SOme of you simply don't understand what illegal immigration does to this country

reply to post by MojosGhost


Ending illegal immigration isn't pitting Mexicans against the people in the U.S., it is putting an end to an abuse used by the PTB to take away our income, our standard of living, and our liberty.

Ending illegal immigration is best for all, even the illegal immigrants.

Originally posted by poet1b
it is putting an end to an abuse used by the PTB

It is ironic that you say that.

The plutocracy has brain washed you to blame Mexicans for the economic problems we are having rather than poor management of resources.

Just because Mexicans take jobs from some Americans doesn't mean they are bad for the overall economy.

This simplistic thinking shows a lack of basic economic concepts.

reply to post by Jezus


No, the facts show that illegal immigration is a serious drain on the economy, as has been demonstrated in this thread, and the details of which I have clearly explained.

You are the one who is brainwashed into think the U.S. can absorb unlimited immigration without any effect on the economy. That is stupidity.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MojosGhost

 

Ending illegal immigration isn't pitting Mexicans against the people in the U.S., it is putting an end to an abuse used by the PTB to take away our income, our standard of living, and our liberty.

Ending illegal immigration is best for all, even the illegal immigrants.

I could see the logic in this statement. The problem I see is that the people of the US can't stop illegal immigration. It's the PTB that decide what will be done about the situation and if history is an indicator, well you know.

The only way is for something drastic on the part of the citizens of the US and to be honest I don't see them doing it. And, even if they tried I doubt they would succeed.

Originally posted by poet1b
That is quite a pedestal you seem to have place the Hispanic people upon.

If you are inferring upon the countless contributions migrant and immigrants coming from Mexico have made to America’s prosperity then they deserve that pedestal, admiration and even your thanks. These people DID help build the continental railways; they DID make up the majority of the miners in the southwest during the 19th century, their sweat and labor HAS helped turn the arid and dry southwest into productive farmland, thousands upon thousands of undocumented immigrants DID cross the border after Pearl Harbor to fight for America in WWII, even more undocumented immigrants DID help fill the need for labor in factories throughout America during that same war, and during the Persian Gulf Wars thousands of immigrants HAVE flooded American consulates with phone calls trying to enlist to help fight another war for America. Question is why is it when you are presented with historical facts which you never hear as talking points on the many anti-immigration bashing 24/7 news shows, why does their many sacrifices and contributions bother you?

Originally posted by poet1b
immigration can help the U.S., but when it becomes excessive, as it currently is, than it can hurt as well. Immigration was excessive at the turn of the twentieth century, and that has been well documented, and created a great deal of the economic turmoil of the era. When immigration has been controlled and kept to reasonable levels, it helps, and during those periods when immigration was controlled, the U.S. prospered far better as a nation.

This statement is not only just a repeat of the same misinformed garbage the anti-immigration talking heads spill forth from their ivory tower 24/7 news agencies, but is blatantly refusing to recognize American historical fact. Throughout the history of America great prosperity is always followed by the many different waves of mass immigration. The phenomena of having intensive immigration laws are actually just very recent. For example, during the early part of the 20th century a person who lived, let’s say in Ireland who wanted to immigrant his or her family to America, that person would not petition the government to immigrant, they would just simply board a ship and come to America. There were no immigration governmental laws demanding they ask for the right to immigrate. They would arrive at a receiving station, such as Ellis Island. And as long as they didn’t have any commutable diseases they would be allowed entry. Documents have shown less than 1% of people were ever turned away at Ellis Island during this time. The idea immigration historically in America was ever extensively controlled and kept at reasonable levels is a complete myth.

Originally posted by poet1b
California and the other territories surrendered after Mexico's failed war against the U.S. were never a part of Mexico, and the people of California and the other territories never considered themselves to be a part of Mexico.

This statement would only be true if you read it from a 1950s history book. After the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 the new American Southwest was split into three distinct population groups: Anglo-Europeans, Chicanos, and scattered Native American tribes. The only people who never considered themselves part of Mexico were the Anglo-Europeans. The Native American tribes had spent hundreds of years under the rule of the Spanish/Mexican governments. The Chicano people for generations afterwards considered their land as occupied Mexican land. In addition, this concern, of the Chicano people, was not taken lightly by the American government. This is the reason Washington sent many government officials to speak to Chicano communities with the promise the borders would always be open for Mexican families to travel back and forth across the border. Without these promises the Chicano communities who populated these newly annexed territories would have never been as accepting to their plight as they historical had been.

