U.S. attends Hiroshima bombing ceremony for first time

What should the US apologize for? Japan brought us into the war for starters, their human rights record during said war was utter and total brutality. The fact of it is both cities did have consequential military and manufacturing value in their selection as possible and likely targets. The Japanese were given ample time to surrender after the first bomb and chose not to.

The fact is that every island the US landed on the closer to the Japanese home island the more fierce and bloody the fighting. It is a certainty that the attack on Japan itself would have resulted in far more deaths on both sides than the two bombs combined.

You use the excuse that we had to do it because we had to finish it before the Soviets got there. Of course that was a factor in the decision and rightfully so. Just how great do you think it would have turned out for Japan if the Soviets arrived and did what they did to Eastern Europe? Given the past history of the two nations I would say not well. Did it serve our purposes to keep the Soviets out of Japan of course it did, but it also likely saved more Japanese lives from Soviet retribution for wars past.

Do not make any mistake the decision to drop the bomb was never nor ever could be an easy one.

Should we apologize for it? No.

Should we feel sorry that so many civilians died because of it?

Yes but it is important to realize that the likelihood is that while many did die far more would have died if we hadn't. In war situations like this will never be perfect nor ideal sometimes we just have to accept the lesser of two evils. This is one of those cases. It was war, in war people do many things that are regrettable, things they wish they did not have to do. The choice was simple take a fight to the home island with an enemy population that was prepared to fight to the death for every inch of ground. Or drop a really powerful bomb and hope that they realize that they will not be able to win.

And it still was a huge gamble to drop it because, there was no guarantee that the Japanese would surrender at all, there was a good chance that it would backfire and steel their resolve.

You compare this to a terrorist attack. It was not. The target cities were legitimate military and industrial targets it was unfortunate they were also population centers. Specifically chosen for the sole reason of ending Japan's capacity to make war. They were not chosen to cause the civilian population into refusing to fight or to get them to pressure the Emperor into surrendering it was simply beyond them to be able to do so.

reply to post by jerico65


i know this might be a little off topic, but perhaps some history might shed some light on the situation for all the other 'mini' debates going on in this thread

originally the target commitee had these options to drop the a bomb

Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama and the arsenal at Kokura

so why was hiroshima chosen? we can only speculate what was said behind closed doors on the issue, but there are of course official records

Hiroshima was chosen due to its large size, its being "an important army depot" and the potential that the bomb would cause greater destruction due to its being surrounded by hills which would have a "focusing effect".

kyoto was taken off the list

Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson struck Kyoto from the list because of its cultural significance,

i beleive stimson claimed to have been there, or lived there, or said it was beautiful or something, and i suppose it is speculated his personal feelings got in the way of his abilities to bomb kyoto or want to bomb it... so i think we can aggree there was SOME human factors in the situation, but ultimately even those that were compassionate for human life felt they 'needed' to bomb 'somewhere' in japan

i can understand how many would have a problem with countries attacking other countries civilians in mass numbers during war.. however, that's just how america fights ( dirty ) ... ultimately, america admits choosing hiroshima and using a massive civilian death toll to intimidate the japanese into surrender and to have the a-bomb be 'recognized' by the world

The psychological effects on Japan were of great importance to the committee members. They also agreed that the initial use of the weapon should be sufficiently spectacular for its importance to be internationally recognized.

another good point is that hiroshima did not have any POW camps, which made another reason for it to be a good target

nagaski was also chosen for the same reasons, though i'm not sure personally if nagasaki had any POW camps, it did have schools, factories and civilian homes and what not, there definitely was the same point in nagasaki as hiroshima: intimidation to the japanese ( their military AND civilian people were not safe ), show of power to the world


why were hiroshima and nagasaki targeted?

why did the US choose hiroshima as the first target for the a - bomb?

feel free to cross check those sources, as i know they are 'wikianswers' but they aggree with what i have learned through time on the subjects

[edit on 8/6/2010 by indigothefish]

[edit on 8/6/2010 by indigothefish]

reply to post by jerico65


Every year there is an apologist for Facism, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan on this board. The A bomb anniversary always bring them out to condem the US for it's actions.
Every year I swear I'll ignore it, then , Billy Jack like, I just have to say something.
What utter BS!
Germany and Japan brought forth a great evil into the world, FIFTY MILLION plus lost their lives.
Karma IS a bitch. When you set out to enslave others, you bring down hell on earth upon yourself. Thats what these nations did, they deserved it. Karma was visited upon the nation. Death does not discriminate in war.

Originally posted by indigothefish
i can understand how many would have a problem with countries attacking other countries civilians in mass numbers during war.. however, that's just how america fights ( dirty ) ...

