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The Bible: Guide to Heaven or Scripture of Death?

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posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Why is it that something so important as religion, all hinges on personal interpretation? Who's to say what "context" is? Why can't it be clear and concise?

What if your interpretation is different than anothers? Are their beliefs garbage if they interpret in different than you do?




posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 



I thinkyou bring up an important distiction between the New Testament and the Old Testament. I agree that the quotes I referenced to are in the old testement but not all are from the first five books that makeup the Torah.

I was involved in the Church as a young boy and many of these old testament texts were used in the teaching even though it was a Christian church.

I am simply trying to draw a parallel between what is said about Islam and what could be said of "Christianity" or the God referenced by them.


Isaiah is a book in the old testament that is future prophecy. So is Jeramiah and a few other books. What is being represented in that scripture is Judgement. Judgement from God is simply lifting his hand of protection when his people are no longer in relationship with him and are running after other gods. He is basically leaving people to their own wickedness and devices.

The old testament (torah books) were symbolic of the new covenant in the new testament. Torah= physical New Testament= spiritual



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by mr10k
 


This confuses me. Why can't I take God at his word from the Old testement? Why do I need to learn about God through Jesus? Is it because the Old Testement God contradicts the teaching of Jesus?

Is God a peaceful, enlightened man as Jesus was? Or was he a sadistic, egotistic God that advocated killing those who don't believe?

If the God that Jesus preached about was not the God of the Old Testament, than why are the books combined into one cannon?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Kapyong
Peter, if he even existed, believed a STORY about Jesus without evidence.
Just like faithful believers now believe stories about Jesus.
Without evidence.

Why would suicide bombers die for beliefs they made up?
Why would heaven's gate cultists for beliefs they made up?
Why would Jim Jones gate cultists for beliefs they made up?


The obvious difference is that the last three didn't make anything up, they were sold a bill of goods. You don't see the Imams blowing themselves up very often, do you? Applewhite and Jim Jones were clearly insane.

Peter, and the other apostles, saw Christ after the resurrection. They knew, for a fact, that he had been resurrected from the grave. They were transformed from the dejected deniers of three days prior into champions of a cause because they saw, and they believed.

They testified to something that was the worst form of blasphemy for a Jew to say, knowing full well that it would get them killed, because they knew it to be true. They'd seen it. If they had not, it's unlikely that they would have done much more than the slinking away that they did on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.

As for whether or not Peter and the other Apostles were "real", most evidence points to John's Gospel being truly written by John the Apostle (along with his letters and Revelation), and Paul's letters clearly indicate that he had met Peter, John and other Apostles in person. If you want to throw the whole of that away as "lies", then what's your purpose in participating in a discussion on the Bible at all?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by adjensen]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 


Why is it that something so important as religion, all hinges on personal interpretation? Who's to say what "context" is? Why can't it be clear and concise?

What if your interpretation is different than anothers? Are their beliefs garbage if they interpret in different than you do?



We can make it as simple as possible, taking away your interpretation bias, by reading Luke 10:25-28:



On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


If all you are concerned with is being right with God (being reconciled to him), Jesus tells you, flat out, what you have to do. The Ten Commandments? If you love God and love your neighbour, you're not going to break any of those, are you? But touching a menstruating woman, or using the wrong hand to wipe yourself, or eating a lobster, why would those have any impact on loving God and loving each other.

If you want to be Jewish, the Law still stands. If you want to be Christian, do those two things, and Jesus himself tells you that you're good to go.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:07 PM
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"The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest, who stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel." Deuteronomy 17:12 This passage clearly states that anyone who does not obey the priest/Lord shall die. I thought that God gave us free will and we were to give ourselves freely to him and his church. Guess not....


It's important that you put these quotes into proper context. This passage refers to Israel during Mosaic times, not the modern-day Christian Church:

"The death penalty described here applies in strictly circumscribed cases. He must be a "Rebellious Elder," i.e., an acknowledged, ordained sage, who is qualified to sit on the Sanhedrin, but who defies their decision and rules that it is permitted to act contrary to it. The Sanhedrin has no right to ignore such defiance because to do so would splinter the nation (Israel). If, however, he merely taught his own point of view, but did not advocate that the Sanhedrin be defied, he is not liable to the death penalty." (Stone Edition of the Chumash, p. 1028)

So, the quote you gave does not refer to just anyone in modern times that is defying a Christian priest -- Rather it refers to an ordained Jewish Sage, well acknowledged to be so, who acts as a rebellious elder defying the decisions of the highest court in ancient Israel - the Sanhedrin. He is liable to the death penalty because his actions of defiance are acts of tantamount to acts of treason that would splinter the nation of ancient Israel.