Originally posted by poet1b
Mexicans are not Native Americans, they are the descendants of the Spanish conquistadors, which are why they all speak Spanish, and have Spanish surnames.

Not all Mexicans are descended from Native American people. However, most undocumented immigrants are self-described Chicano people. Chicano people are ethnically and historically descended from Mestizos. Mestizos are ethnically a mix of Mexican and Native American heritage, the Mestizos account for approximately 60-80% of the current Mexican population. In addition, anyone with a sound mind can see their ethnic heritage to Native Americans is quite obvious in their appearance. I live in the southwest. Most of my Chicano friends can trace their ancestry directly to the specific Native American tribe they descended from. Furthermore after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo the Mesitzos who lived north of the Rio Grande began to predominately speak English, while those who lived south began to predominately speak Spanish, either way it doesn’t make them less Native American.


[edit on 6-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

[edit on 6-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by poet1b
The sooner we close our borders and get immigration under control, the better things will be.

America’s borders have never been closed and will never be closed. I consider this one of the most un-American statements anyone could make. I love my country and its historical immigration heritage, which is what, has made us a great nation. It amazes me how anti-immigration people claim to be patriotic but act contrary to America’s historical traditions. For example this new movement by the anti-immigration Anglo’s to change the 14th amendment. It’s ironic I use to think social conservatives prided themselves in being constitutionalists. However, whenever in the present the constitution doesn’t serve their agenda they are the first to want to bash it and change it. There is an important reason the 14th amendment assures citizenship to anyone born in America. For example, what happens if an undocumented man impregnates a female U.S citizen, would they propose to recognize that child as a citizen, or for that matter what would happen if a legal male citizen impregnated an undocumented female, would her child be a legal citizen? This particular issue is just another feeble attempt by tea partiers and birth-ers to continue their new style of racist attacks upon anyone who doesn’t step in line and follow the same weird cultish movement of the present day extreme right Anglo-European agenda. I wonder if anyone of them realizes some in their own corner wasn’t born in America, such as Mitt Romney, whose father was a polygamist who fled to Mexico so he could secure his many wives, where Romney was born. Here is a dose of reality (I’ll eat my hat if I’m wrong): the borders will never be closed, eventually we will give citizenship to all the undocumented immigrants who have lived in our country for decades and our country will become stronger when Anglo-Europeans become a minority. Furthermore, I think Americans should take pride when people still want to come here and be a part of our great country, we should be more worried about when people from beyond our borders stop seeking out the American dream


[edit on 6-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by poet1b
No, the facts show that illegal immigration is a serious drain on the economy, as has been demonstrated in this thread, and the details of which I have clearly explained.

I'm sorry but you have explained nothing but blind speculation and assumptions based on your own opinions.

You demonstrate nothing but ignorance to basic economic concepts.

Originally posted by poet1b
You are the one who is brainwashed into think the U.S. can absorb unlimited immigration without any effect on the economy. That is stupidity.

The issues with our economy are not the fault of Mexicans or any illegal immigrants.

You are being distracted from the real issue by the media.

You are focusing on the symptoms instead of the cause.

The "War on Drugs" has both drained our resources and destabilized Mexico.

reply to post by AmosGraber


Sorry, but the role of Mexican immigrants contributions to the U.S. was no greater most of other groups, and certainly not near the contributions of the people who founded the U.S.. They don't deserve to be put upon a pedestal, raised up above everyone else, and I have no idea in the world why anyone would think this unless they were speaking out of pure bias.

Sorry, but you are not being realistic. Yes, many Latin Americans have contributed to the development to the U.S., but they do not deserve to be on a pedestal. It doesn't bother me that these contributions are recognized, it does bother me when people like you try to put them above all others.

Immigration at the turn of the twentieth century was excess, and if you knew anything about history, you would know this to be true. Rather than repeat the propaganda nonsense coming from the politics of race primarily from academia, you should learn some history. Look up "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Look up the Steel worker's strike against Carnegie Steel Company. Educate thyself.

