The ATS UFO Section is lacking progress!

Originally posted by Turiddu
UFO Hunters, yes the show where Bill Birnes believes UFOs are flying out of underwater secret bases, the same show where he claimed a US Army Sergeant traveled through time "twenty or thirty years ago".

Of course the CIA would want to interview those pilots. Why wouldn't they? It was the height of the Cold War and two pilots had reported strange aircraft flying around. Do you honestly think US intelligence agents went there to "Silence the truth about the aliens" or do you think they went there to ascertain whether a new Soviet aircraft or weapons system had been observed? Which explanation do you think is more plausible?

Firstly, if your post is directed to me, then you hit the "reply" command button.

Secondly, I don't think you are quite understanding me. These were 2 pilots who flew for the Peruvian and Iranian national air force. They are not idiots. They flew the top of the line aircraft at the time. What reason, and WHY would they fabricate stories? They have no reason to do so.

Now, let me ask you this: What Soviet aircraft or weapons were available at that time? Remember, the US had satellites at that time! So what am I missing, and what do you know? Please indulge me with your knowledge...

How can you have progress on something that relies on an external variable in order for it to progress? Plus, It would take a lot for most people to post their ufo story, or post of what they could consider ufo's based on intimidation factor involved.

Originally posted by TortoiseKweek

Originally posted by Turiddu
UFO Hunters, yes the show where Bill Birnes believes UFOs are flying out of underwater secret bases, the same show where he claimed a US Army Sergeant traveled through time "twenty or thirty years ago".

Of course the CIA would want to interview those pilots. Why wouldn't they? It was the height of the Cold War and two pilots had reported strange aircraft flying around. Do you honestly think US intelligence agents went there to "Silence the truth about the aliens" or do you think they went there to ascertain whether a new Soviet aircraft or weapons system had been observed? Which explanation do you think is more plausible?

Firstly, if your post is directed to me, then you hit the "reply" command button.

Yes I was replying to you, when I wrote the post I was replying after you but then somewhere posted in-between us

I'm not saying the two pilots made the stories up. I have no doubt they saw something that spooked them enough that they would put their prestigious careers on the line to make these claims. What I am saying is that we would be foolish to jump to the conclusion that they sighted alien or paranormal craft flying around and that the CIA debriefed them to help conceal the "truth" about these creatures.

Now, let me ask you this: What Soviet aircraft or weapons were available at that time? Remember, the US had satellites at that time! So what am I missing, and what do you know? Please indulge me with your knowledge...

The Soviets had a full arsenal of military hardware just as advanced (and sometimes even more so) than what we had at the time. They had thousands of aircraft, drones and helicopters. During the Cold War, new aircraft and other technologies were some of the most closely kept secrets on both sides. If the CIA heard that an Iranian pilot had seen a strange craft flying around Tehran of course they would be interested. Why not? It could be a new Soviet intelligence platform or aircraft flying a deep penetration reconnaissance mission. In any case, the United States would have a keen interest in reviewing the case and extrapolating any information they could. Iran has always been hotbed for Soviet intelligence operations, especially when it was under the Shah.

So I fail to see why people think these cases must be somehow related to alien spacecraft?

What we know: "A pilot of a foreign nation spotted a strange craft that they were unable to properly identify. The CIA expressed interest and gathered any relevant information."

Taking that limited information and making the jump to: "They saw an alien spacecraft and the CIA was trying to cover it up" does not make much sense if you ask me.



[edit on 6-8-2010 by Turiddu]

[edit on 6-8-2010 by Turiddu]

reply to post by Turiddu


Ok, point taken. Let me ask you this - "why did the CIA question the Peruvian pilot?" That's in South America - VERY far from Iran and Russia. Can you answer that for me

reply to post by Copernicus


The people that are holding back the study of UFOlogy, Copernicus, are actually the ones that blindly believe anything they're told and shown without the ability for skeptical inquiry.

The kind of people that look at a blurry photo of nothing and speculate on the reproductive cycles of the aliens aboard without ever ensuring the photo actually merits that level of speculation.

The kind of people who forsake the tagline of this very website to fuel the belief in their hearts, and let it conquer their rational mind.

Those are the real detractors of UFOlogy.

Yes, aliens are out there. It's statistical absurdity for us to be alone. Yet none of us give credence to the actual magnitude of space, and just how absurdly large the distance between stars actually is.

Regardless, this argument is pointless. Mainly because people who believe, and hold that belief to their very core, will never understand the rationale presented here, and vice versa, people more in line with my thoughts will never understand why those who believe can't take a step back and assess just how "strong" some of the evidence actually is (or isn't).



[edit on 6-8-2010 by SaosinEngaged]

[edit on 6-8-2010 by SaosinEngaged]

reply to post by TortoiseKweek


The United States has traditionally viewed Central and South America as part of our "sphere of influence" that other powers should remain out of (the Monroe Doctrine). During the Cold War these regions were hotbeds of political intrigue as both superpowers were trying to influence the Third World to gain support. Peru was one of these states and they had sometimes turned towards the USSR for military assistance during this era (The pilot in that UFO case was flying a Soviet made Su-22 fighter-bomber) so the CIA would have a keen interest in anything going on so close to home.

