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Curious questions to followers of Jesus

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posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:11 PM
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I couldn't think of a good title to use for this thread. Jesus is the Messiah in both Christianity and Islam. Now this is just out of curiosity. I have questions for the users of the faith about Jesus being the Messiah, what are your thoughts when Jews tell you they don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

www.simpletoremember.com...

Here's a snippet from the site above.

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

Now most of you will say D is already fulfilled. I highly doubt that since there are so many different view points of God that no one is united as one but in many different camps under the same banner.

You can go through the other parts of the site. Now keep an open mind and tell me what you think of the site and the answers and questions that come from it.




posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


You are probably not getting many comments because of the fact that your first paragraph is incorrect. In Islam, Jesus is considered a profit, he is considered to be nothing but a man.

If you would take the time to understand the "Christian" bible, you would see that Jesus came to issue in a new era. He stood against everything that the Jewish priests taught. Jesus used the teachings of their own bible (the old testament) to prove that they were doing wrong. This made him very unpopular with the religious leaders of the time. You could say that he was against organized religion. An example of what he taught is in the ten commandments. Jews believe that you must live by these ten rules, Jesus taught that it is impossible for any man to live by those rules. Jesus was showing us that we all sin, that no one is perfect and no one can live a perfect life.

One of the biggest problems with his teachings is that we are sinners, we do not want to admit that we are not perfect. If you admit that you are not perfect you must admit that you have sinned and deserve to be punished for that sin. Excepting Jesus will allow you forgiveness but that is a lot to ask of someone who will not admit to have ever made a mistake. It's a simple solution to a complicated problem.

One thing that non believers are always quick to say is " I'm a good person, why should I go to hell?" If the bible is correct then the answer is "Because you chose to" Don't get me wrong, I have never told anyone that they were going to hell and I never would, I am not the judge of such things.

I see faith in this way, If I see someone who is holding a sign saying " will work for food" I give them a little cash to help out. I did the right thing by helping someone in need. It does not matter if that person makes a thousand dollars a week with his sign. It does not matter if the person uses the money to but drugs or alcohol. It does not matter if they use the money to actually buy something to eat. What matters is that I did what was right no matter what he did with the money. On the other hand, I could have just said "He probably makes more money than I do" that would have been my mistake and the result would be independent from the person with the sign.

What matters in this world is the decisions that we make and we have free will to make them.

Edit to correct my crappy typing

[edit on 4-8-2010 by ChicUFO]



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by ChicUFO
 


I don't even think you check out the link I provided. You're ranting about Jesus being perfect and that we're sinners but fail to check out the link provided and answer the questions I asked.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:23 AM
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You asked why Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I answered the best I could.

[edit on 4-8-2010 by ChicUFO]



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:25 AM
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reply to post by ChicUFO
 


I see where you're coming from now! I have a toothache and I'm reading a book for homework. :p
Also in Islam Jesus is a prophet and Messiah. He becomes more of a messiah character at the end times in Islam.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Off topic: Rinse your mouth with hydrogen peroxide, that will kill any infection. If you can get some bourbon, hold a mouthful on the tooth, that will numb the nerves and kill the pain, Don't drink the bourbon.

If you go to the dentist to have the tooth pulled, eat some jello the night before. Jello gets into the bloodstream and thickens the blood, you will not bleed as much.

I hope you get feeling better.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:32 AM
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OP.. For one thing Islam DOES NOT think Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Their messiah is the Imam Mahdi, or 12th Imam. What the media will NOT tell you about Ahmadininutjob in Iran is he is a "twelver", he has stated 1: that he has met the Mahdi, 2. it's his destiny to usher in the Mahdi, 3. that he will "vaporize" Israel and start a great war to usher in the Mahdi. That is the entire reason he's building nuclear weapons, to wipe Israel off the map and usher in the world chaos needed to bring the Mahdi out of hiding to rule the world.

Now, as far as the Messianic prophecies in the OT... there are over 300 prophetic references to what the messiah will accomplish. You didn't include ANY prophecies that show the Messiah will suffer and be killed. Now, Jews need to explain how the Messiah will BOTH be hated, mocked, beaten, rejected, killed, AND rule forever on Earth from the throne of David in Israel. Also, it says the Messiah will come before the destruction of the 2nd temple, that if Jesus was NOT the Messiah then there never will be one, the 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Also important to consider, Daniel wrote some 600 year before Jesus the EXACT day that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem through the eastern gate as a king. And it was precisely the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to the praises of the common people, where they shouted "Hosana" and waived palm branches.


* Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
* A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
* Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
* Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
* Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
* Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
* Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
* Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
* Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
* Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
* Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
* Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
* Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
* Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
* Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
* Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
* Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
* Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
* Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Slow down there for a moment! Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
First off Jesus is the Messiah in Islam. You have no clue what Islam is about yet you act like you know everything about the religion.
Actually I did include the so called prophecies you say that the messiah would be killed.
www.simpletoremember.com...