Immigration has been used for a long time to push down wages, and deny workers decent working conditions. Heck, they willingly use child labor even in the twentieth century.

Do you also support child labor, oh yeah, from your earlier post you do. Maybe you should rethink which side you are on.

The U.S. didn't start limiting immigration until the 1930ties, during the Great Depression. This lead to the creation of strong unions and a large middle class, and the type of prosperity we should all enjoy. Since Reagan opened the flood gates of immigration once again, we have seen a steady decline in the standard of living in the U.S., in wages, workers safety, and job security. It has been a disaster.

Edit to add link, to a decent overview of immigration laws for the U.S..

www.mapsofworld.com...

Do you really think destroying the middle class in the U.S. is going to help the workers of Latin America?

Sorry, but you are the one repeating nonsense. Everything you put out is nothing but the ignorant history taught by racist academics who are nothing but the tools of the powers that be, even though they think they are on the right side.

Wake up and stop being a tool of the politics of racism.


[edit on 7-8-2010 by poet1b]

reply to post by AmosGraber


Sorry, but the ruling families in California before Anglo Saxons arrived where from the Caribbean, not Mexico. Once again, you need to learn some history. There was no such agreement of travel between Mexico and California, as there had been very little travel between the two before the U.S. took over the territories.

Chicano is a modern term adapted by my Latinos to pretend their ancestors did not do horrible things to native Americans.

Once again you are making up nonsense.

www.mexica.net...

Chicano
A relatively recent term that has been appropriated by many Mexican descendants as unique and therefore reflective of their unique culture, though its first usage seems to have been discriminatory. The most likely source of the word is traced to the 1930 and 40s period, when poor, rural Mexicans, often native Americans, were imported to the US to provide cheap field labor, under an agreement of the governments of both countries. The term seems to have come into first use in the fields of California in derision of the inability of native Nahuatl speakers from Morelos state to refer to themselves as "Mexicanos," and instead spoke of themselves as "Mesheecanos," in accordance with the pronunciation rules of their language (for additional details, refer to the file MEXICO on this same subdirectory). An equivocal factor is that in vulgar Spanish it is common for Mexicans to use the "CH" conjunction in place of certain consonants in order to create a term of endearment. Whatever its origin, it was at first insulting to be identified by this name. The term was appropriated by Mexican-American activists who took part in the Brown Power movement of the 60s and 70s in the US southwest, and has now come into widespread usage. Among more "assimilated" Mexican-Americans, the term still retains an unsavory connotation, particularly because it is preferred by political activists and by those who seek to create a new and fresh identity for their culture rather than to subsume it blandly under the guise of any mainstream culture.

So, unless they are Nahuatl, they aren't Chicanos.

There is no way we in the U.S. will allow the population bomb of Latin America to flood our nation. We would be fools not to build a strong barrier at our border, and control immigration to a reasonable level.

This will be easily accomplished, it is just a matter of time. It was done before, and it will be done again.




[edit on 7-8-2010 by poet1b]

reply to post by poet1b




Your funny, do you juggle too?. I will not lower myself to be like a child and get caught up in the no your wrong and the no your wrong game. Everything I stated is factual, if you disagree so be it, but like I said time will tell, eventually all the undocumented immigrants who have lived in America for decades will be naturalized, our borders will never be closed, and soon bigoted Anglo-Europeans will be a minority in America. With a little luck ATS will still be around in 10 years, so until then we can only wait, to see who is right or wrong about future predictions.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by AmosGraber

 

So, unless they are Nahuatl, they aren't Chicanos.

Sorry but Nahuatl is a group of languages not a people.

Nahuatl from WIKI

Nahuatl (Nahuatl pronunciation: [ˈnaː.watɬ] ( listen), with stress on the first syllable) is a group of related languages and dialects of the Nahuan (traditionally called "Aztecan") branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family. Collectively they are spoken by an estimated 1.5 million Nahua people, most of whom live in Central Mexico. All Nahuan languages are indigenous to Mesoamerica.