In the years leading up to the 1973 war, some Israels reported high flying "UFOs" that seemed to outrun IDF aircraft sent up to intercept them. A few years ago it was revealed that these "UFOs" were likely Soviet Mig-25 "Foxbat" reconnaissance aircraft flying high altitude and high speed photo-recon runs over Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona.

I wouldn't be surprised if many unexplained UFO cases from the Cold War era could be explained by as yet unclassified aerospace projects.



[edit on 6-8-2010 by Turiddu]

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus.....

I am hardly looking in this section as it is.

One might be tempted to ask.....

If that is the case, how can you be well informed enough to profer such commentary with any measure of credibility?

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by Copernicus


i got some of my most powerful info from the links on ats. also if you or you know of anyone that has seen a ufo/uso...anything elso is xpost facto. and again you can absolutly link all over the cosmos from ats...maybe we need an "all at once forum" to satisfy all our need to knows all at once!!

Originally posted by Breifne
BTW: How much can someone 'learn' about things that are inherently 'unidentified'?

(devils advocate post)

How much can you learn about humans from watching cars on a highway?

Originally posted by Silver Star
Yes, agreed!

At the moment, anybody offering up evidence for the existence of UFO's is merely providing fodder for the debunkers to work on.

There seems to be nobody who is willing to strongly argue the case for the 'believers' and thus half of the interest evaporates immediately as they are shouted down.

This is a bit of a 'call to arms' to those who want to speculate upon the subject.

No, what Im saying is that people who know these things exist shouldnt have to bother with convincing the skeptics. The believers are making no progress that way.

I dont care about people who dont believe. They are not significant to me. I want to learn more about this, and if I have to do that outside ATS, I will. Its just ironic to me that the greatest conspiracy site in the world isnt progressing at all in this area. People are basically sitting around discussing blurry photos still after all these years.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by torsion
The skeptics and debunkers are more often than not right in what they say on the subject so you will learn more about UFOs by listening to them.

Thats your perception of it. Mine is pretty much the opposite.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
PC is a place where you no longer need proof, your now trying to understand the point...but the problem is, they tend to believe just about anyone

Not true. People who are interviewed are asked a large number of control questions to make sure they are not just making things up. I assume the control questions are based on their accumulated knowledge and that they are not possible to know the answers to by watching videos on Camelot.

They are absolutely making sure that only genuine people with real knowledge are being published on the site. They do not believe just about anyone like you say. This is false.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Wow,
If you believe then you're a gullible idiot.

If you present anything less than an alien body or a ship then you're irrelevant.

If you have unconvincing evidence then you're a hoaxer.

Because hoaxers exist believers must all be hoaxers.

If you don't let 'sceptics' bash your thread then your'e obviously delusional because you can't accept the truth.

If you want to be able to discuss ufo's without being bashed then you are just bashing the sceptics.

????

Damn,
The kid just wants to talk about UFO's without being run off the thread on a rail. Can't people just agree to disagree on the subject and allow like minds a little time to communicate?

Originally posted by Turiddu
If this forum is to advance itself into a more legitimate focus then it needs to cut away the obvious hoaxes and new-age weirdness (The Reptilians, the Chinese Lanterns, the Stargates, the Galatic Federation of Light or whatever it's called ) and focus on using the scientific method to objectively research the strong cases.

This is why there can be no official disclosure actually. How would you and everybody else react if you got told by your government that some of these things you label "obvious hoaxes" are actually real?

But since you guys cant handle that, you are contributing to keeping mankind in the stone age.

Originally posted by badgerprints
Wow,
If you believe then you're a gullible idiot.

If you present anything less than an alien body or a ship then you're irrelevant.

If you have unconvincing evidence then you're a hoaxer.

Because hoaxers exist believers must all be hoaxers.

If you don't let 'sceptics' bash your thread then your'e obviously delusional because you can't accept the truth.

If you want to be able to discuss ufo's without being bashed then you are just bashing the sceptics.

????

Damn,
The kid just wants to talk about UFO's without being run off the thread on a rail. Can't people just agree to disagree on the subject and allow like minds a little time to communicate?

Very well written. Its a no-win situation and I realize that. But im still making an attempt.

