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The Bible: Guide to Heaven or Scripture of Death?

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posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 10:53 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Your testimony more or less mirrors my own journey out of fundamentalism, only that I eventually gave up any faith in Christ and am now an agnostic-atheist.

It seems to me that what Christ says is more important than any of the supernatural stuff that supposedly happened (dying for sins and coming back from the dead). The idea that we are required to believe a story that has no evidence, OR ELSE we go to Hell is a bit silly, that's not something a loving God would do, it sounds more like a doctrine invented to scare people in believing.

I also think that Jesus's teachings of considering the "log in your own eye" and of "plucking out your eye if it offends" become entirely meaningless if repentance is as easy as asking him for forgiveness. Jesus was all about responsibility for your own sins and judging not lest ye be judged so it seems odd for him to then go and be judged for other people's sins. I don't know, the supernatural parts stopped making sense to me and if they have no relevance to the real world and no evidence to back them up it makes belief in them kinda silly in my opinion.

So in the end I was left with so little of Christianity that had any practical value to me that I dumped it altogether. Jesus's teachings about love are still relevant though and, as I said before, that's all that should be in the Bible really. The Bible we have today is just a confusing mess.

Speaking of MST3K, I just updated the This Weeks Experiment link in my signature


I try to alternate between Joel episodes and Mike episodes.

Edit to add:

You say you experienced God? I'm curious. In what way did God reveal himself to you and what is your opinion of other religious believers who also claim to experience their gods?


[edit on 3-8-2010 by Titen-Sxull]




posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 


I believe I pointed out parts of scripture in the New Testament that show the hypocrisy (acceptance of violence) of said scripture Vs. the teachings of Jesus. I would love to exclude the bible from the teachings of Jesus as I believe that, if he existed, he was a true man of piece and enlightenment, but what I have been taught is that the New Testament is key to learning his word.


No, you've based your comments on the Old Testament. Your statement that Jesus is "a true man of peace and enlightenment" indicates a lack of understanding. Jesus said that he was God. He wasn't a good teacher, he wasn't a prophet, he said that he was God. That means that he was either God, or he was a liar, which prevents him from being a good teacher or prophet.

If you do not want to accept that Christ was God, that's fine. But then you are not a Christian, and your salvation comes from whatever source your faith tells you, but it does not come from Christ.



I thought Jesus paid for my ticket anyway! He paid for our sins on the cross.


Correct. But only if you accept him and live your life by his teachings. Simply believing this statement means nothing, because unless you truly live by Christ's teachings, you demonstrate that you don't really love God (much less everyone else.)



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


There is a key word in that statement: Believe!

We cannot exclude someones opinion just because he does not follow the same belief as you. If so, Christians would be excluded from many conversations on many issues.

If non-belief is offensive to you and you wish to shun those people, then you kinda prove my point on how so many are quick to demonize others who do not believe what you do. I wish to express my thoughts on the issue and welcome all others to do the same. Lets let them do so!

Where is the tolerance and peace that you learned from Jesus?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
Those that "set up" the Bible included the Old Testament as a testimony to the divinity of Christ. Its main purpose is to bring in the prophecy that foretells of the Christ, his nature, and what he would do.


Not according to the Jews!

It's THEIR scripture, and they do NOT believe it has anything to do with Jesus.

The people who wrote and own the Jewish scriptures completely disagree with you.


Kap



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:07 PM
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In answer to the original post.

It is neither. It is a collection of writings used and abused through time to bend large segments of the "faithful" to a desired purpose.
And so it goes for doctrines be they religious, political or touted as philosophical.

They are all a quagmire of ideology, myth and personal viewpoints. Building ones life around any of them is to surrender who you could be.

Paraphrasing one of the passages from Matthew (?)

"The foolish man builds his house upon the sand."

For like sand holy books change with the currents (of time).



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

I did point out NT scripture as previously noted. So my argument is not completely based on the OT.

Jesus did say that he was God in human form. Then what changed from the OT to the NT? In the OT he is willing to murder, and ask others to do so as well if humans didn't follow him, but in the NT he is a peaceful man.

Isn't that hypocritical? The story changes.....and who is to say which is true? If God can change his approach as he evolves, who is he to judge those that do the same?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:09 PM
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Gday,


Originally posted by adjensen
Almost all Biblical scholars attribute the Gospel of John to the Apostle John,


No they don't.
Which is why you can't cite a single one.

In fact - many many BELIEVERS attribute it to John.

But modern scholars like Aland, Brown, Fitzmyer, Crossan - do NOT.



Originally posted by adjensen
As a text completely apart from the Synoptic Gospels, John is believed to have been written within about 20 years of Christ's death, and by the Apostle himself (or dictated.)


Yes, that is what faithful believers faithfully believe.

Modern NT scholars do not agree.
But faithful believers seem to be the last to know this.



Originally posted by adjensen
Similarly, the letters of John are attribute to the Apostle. The authorship of the Revelation of John is less concrete.


Similarly, you are wrong here too.

Modern NT scholars agree that NOT ONE of the NT books was actually written by anyone who met Jesus.