Hmmm....once again, I give you the Rape of Nanking. What was the reason for the IJA to pretty much wipe out the civilians there? Or the millions of Chinese civilians during their years of occupation. I guess that's not classified as "fighting dirty" to you?

Originally posted by indigothefish
another good point is that hiroshima did not have any POW camps, which made another reason for it to be a good target

Unknown to the US, POWs were killed in Hiroshima (believe they were in transit). Not sure about Nagasaki. And Nagasaki wasn't the primary target. Kokura was but was clouded over. So was Nagasaki, but they bombed them thru a "sucker hole".

Originally posted by indigothefish
intimidation to the japanese (their military AND civilian people were not safe ), show of power to the world

And to end the war. Forgot the most important part, Gus.

You really can't compare today's war fighting tactics with tactics used in WW2. Hearts and minds were not even considered, unconditional surrender was. The cities chosen for the bombs were chosen the gauge the power of the bombs as they were reletivly untouched. If I was a soldier on Iwo or Saipan awaiting orders to invade Japan proper I would thank God for the bombs. The fire bombings of Dresden and cities in Japan were meant to destroy and terrorize, all to bring about unconditional surrender. War was fought quite differently back then.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
read up about the Japanese occupation of China. They butchered entire cities and raped women by the millions. They held contests to see who could impale the most Chinese babies on their bayonets and behead the most men with the Samurai swords.

Are you serious? Should I hold YOU personally responsible for the war crimes of American soldiers in Iraq? I mean, they ARE Americans, like YOU.

Point being: A woman and child has NOTHING to do with what the military does over seas. I lived eight months in the Philippines and I know far too well what those people went through.

It's people like you, and those who gave you those stars that help set the world back a few centuries. Nice job.

reply to post by airspoon


i agree we should formerly apologize. we f**ked up in a bad way using the atomic bomb on the japanese. the citizens did not deserve the horror and problems it caused so many. i wish we never would have invented those things, they are nothing but trouble.

reply to post by airspoon


The Japanese Imperial Army decided to attack us from the Pacific Front while we were concentrating on the European front. They attacked us. The U.S. saw that a prolonged war with them would result in the deaths of millions of American lives. The unleashing of the atomic bombs was unfortunate, but a necessary evil. The Japanese are not innocent by all means in this situation:

en.wikipedia.org...

hiroshima castle = legitimate military target

hundreds of factories supplying japans war effort = legitimate military target

everything else that was in the way = collatoral damage

it was global total war , you dont win those by being nice

reply to post by airspoon



You seem to be applying 21st century smart-bomb era technology and logic to an unguided gravity bomb era situation. If we were indiscriminantly carpet bombing cities with incendiary bombs today, I would agree with you. But in 1945, that was not terrorism, that is how the war was fought. As I pointed out in a thread earlier today, dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki appeared to be the best option out of the options we had in August of 1945. Dropping the bombs certainly saved millions more lives than any of the other options we had, not to mention it ended a World War.

Originally posted by Nikolam
reply to post by stirling

 

So what do you think America should have done?

Invade the Japanese mainland as Centurion mentioned, killing millions more?

Invade China and take on the entire Japanese army, killing (probably) tens of millions more?

Continue the firebombing of Japan's largest cities?

Wait for Stalin to keep his promise and invade China, possibly igniting a war between the US and USSR, assuming he actually kept his word?

Or, use the bomb(s) and end the war immediately?

[edit on 6-8-2010 by Nikolam]

[edit on 6-8-2010 by Nikolam]

Originally posted by airspoon
The difference here is that the US government actually destroyed millions of lives in a horrible and deliberate attack on civilians, while Islam (as a whole) didn't.

Lie.

If we apologized, it would be one thing but to attend without apology seems a little harsh to say the least.

1. Can't apologize for something you're not responsible for. 2. Can't apologize on behalf of dead people, either.

Japan didn't commit an act of terror by deliberately targeting women, children and innocent civilians.

Lie.

Not so smart for a professional soldier, but that's to be expected.

[edit on 2010/8/6 by SteveR]

reply to post by JMech


I just saw this after I posted my reply. But yeah, exactly.

what would u have had us do? invade? where every man woman and child would pick up anything resembling a weapon to attack the invaders because there god told them to? let the russians do it rape pillage and kill while there at it,they would have wanted to get even for the russo japanese war the russians have long memory's.or we could have just surrounded japan and imposed a naval blockaid and starved them out and im sure that would have killed a whole lot more innocents the the bombs

as stated many times before this it was a different world then carpet bombing chemical weapons(used mostly against the chinese) heck we were gonna put fire bombs on bats and release them all over japan we were looking for a magic bullet to end the conflict and mr Oppenheimer and mr Eisenstein gave us that bullet

would it have been better if we didnt have to sure but its the past and hindsight is 2020

and if people wanan look at it in todays terms the japanese used chemical weapons on china there for the use of nukes is authorized by our current laws of war

and kudos to the people who linked the fact that it wasent the original target and thats why we hit it was cuz of weather thank you! also the reason that one military commander guy vetoed one of the targets is he had his honeymoon there and wanted to be able to go back there some day kinda trippy how small things like that changed peoples fates!