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus, I have to disagree on one important point. You claim that debunkers and skeptics are disrupting the progress of the UFO community , toward the ultimate goal of thier work. I cannot see how this could be the case.
For a start, skepticism in of itself is healthy , and prevents the frankly pathetic "Aliens as Gods" freaks from ruining what should be a solely scientific endevour. Its skeptics and debunkers who keep the preasure on the entire community as a whole to back up its thoughts and hypotheses with evidence, physical, mathematical and forensic. I am all in favour of that, because I tire of badly shot pics and vids which can be forged and messed with, being called evidence. Evidence they may be , but proof they are not.
Second, it is not the fault of skeptics and debunkers that hoaxers, money makers, and scam artistry is RIFE amongst the higher tier of UFO speakers and personalities. Idiots who claim to be party to galactic parlimentary meetings, lackwits who claim but never proove that they are aliens from a different planet, people who scam the innocent and ignorant out of hundreds of dollars/pounds for books, and seminars, and this that and the bloody other. These people are the reason for the need for skepticism and the odd solid disproval. They are the people muddying the waters, making an already tricky problem, all the more thorny. Aim your displeasure where it belongs. At liars, cheats, frauds and the mentaly disturbed.
I believe that alien visitation of this planet does, has, and will continue to occur. But I bluntly refuse to support the idea that healthy skepticism is bad for the community. Blind acceptance of the fantastic is NOT going to take us forward as a group, but will slap us back in pieces. Only reason, logic, scientific advancement, and clear headedness can see us through the lies to get to the real cases, and any body who truely desires an end to the secrecy and BS which surrounds UFO and Aliens ought to support skepticism. It is the only school of thought which has any hope of keeping us honest as an organisation, rather than allowing us to jump on the hippy space child wagon, which is something I would rather die than see in my life time.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
My response is: Be the change you wish to see. Do not like what you are seeing in this forum: How about you present us with some new stellar out of this world threads. Be the change you want to see. (this thread and my comments sound like dejavu actually). I see people complaining about this forum - but are not doing anything about it.

You sound like Im the first guy who have realized this. Why do you think nobody has turned this forum around before?

You must realize its not possible for forum posters to present "stellar out of this world" threads that will shut up the skeptics? What picture, document or video would not be labeled as a hoax in this forum?

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by greeneyedleo

What picture, document or video would not be labeled as a hoax in this forum?

Copernicus.....

What about this one?

Revisiting The 1994 Nellis Air Force Base UFO Video

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

Originally posted by TrueBrit
Copernicus, I have to disagree on one important point. You claim that debunkers and skeptics are disrupting the progress of the UFO community , toward the ultimate goal of thier work. I cannot see how this could be the case.
For a start, skepticism in of itself is healthy , and prevents the frankly pathetic "Aliens as Gods" freaks from ruining what should be a solely scientific endevour. Its skeptics and debunkers who keep the preasure on the entire community as a whole to back up its thoughts and hypotheses with evidence, physical, mathematical and forensic.

I understand that you mean. But you dont seem to realize that there is a cover-up of the alien existence. This is not like watching some physics particle behave in a certain way and draw conclusions from it that are scientifically healthy. This is more like you being prevented from seeing that particle and people who have seen it are telling the world, but are not being believed.

I am all in favour of that, because I tire of badly shot pics and vids which can be forged and messed with, being called evidence. Evidence they may be , but proof they are not.

100% agree. All these blurry picture threads are completely useless and right now, most of the forum are about them, and arguing about what they could be, which leads us nowhere at all since they can be anything. There will never exist a picture, video or document that cannot be claimed is fake.

Second, it is not the fault of skeptics and debunkers that hoaxers, money makers, and scam artistry is RIFE amongst the higher tier of UFO speakers and personalities. Idiots who claim to be party to galactic parlimentary meetings, lackwits who claim but never proove that they are aliens from a different planet, people who scam the innocent and ignorant out of hundreds of dollars/pounds for books, and seminars, and this that and the bloody other. These people are the reason for the need for skepticism and the odd solid disproval. They are the people muddying the waters, making an already tricky problem, all the more thorny. Aim your displeasure where it belongs. At liars, cheats, frauds and the mentaly disturbed.

Much of the really ridiculous stuff are naturally put out intentionally in the UFO community in order to make people like you react the way you do. Its designed to make you disregard the entire field and make you think its made up of mostly really low moral, bottom of the barrel kind of individuals who will scam you for everything you are worth, every chance they get. Many people fall for this and it becomes their perception. You have to open your eyes a little here and be realistic. This is like the largest secret in the history of mankind being guarded. Of course there are efforts to discredit the community from the inside.

But seriously. Who is getting rich from writing conspiracy books? Do you see anyone driving around in BMW's or living in luxury homes? These guys are poor, and the skeptics community claiming they are doing this for the money are making themselves look bad. These guys would make more money from well-fare, laying on the couch. Why are they making these efforts, traveling around the world, speaking, writing books? They are only making enough money to just get by. Its not about the money. Its not a intelligent conclusion to make.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by greeneyedleo

What picture, document or video would not be labeled as a hoax in this forum?

Copernicus.....

What about this one?

Revisiting The 1994 Nellis Air Force Base UFO Video

Yes, I read in some other thread that it was one of the ones you believed was amongst the sightings that could not easily be identified as something natural.

Question is, if you are convinced, why are you not in the progress of moving on and finding out what the bigger picture is? What are you waiting for?