But sadly, many believers seem completely unware of modern NT scholarship. Instead they just repeat faithful beliefs they picked up in church.


Kap



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


I guess that a lot of it comes down to the personal piece. For me, it's been significant, and I'm thankful for that, but I realize that it's purely subjective. But, to be honest, I came back to the faith (I did leave for a while, as reaction to the evangelical movement in the 80s) because it just flat out made sense to me. The further I dug into science, the more I felt myself pulled into God.

Perhaps, in the end, it all just comes down to that part, the personal bit. I think that both you and I would just as soon chuck the Deuteronomy and Leviticus overhead, and I suspect that God would be fine with that. I struggle to believe that the creator of all that there is would be concerned with whether I eat Alaskan Snow Crab for dinner or not. Heck, Jesus flat out said that he doesn't. So I have a difficult time pinning eternal anything into that sort of qualification. On the macro scale, though, I understand the sense of "Love God, love each other", and that's what I'm going with.

Thanks for the new experiment. Although I'm in the neighbourhood, I'm on the wrong side of the border, and missed much of the MST3K experience until it showed up on SciFi, so I'm largely in the Mike camp, though I recognize the genius that was Joel. (To the uninitiated, these are not biblical references, though they might seem so :-)



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Gday,


Originally posted by adjensen
Allow me to summarize, to save the valuable time of the readers.
You do not believe the Bible.


Wrong again, hey adjensen?
That is NOT my summary at all.
Please try to READ what I write, OK?

Here is the summary :

Modern NT scholars (such as Brown, Crossan, Fitzmeyer, Schnelle, Aland) agree that NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who ever met a historical Jesus.

Faithful BELIEVERS faithfully believe otherwise of course, because they never bother to read scholars, they just repeat faithful beliefs learned in church.


Originally posted by adjensen
Thank you very much for your opinion. As you dismiss the entire thing, further input by you is longer necessary. Have a great day!


So, you plan to simply ignore the facts which prove you wrong?
And just keep right on preaching, right?

Bu will you EVER bother to check the views of modern NT scholars?
So far it appears you he done everyting to AVOID that.


The summary of all your posts amounts to :
I BELIEVE the Bible,
and I will ignore anything to the contrary.

Just like all the other faithful believers before you.


Kap


[edit on 3-8-2010 by Kapyong]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 


There is a key word in that statement: Believe!

We cannot exclude someones opinion just because he does not follow the same belief as you. If so, Christians would be excluded from many conversations on many issues.

If non-belief is offensive to you and you wish to shun those people, then you kinda prove my point on how so many are quick to demonize others who do not believe what you do. I wish to express my thoughts on the issue and welcome all others to do the same. Lets let them do so!

Where is the tolerance and peace that you learned from Jesus?



Please quote the text that you are referring to so that it is clearer. Thanks!

Beyond that, I have no problem with people who do not believe in Christ, but I do believe that their input, once they have explained that they do not believe something, isn't necessary.

Me: Bible, blah blah blah
Disbeliever: I don't believe!
Me: Bible, blah blah blah
Disbeliever: I don't believe!
Me: Bible, blah blah blah
Disbeliever: I don't believe!
Me: Bible, blah blah blah
Disbeliever: I don't believe!
Me: Bible, blah blah blah
Disbeliever: I don't believe!

Get the point?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

I got your point. So why did you engage this thread to begin with? The title alone should be quite telling of its content. It's late and I need to be up early so I will be sure to post the NT quotes again tomorrow, or you can simply read through the posts.

Again, I have to state that this thread was not intended to debate the existence of any deity. It was to highlight how one religion is demonized over another, based on country of origin and its desired political gain. It has been a good debate and we are all more informed by it. I hope it continues in a respectful, yet provocative manner.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by Kapyong
 


Let's see... early Church tradition says that the Apostle John wrote his Gospel. No compelling evidence is otherwise noted. Similarities in the writing style and content between the Gospel and letters of John indicate a common writer, and the content of the letters indicates that they were written at the time of crisis due to the Gnostic influences in the Christian community.

Sure, let's just arbitrarily say that John didn't write it.

Always ask yourself, what is the motivation of saying something is correct? What is the motivation of saying something isn't correct? In this case, for 2,000 years, there was no reason for saying that John didn't write the Gospels.

Oh, and contrary to your statement, not "all NT scholars" agree with you, rightfully.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I certainly see your point.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Yes, lack of faith. Only by facing opposing viewpoints and commentary can your faith(or beliefs or simple convictions) be tried and tested. Referring constantly to a book is simply a cop out. Blindly stating it is the word of God dismisses many well documented facts and makes it appear to be the object of worship itself.

What do you believe ? Do not quote biblical passages. Air your faith, true belief requires no crutch, no props, no handy dandy holy book.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 

I got your point. So why did you engage this thread to begin with? The title alone should be quite telling of its content. It's late and I need to be up early so I will be sure to post the NT quotes again tomorrow, or you can simply read through the posts.