The Old Testament is very complex. You really need a good Jewish commentary on the subject to understand it properly.



"Some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you." Deuteronomy 13:7-11 Do I really need to elaborate on this? Kill you neighbor of differing faiths as they are there to draw you from God.


The ancient nation of Israel could not tolerate any Jews attempting to entice their Jewish brethren to worship idols or the heavenly bodies. "So grave is this sin that even if the sinner is the very closest and dearest relative, his victim must turn him into the court" (Stone Edition of the Chumash, p. 1008).

Again, you have to put this into context. This passage refers to ancient Jews, and laws passed against idolatry (the first commandment). It has nothing to do with "killing neighbors" of different "faiths".

"The Torah takes great pains to stress that an enticer has forfeited every claim to mercy, even the kind that is normally extended to all criminals. Although Jews are commanded to love one another, he (the enticer) is an exception." (p. 1009)

You need to be very careful when quoting Scripture, less you miss the original meaning and intent. Again, it helps to have a good Jewish commentary when reading the Old Testament to clarify these obscure passages.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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I have read many thought-provoking statements so far and I thank you all.

The original point to my OP was the similarity between the Bible and the Quran in that some of its text can be taken as advocting violence against non-believers and sinners. With that in mind, is it correct for modern-Christians/Jews to point fingers at Islam and the Quran and claim they are a religion of violence, when they have violence attatched to their religion as well?

I am not claiming that one religion is better than the other. I am only questioning the obvious hypocrisy by all religions, and how they all have a history of violence, and the texts to go along with it.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by sheepslayer247]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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The dividing line between Islam and Judism was Jacob and Esau (sp?). Jacob was given the blessing, Esau despised it. To this day both Jacob (Judism/Israel) and Esau (Islam) are at war with each other.

Christianity evolved because of Jesus Christ the Messiah. Some jews did follow Jesus, but for the most part that is the dividing line between Christianity and the Jews (Israel). Notice the 'change to gentile salvation through Jesus' came right after the stoning of Stephen. In laymans terms that was the final straw. Right afterward came the conversion of Paul/Saul.

The differences today between Isalm and Jacob are still there. The beliefs, though they may look similar, are completely different. They worship Allah, We worship Yahweh. Jesus is alive in our hearts today in a spiritual way. Islam viewed Jesus as a prophet. The relationship is not the same. A person can not have a relationship with someone they do not know.

Jesus said the greatest commandment was love (God first). His words are the most important in the entire Bible, (which I am sure he said a whole lot more than the published version we have today). Paul goes on to list what love is.

If we learn nothing else from the NT, we learn that vengeance belongs to God, and God is longsuffering, meaning he has a whole lot of patience. None of us could be God. Could you imagine with all the injustice in the world where any of us would draw that line? God allows us to make the choice whether we will follow Him or not. I'm not sure that Allah of the Koran allows that choice to followers.

Someone mentioned not dying for any faith. The Bible says "perfect love casts out all fear" and I am sure when the apostle was hanged upside down he had no fear.

The problem I have with the version of the Bible we have today is that some things have been changed in the translations over the years. If a person has Jesus in their heart, whether changes have been made or not, we still get to the heart of scripture through the leading of His spirit as our guide. That is something TPTB cannot mess with.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by nlouise]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by Kapyong

Originally posted by ReVoLuTiOn76
Christianity is a religion of peace not violence. The bible, nor Jesus ever advocates violence or murder in anyway,


Matthew 10:34 -

I come not to bring peace, but a SWORD.


Kap


So your just going to drop half a verse in and claim Jesus is out to slaughter everyone? How about you actually read and try to understand rather than prop up strawmen and ninja kick them down.

Let me help.

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Here, the word of God is a Sword. Jesus is talking about the word of God. He was talking about turning the entire established Jewish traditions on their head. The Pharasees and the 'old timers' who spent more time worrying about silly traditions than actually loving god.