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Kiss my mother with what mouth? I did not curse, what are you talking about? And in Islam they do NOT say Jesus is the Messiah, the Imam Mahdi is the messiah in Islam. They teach Jesus, or "Issa" as they call Him, will return WITH the Mahdi, but Jesus is not the messiah to them.

You didn't address what I wrote. If Jesus was not the messiah, there never will be one! he had to come before the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD. And also Daniel foretells the exact date the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem as a king, which Jesus did through the Eastern gate on a donkey. The people cried "Hosana to the king" and waived palm branches.

Prophecy fulfilled. Or are you saying perhaps Daniel just missed one prophecy horribly?



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:53 AM
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"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel," (Isaiah 7:14).

Isaiah 7:14 says that a virgin will bear a son. The problem is dealing with the Hebrew word for virgin, which is "almah." According to the Strong's Concordance it means, "virgin, young woman 1a) of marriageable age 1b) maid or newly married." Therefore, the word "almah" does not always mean virgin. The word "occurs elsewhere in the Old Testament only in Genesis 24:43 (”maiden“); Exodus 2:8 (”girl“); Psalm 68:25 (”maidens“); Proverbs 30:19 (”maiden“); Song of Songs 1:3 (”maidens“); 6:8 (”virgins“)."1 Additionally, there is a Hebrew word for virgin: bethulah. If Isaiah 7:14 was meant to mean virgin instead of young maiden, then why wasn't the word used here?

The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars. In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos." According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means "virgin." This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11). If the Hebrews translated the word into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here.

Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah? It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman. Is it still a prophecy? Of course."

HERE

AND HERE

[edit on 4-8-2010 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I'm saying your wrong. Not Daniel. Because I disagree with the so call new testament doesn't mean I disagree with the Torah.
Here's a great website for you to look into about understanding the Messiah concept in Judaism.
www.jewfaq.org...



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Well then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not think Daniel was wrong, I think he was God's prophet. Do you remember what the Lord God said about someone who claimed to be one of His prophets who was wrong just one time?

They were to be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death because His true prophets were 100% accurate.

Secondly, Jesus preformed NUMEROUS acts that prove his divinity. Even the secular historian Josephus doesn't dismiss His miracles, he just said they were done with "magic arts".



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:01 AM
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"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." ~ John 8:28



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well let's not get out of hand here. Here's a video I would like to share with you.
Maybe you'll like it.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:08 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Are you trying to say Jesus is God? How can their be two God's or three if you count the Holy spirit. Why would God have to sacrifice himself to wash away sin?



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:31 AM
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I say just like us, God is comprised of 3 "persons". The Word of God said in Genesis: "Come, let US make man in OUR image.."

Let me ask you this.. When you die do you think your soul and spirit will either move along to Hell or Heaven? If so, you at the same time admit to you yourself being comprised of 3 "persons" as well. A body which turns to dust, a soul and spirit which move along and are eternal.

So you tell me, are you 3 different people or are you 3 "persons" in one??? God is the exact same way, and you were created in His image just as Genesis states.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well let me ask you this. Who was God talking to when he Said the following
"Come, let US make man in OUR image.."
Angels? More Gods, Satan? That doesn't explain much to me at all.
This also contradicts this verse from the Bible
then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)
How can God create man in his image then also make man from clay?
So God had a body that turned to dust? He also has a soul and spirit?
That's a huge barren on that one sentence.
www.usbible.com...
www.usbible.com...

[edit on 4-8-2010 by Romantic_Rebel]



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Why would God have to sacrifice himself to wash away sin?


I'd like to address this specifically. It wasn't necessarily that he Himself had to die for sins, but for final atonement to be made for sin a sinless "lamb" or substitute had to be offered. Just like the temporary, yearly sacrifices that had to be made for sin when the temple still stood, sins had to be atoned for with the blood of a sinless lamb or heifer. This final atonement could not have the blood of Adam, because that blood is tainted with sin.

In Isaiah 49:6 the Father says: "I will also make you a light for the gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the Earth."

Read 2 Chronicles 7, God says if Israel's sin reaches a certain level, He'll destroy the temple, exile the people, and leave them in a state of judgment. Sure enough this came to pass in 70 AD. And again, Daniel prays in chapter 9 that this won't come to pass and that God would have mercy. God then gives Daniel a revelation about the temple one day being rebuilt (Herod's temple), and before this 2nd temple would be destroyed Daniel is told several things, including the bringing of everlasting atonement - the FINAL dealing with sin.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:44 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


My cousin who is Jewish tells me all the time that Adam's sin is not accountable in Judaism. Basically he means that Jews don't believe in original sin.



posted on Aug, 4 2010 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Well it definitely wasn't angels who are made of fire, wind, and spirit. We are definitely not in the image of angels. Jesus is the body, the physical representative of God. Jesus is eternal, the first verse in John says that he is the "Word" of God. And God says the same thing again when talking about the towel of babel.. "Come let US go down and confound their language.."

There is only one God. There are no other "gods". But God, just like you, exists in 3 persons. 3 persons who are one. Just like you and I. We both have a body, soul, and spirit, but yet we are one individual person. And that's exactly how Genesis says we are made.



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