Again, I have to state that this thread was not intended to debate the existence of any deity. It was to highlight how one religion is demonized over another, based on country of origin and its desired political gain. It has been a good debate and we are all more informed by it. I hope it continues in a respectful, yet provocative manner.


Because I am a Christian apologist. I do not appreciate your misrepresenting my faith. If you wish to make political or religious points, kindly do so without lying about Christianity.

I don't care what you believe. I have no interest in convincing you that you're wrong or "saving" you or any of that. But I will stand up to your dishonesty in what you say about Christianity.

You've said that you think that Christianity should be represented, right or wrong, in a light that makes criticism of Islam seem hypocritical. This dishonest point of view is the sort of thing that I have a problem with. If you said "I think that Islam is getting a bad name, undeservedly," I would be inclined to support you. Instead, you suggest bad mouthing my faith, so I'm opposed to your dishonesty.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by Noncompatible
reply to post by adjensen
 


I certainly see your point.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Yes, lack of faith. Only by facing opposing viewpoints and commentary can your faith(or beliefs or simple convictions) be tried and tested. Referring constantly to a book is simply a cop out. Blindly stating it is the word of God dismisses many well documented facts and makes it appear to be the object of worship itself.

What do you believe ? Do not quote biblical passages. Air your faith, true belief requires no crutch, no props, no handy dandy holy book.



Clever!

However, you've clearly not read my comments in many other threads. I rarely quote scripture, and the bit in Luke is the only one I do with any constancy. As noted, I am reconciled to God through Christ, not through the Bible.

But thanks for playing!



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:43 PM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


Many Christians believe in Christ to this day because of the many miracles that he performed throughout Judea. Everyone living in Israel at that time knew of this man because of his miraculous powers.

Even to this day, many who retain faith for a substantial period of time receive Divine Revelations and Beatific Visions. At this point, faith is no longer needed, as His existence is known for sure. At this point, the only hope that one has is that He will bring everyone into his glory. And again at this point, the only thing that remains is love, even for someones bitter enemy's.

It is the Koran that is the scripture of death. Death to Jews. Death to Christians. Death to Freedom. Death to everyone or anything that does not fall into lockstep with its hateful vitriol.

The price of freedom is vigilance. There is nothing in the New Testament to fear except God himself. It is truly the Guide to Heaven, not the scriptures of death.



[edit on 3-8-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:48 PM
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Playing ?
It is a contest ? Sorry I did not realise "one-upmanship drive" had been engaged.
I think you believe I dismiss your faith lightly. I do not dismiss any ones faith lightly. I find it fascinating. I simply encourage independent thought. For if you can question and still believe then your (or anyones) faith will be stronger for it.

I questioned. I (in your eyes) was found wanting. I am however at peace with myself. That after all is the desired result is it not ?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I have only said that I believe that the Christian faith has been used to demonize the Islamic religion, because we are a nation of "Christian values", by those who wish to gain popular opinion for political gain. And I have pointed out the hypocritical points that debunk that arena of thought.

I do not intend to offend or change anyone's belief. I am simply trying to point out how the inadequacies of any religion can be used by others to invoke a certain emotional response.

The power of faith is as powerful as any other force on Earth. Should we use that force to sway opinion to that of those who wish to use it for evil purposes?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





No, you've based your comments on the Old Testament. Your statement that Jesus is "a true man of peace and enlightenment" indicates a lack of understanding. Jesus said that he was God. He wasn't a good teacher, he wasn't a prophet, he said that he was God. That means that he was either God, or he was a liar, which prevents him from being a good teacher or prophet.




Isn't this whole Jesus story just a rehashing on the whole god of rebirth thing, its been around for ages in one form or another from some Sumerian myths to Egyptian myths and gods to even Indian gods and myths in fact last time I checked the whole "son of man" thing is actually a god of rebirth and creation in Indian myth/culture and there are some variations were it can also mean "son of god" or even holy ghost. There seems to be a coupe of these "Christs" throughout history and they all are killed and reborn in the stories. Just type in narayan/son of man in Google something should come up.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 


I have only said that I believe that the Christian faith has been used to demonize the Islamic religion, because we are a nation of "Christian values", by those who wish to gain popular opinion for political gain. And I have pointed out the hypocritical points that debunk that arena of thought.

I do not intend to offend or change anyone's belief. I am simply trying to point out how the inadequacies of any religion can be used by others to invoke a certain emotional response.

The power of faith is as powerful as any other force on Earth. Should we use that force to sway opinion to that of those who wish to use it for evil purposes?



Again, and I really, really don't know why I have to keep saying this, your complaint is with something other than Christianity.

Want to complain about how the mainstream media treats Islam? Complain to them! What makes you think that they're Christians?

Want to complain about how the government treats Islam? Complain to them! What makes you think that they're Christians?

Want to complain about how the American public treats Islam? Complain to them! What makes you think that they're Christians?

I am a Christian. I have no complaint with Muslims. I have no interest in accusing Islam of anything. It is a non-issue for me. Please do not misrepresent my faith, in the belief that it will accomplish something for you.



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