcome to do the same and I promise not to criticise YOUR choice!

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus, you said;

Which brings me to the reason in my opinion. The skeptics and/or non-believers. They are, by their actions, preventing and disrupting people from having discussions leading forward about this subject. Look - I get it, I really do. They dont believe aliens exist. They want evidence. And they tend to come into threads with their doubts, often rude and dismissive, and demand evidence to believe what other people are believing. So almost any thread becomes about convincing them! Why are we doing this? We are making no progress. This section should not be about convincing skeptics, it should be about learning more about this subject.

And i couldn't agree more.

I said as much in a thread a couple of weeks ago.

I propose the site owners establish a dedicated PRO UFO/ET forum, for exclusive comment and threads/posts for 'PRO' (or for) UFO topics ONLY.
AND, you cannot have the Yin without the Yang, so along with the creation of the PRO forum, there should ALSO be the 'ANTI' (or against) UFO forum.

Those two additional forums, and the retention of the existing UFO forum, for an exchange of viewpoints, or a common forum for both 'sides' to air their differences, will be guaranteed to move the UFO subject forward..whichever viewpoint you hold.

As things stand now, nothing constructive can be discussed, and that is the same for both sides of the debate. Too much infighting, too much 'yes, it is - No, it isn't posts in the existing, common forum, is not doing anyone any good. It's a perpetual stalemate, and both pro and anti sides of the debate, cannot make any progress.

Originally posted by se25watcher
Your welcome to do the same and I promise not to criticise YOUR choice!

'As long as your choice is within the means of my psychosis of aliens actually existing and visiting Earth without any actual proof and yet we take it as fact and propagate it even to the wiliest researchers' is the best way to put it.

Not that you won't criticise someone's *ahem* 'choice'.

See; us sceptics don't have a 'choice'. I certainly wish it was that easy some days. But as it is we need 'proof' to see how it works. Believing doesn't cut the mustard and deadlines don't make us any better or worse.

We are what gives you every luxury you have and whilst not looking for thanks we are certainly looking for at least a touch of respect.

Take your fairy tales to the children and leave the grown up to the exploration of the unknown eh?

-m0r

Originally posted by spikey

I propose the site owners establish a dedicated PRO UFO/ET forum, for exclusive comment and threads/posts for 'PRO' (or for) UFO topics ONLY.
AND, you cannot have the Yin without the Yang, so along with the creation of the PRO forum, there should ALSO be the 'ANTI' (or against) UFO forum.

Those two additional forums, and the retention of the existing UFO forum, for an exchange of viewpoints, or a common forum for both 'sides' to air their differences, will be guaranteed to move the UFO subject forward..whichever viewpoint you hold.

As things stand now, nothing constructive can be discussed, and that is the same for both sides of the debate. Too much infighting, too much 'yes, it is - No, it isn't posts in the existing, common forum, is not doing anyone any good. It's a perpetual stalemate, and both pro and anti sides of the debate, cannot make any progress.

There is absolutely no need for another UFO forum. This is a discussion board and ALL opinions and comments are welcomed on ANY thread, as long as it is within ATS Terms and Conditions of Use.

Any topic on ATS is open to debate. Any topic. There will always be two sides to a topic and even some fence sitters. And we welcome the debate and discussion of all sides on every thred.

Having a forum for only ONE side does not produce community discussion and debate.