Look, The very next verse:
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law"

Note that its always the younger vs the old. The new way of thinking vs the old way. He doesn't say, "I'm stabbing them all!", He doesn't say they are going to stab each other. In fact, no were in these passages does any of the objects of his lesson get butchered.

He is saying he will bring the word of God to shake things up, not stab people Wu Tang style. I think it's pretty intellectually dishonest to not look at the whole picture and intentionally miss quote something. Shirley Sherrod?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by ReVoLuTiOn76
 



Here is a quote from Revelations:

"and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works." Rev 2:23

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain
from the foundation of the world.
If any man hath an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he
that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here
is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev 13:8-10

Mark:

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. " Mark 6:11

I could come up with more if so desired. Do you see what I am saying?

Interpretation can create and entire false belief that any one religion is violent towards those who do not believe. Thats all I am trying to say.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
I could come up with more if so desired. Do you see what I am saying?

Interpretation can create and entire false belief that any one religion is violent towards those who do not believe. Thats all I am trying to say.


Yes, you're saying that you can take things out of context, lol.

I'm a fairly strict Christian, and I do not blame Islam for the radical elements of it, no more than I blame Christianity for idiots like the Westboro Baptist Church. They are not Christians and commit heresy.

So, what's your point? That people can misinterpret religion to do stupid things? So what? You can misinterpret Winnie the Pooh and do stupid things.

People are currently pointing the finger at radical Islam because they're the ones blowing themselves up to kill innocent people. If real Christians were doing the same thing, I'd expect the same criticism, but, you know what? They wouldn't be real Christians, then, just like I don't consider the radicals to be reflective of Islam in general.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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I think you are also forgetting how the Bible speaks of God himself murdering you if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.

Then they do the bait and switch that you had the choice and dying in hell because of your actions or lack of actions. So then you are blamed for God murdering you because after all, it was your choice to believe or not believe. We have free choice is the Christians argument. In the political arena the conservatives arguemnt is "Liberal"

Sounds really no different than many of us humans. We dont get our way we sulk, pout, throw a fit, manipulate, be dishonest, threaten, go to war etc etc.

God doesn't exist or behave the way any religion says he does. That is just a fact.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by superluminal11]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by superluminal11
I think you are also forgetting how the Bible speaks of God himself murdering you if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.


How does God murder you if you're already dead?

God doesn't send anyone to hell. People choose to go there by rejecting him. Telling people about a religion that you don't understand isn't helpful to you, or to them.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by superluminal11
I think you are also forgetting how the Bible speaks of God himself murdering you if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.


How does God murder you if you're already dead?

God doesn't send anyone to hell. People choose to go there by rejecting him. Telling people about a religion that you don't understand isn't helpful to you, or to them.


Goin to hell where you will be tortured is a form of murder but on a spiritual level. Like I said...no religion is right and its killing everyone of you. Some quickly some slowly over time.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by superluminal11
Goin to hell where you will be tortured is a form of murder but on a spiritual level. Like I said...no religion is right and its killing everyone of you. Some quickly some slowly over time.


If you believe in God, then it's a pretty easy thing to avoid. If you don't believe in God, then what do you care?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by superluminal11

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by superluminal11
I think you are also forgetting how the Bible speaks of God himself murdering you if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.


How does God murder you if you're already dead?

God doesn't send anyone to hell. People choose to go there by rejecting him. Telling people about a religion that you don't understand isn't helpful to you, or to them.


Goin to hell where you will be tortured is a form of murder but on a spiritual level. Like I said...no religion is right and its killing everyone of you. Some quickly some slowly over time.

So its murder if the person chooses to go of their own free will? God didn't make them be his enemy, they did that. He set the rules and the boundary's, its up each person to either accept them or face the consequences of their choices. Also your saying torture = murder. But in torture the person doesn't die. Just sayin'.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


I agree. Much of what is in the Bible is just as bad as the material in the Koran. The thing is that Christians play the "Get out of the Old Testament Free Card" which means they get to pick and choose the nice poetic parts in the Old Testament and throw out all the gruesome stuff. Even fundamentalists who claim the Bible is the direct Word of God will jump ship on the "civil law" of the Old Testament if you bring up Deuteronomy 22.

A few verses from Deuteronomy 22:

What happens to a girl if she has sex before marriage:


20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.