Just because decendents of Mexican immigrants adapted to the US and gave up the customs and languages (spanish and/or any native dialects) of their parents and grandparents doesn't mean they can't reclaim them.

reply to post by AmosGraber


Except I provided links and references that prove you wrong, while you provided no such thing.

What a surprise you have no desire to do some research and find out the truth. Swallow that blue pill, and forget about everything.

soon bigoted Anglo-Europeans will be a minority in America.

Yeah, your true colors come out. You are the one who is a bigot.

I think you will find that Asians who will be in charge if the U.S. does not close its borders will be far less kind than the Anglo Europeans.

reply to post by daskakik


Yeah, that means that a small minority in Mexico has the right to call themselves Chicano.

The rest are just trying to deny their Spanish ancestry, to pretend their ancestors didn't do even more brutal things to the Native Americans than Anglo-Europeans. It is a total hypocritical cop out.

They are still primarily Spanish, they they are still the decedents of the Spanish who conquered that part of the new world. They have no more legitimate claim to the Americas than us Anglo-Europeans.

Originally posted by poet1b
Yeah, your true colors come out. You are the one who is a bigot.

I think you will find that Asians who will be in charge if the U.S. does not close its borders will be far less kind than the Anglo Europeans.

Talk about true colors. Yours seems to be chicken yellow. Afraid that if the borders aren't closed the Asians will take over and make slaves of the people of the US. Wake up your already slaves to TPTB they're just letting others in so they can crossbreed their beasts of burden.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by daskakik

 

Yeah, that means that a small minority in Mexico has the right to call themselves Chicano.

The rest are just trying to deny their Spanish ancestry, to pretend their ancestors didn't do even more brutal things to the Native Americans than Anglo-Europeans. It is a total hypocritical cop out.

They are still primarily Spanish, they they are still the decedents of the Spanish who conquered that part of the new world. They have no more legitimate claim to the Americas than us Anglo-Europeans.

You're wrong if someone is even 1/8 or even less part native they still have a right to claim that as part of their heritage. Also the people of spanish descent in the americas don't identify with the Spanish just like White Americans feel they are much different than Anglo-Europeans. Both realize that they are a mix of the old world and the new but feel that they are different to both.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by daskakik]

and soon bigoted Anglo-Europeans will be a minority in America

And you think we're just going to lie down and let that happen???
See what you fail to realize is we have these people in our nation who are loaded with guns and ammo, who will not go down that easy, so bring it on!!!!

reply to post by daskakik


Poor baby, did I hurt your feelings by pointing out the truth, so you have to strike out on the internet at me. Tengo su pollo colgar.

1/8th Native American doesn't give anyone the right to deny their Spanish heritage while attacking others for what their ancestors may or may not have done, or for claiming rights they don't have.

We have been winning this contest with the PTB in grabbing ever and ever greater bounds of freedom, and we will continue to do so, and the smart latinos will continue to work with us, along with the rest.

Why don't you try and stop being a tool for the PTB and join us in the continuing fight for freedom. Once again, ending illegal immigration will be better for everyone, even the illegals.

reply to post by poet1b


No hurt feelings here. Just having a chuckle because your truths just seem a little tainted with fear mongering.

I know that stopping illegal immigration is good for both Americans and Mexicans. It would have been great if it had been dealt with fifty years ago or at any moment since then but it hasn't. I think it's because you are not winning against TPTB. I am led to believe this by the war on drugs which has created a threat on the southern border. Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and now maybe Iran and N Korea they have forced the people into. Health care reform, The Patriot Act and the AZ law being crippled.

But, if you think you have been winning against TPTB then good for you.

Just wanted to add that being 1/8 anything doesn't give you the right to claim something that you would have a right to claim even if you were 100%. Land has been and still is taken by trade or force and sometimes both. So they can't claim rights to the land but they can call themselves chicano or claim their heritage or whatever other part of that culture.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik




I hear ya, we aren't too far apart. I also rail against all those other causes. See my signature, too much guilt is thrown around, and not enough looking at the real situation. We might be down right now, but we are a long ways from being out. I live in an area loaded with immigrants, and most of them basically see what I see. We need to come together. With real immigration reform, we could all be better off, if we all pull together.