reply to post by Discotech


I personally find it hard knowing how the Japanese people are so understanding. Using their country as a test ground for an atom bomb was disgusting, and not once but twice! Every day I pray for forgiveness that a fellow human being could do such things! In fact every day I pray for all those people who say, "Its war, people die at war." It is time humans realise they are divine beings and started acting like it!

Humans fighting humans. I hope everyone person can see how wrong this is. Think its also disgusting what the Japanese did to Perl Harbour, however dropping a A-bomb just tops it really, the environment, the instant deaths of so many innocent lives. Every human being should be ashamed of what happened. Doesnt even matter that it was America that did it, its the fact that we humans can do such things to each other!

I think we all should be asking for forgiveness to ourselves for being human beings.

The attack on pearl harbor was a desperate one which Japan was forced in to, but in any case they committed untold horrors against civilians, Allied forces committed untold horrors against civilians, Germany also. No one was the 'good' guy in WW2, they were all involved in despicable and barbaric acts against innocent people and we should all be ashamed of our countries actions.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Solomons]

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


Actually Japan was willing to surrender, only wanting to keep their emperor. Japan envoys also approached Russia, trying to make peace. They were beaten and they knew it.

Originally posted by CHA0S

Secondly, you do realize if the US had tried to attack Japan via conventional means many many many more civilians in Japan would have died.

Even if a nuke was necessary...did they have to specifically target the most densely populated area? Seems rather...psychopathic to me...you guys didn't want to stop a war...you wanted to test a new technology out and cull the Japanese population at the same time...couldn't you have landed one near them first as a warning? You really don't think an explosion of such magnitude would make them think twice about continuing on? Instead, you did the absolute opposite, there was no warning, there was no mercy, there was no remorse...the US committed what is likely the largest terrorist attack that has ever occurred IMO...

Are you people high? airspoon are you high? for you being a soldier you are pretty much IGNORANT of the history of war. This mamsy pansy type of war we have going on now adays is just that...mamsy pamsy.

World war 2 was not fought like wars today. During world war 2 you had something called-

en.wikipedia.org...

"The practice of total war has been in use for centuries, but it was only in the middle to late 19th century that total war was identified by scholars as a separate class of warfare. In a total war, there is less and sometimes no differentiation between combatants and non-combatants (civilians) than in other conflicts, as nearly every human resource, civilians and soldiers alike, can be considered to be part of the belligerent effort."

Airspoon...im sorry but you are wrong. You can rant all you want about "innocents" and "save the children"......but this was how wars were fought back then. PERIOD.

Why should the usa apologize when all of world war 2 was fought that way targetting civilians? it happened on the eastern front of europe. and it happened in asia.

God airspoon you are acting like a wuss. Its just how war is. If it upsets you so much go braid your hair up and go to a peace rally. But dont sit there and say we should apologize because we atom bombed japan. Dont sit there and act like what we did was anything worse then what anyone else did.


[edit on 7-8-2010 by Nofoolishness]

All the sissy-la-la pussyfoots are the reason our military can't win a fight.

Listen up people.

War is hell. Period. You do whatever it takes to win a war. Period.

This apology crap and "oh the poor people crap" is utterly ridiculous.

You fight to win. We have not done that since WW2, because of the PC crowd who want everything to be fair, and have soldiers shoot flowers at each other, then hug each other at the end.

Pathetic.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
All the sissy-la-la pussyfoots are the reason our military can't win a fight.

Listen up people.

War is hell. Period. You do whatever it takes to win a war. Period.

This apology crap and "oh the poor people crap" is utterly ridiculous.

You fight to win. We have not done that since WW2, because of the PC crowd who want everything to be fair, and have soldiers shoot flowers at each other, then hug each other at the end.

Pathetic.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

exactly.

remember its a state of TOTAL WAR. Not MODERN WAR. when was the last time you saw militarys directly attacking civilian targets to cause civilian casualties? not sense world war 2. ww2 had 70 million casualties. 40 million of these were civilians airspoon....40 MILLION.

GET OVER IT.

reply to post by Nofoolishness


blaming Japan for what they did doesn't justify what America did. its not tit for tat. It is about rising above it all and seeing the wrongs that were done. Not comparing score sheets.

War is wrong no matter what the reason for it.