What happens to a woman who is raped or seduced before being married to the man she is promised to:


23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.


Reading this in context with the rest of the chapter shows that the man is being punished for adultery, not for rape. A few verses later the punishment for raping a girl who isn't betrothed is as follows:


28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


Source

So the woman has to marry her rapist and all he has to do is pay a fine.

And yet many Christians try to tell us the Bible is the main source for our system of government AND our laws...


Bill of Rights Vs. Ten Commandments

The Bible is filled with genocide and depicts God as willing to kill children for the sins of others.

The Biblical God either directly kills or condones the killing of:

All the children in the Flood
All the children in Sodom and Gomorrah
All the first born of Egypt
All the children in Jericho
All the Amalekite Children (See 1st Samuel 15)
A gang of youths who make fun of Elisha (Elisha and the bears)
Etc
Etc
Etc

The Bible, scripture of death and damnation and definitely nothing we want to base our government or our laws on.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Titen-Sxull]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by adjensen
 


Why is it that something so important as religion, all hinges on personal interpretation? Who's to say what "context" is? Why can't it be clear and concise?

What if your interpretation is different than anothers? Are their beliefs garbage if they interpret in different than you do?




It's exactly that personal interest disguised as personal interpretation, I read the bible when young and its a kids book full of story's some things make sense and are sensible but those things are few and far between. Christianity is a tool to control the masses same as all other religions, same as all other religions that will come after Christianity is gone, religion pretty much means a way of thought by a group of people, its the insanity of the day brought as first a way of life, then eventually a law that one must adhere to. It was always a way to control a population old Israel was a state controlled by a priest class, it was a fascist controlled state by an elite group the pherasies. Same as Rome was a fascist state controlled by an elite group, the cult of Caesar and the patrician the rich people. It's all make believe and religion is a way to suppress the minds of the people and make them pliable for control, it has been used for that in the past and will be used for that in the future. Pretty much any good it has done is accidental. The only thing Jesus tried to do is get people to believe in there own personal god and break the old control the priests had on the people minds, but as we know people are stupid and not really worth saving, let bygones be bygones. All sheep are lead to slaughter sooner or later either for the profit of the shepherds the elite class. Or just from being indoctrinated as a useful idiot who has no more use.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

It may be out of context as you see it. You are a strict Christian. I am looking from an outside point of view at both religions. Both texts advocate violence in some way or another. Both state that the spirit MUST be given to God or else.

AKA: Heaven and Hell.

There are also radical elements in each religion. But what we see in the MSM is a generalization of all Islam being a radical and "wrong" because of these radical extremes. We also ridicule the governments that are based in an Islamic faith.

I am trying to make the argument that the U.S.'s Christian based laws, and the Christian religion can be shown in the same light as Islam and corresponding governments.

You claim that my interpretation of the Bible is flawed. I assert that our general interpretation of Islam may be wrong. Either way, we have no reason to bastardize their religion to legitimize a war or its people.

Edit to add: How do we know that all of the violence in the Middle East is caused by Islamic extremists? Because we see a poorly interpreted video of people claiming praise to Alla? Because we here it from the MSM? What if they were simple people willing to end their lives in hopes of bettering the life of their children and that is the only way they think would make a difference? Our brave military sacrifice their lives everyday for such a cause. Are they demonized as radical Christians?





[edit on 3-8-2010 by sheepslayer247]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


I agree. Much of what is in the Bible is just as bad as the material in the Koran. The thing is that Christians play the "Get out of the Old Testament Free Card" which means they get to pick and choose the nice poetic parts in the Old Testament and throw out all the gruesome stuff. Even fundamentalists who claim the Bible is the direct Word of God will jump ship on the "civil law" of the Old Testament if you bring up Deuteronomy 22.


Yes, it was very considerate of the founders of the Christian faith to have recognized that there would be whiners like you in the future and to have determined that we only need Christ, not the Law, for salvation 2000 years ago.

You seem to show up in all of these theology threads to trot out your Deuteronomy quotes. Hooray. You've read it (well, part of it anyway.) Hopefully at some point, you'll read the parts of the Bible that don't support your biases and you'll realize that what you've cited has about as much to do with a Christian's faith as you do.

If you've a beef with Deuteronomy, go talk to the people who wrote it, who are not Christians.




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