mosque near ground zero greenlighted

reply to post by WolfofWar


While surely there are some who oppose this mosque purely because it is a mosque, I have seen very reasonable people oppose this mosque because there are legitimate questions about the intentions of those behind this project. They merely seek more assurance this project was not proposed with the intent to cause insult. I've read over some of the information in their posts and links they provided and found there might indeed be reason to concede there is a POSSIBILiTY this isn't just a building of worship to its founders.

At this point if there indeed is an intent to cause us insult and distress, it isn't overt enough to permit us to protest in a manner bristling with obvious outrage and indignation...in my opinion. If it turns out we are wrong we would be making asses out of ourselves turning down what some see as an overture of reconciliation and solidarity. If we are right and it was meant as a laugh at our nation's expense I'd say we would be giving them what they want: a public tantrum over something we are by our own laws powerless to stop. So I say let them build it and let our nosy government watch it the same way they watch old hippies in my town who attend war protest rallies.

Originally posted by nocents
Not all Muslims are terrorist, but so far all the terrorist have been Muslims.

Shining Path
Black September
Bader Meinhoff Gang
Provisional IRA
Real IRA
UDF
ETA

List of designated terrorist organisations

Your ignorance proves you wrong. Terrorism did not start on the 11th September 2001.

reply to post by neo96


THIS IS A REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL POST... lol

what is going on new nyc? world trade center gets taken down and a mosque goes up. there are so many levels of wrong here and its got nothing to with with religious tolerance. yeah not all islamic people are extremists- so straight up im not bashing the religion this is a slap in the face to every single person whove lost friends and family on 9-11 and if afghanistan. it is a FACT mosques are use to recruit the radicals it is a FACT mosques are uses to funnel money to radical groups. im posting this to see there is anyone out there that has problems with this. this has nothing to do with religious freedoms this is a about giving the extremists a place so close to hallowed ground.

I painfully read through the entire thread... Man it was a mess... Ok now that I have said that here's my opinion:

I understand the position of the people advocating AGAINST the construction on the basis that the location symbolizes the beginning of a new era in the world. Although terrorism has existed since forever, this act did in fact make the world a little different for everyone. But I disagree with that position for many reasons.

What's important to remember is the following:

1. We have to remember that the people who paid with their lives or are currently risking their lives in Afghanistan/Iraq and other wars (legitimate or not, it's not the point) like Shark VA84 (man you write so well) and antonia's husband, are doing so to protect the RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS OF ALL AMERICANS. They die, they come home injured, they fight FOR YOUR RIGHTS, FOR YOUR CONSTITUTION. This means that if you want to open a Mosque, Church, Synagogue, or whatever and the place is up to code, in the right zone, then it is your right to do so thanks to the work that past soldiers have done, current soldiers are doing, and future soldiers will continue to do.

I find it absolutely disgusting when people exploit the fact that people died in war protecting the rights a freedoms that are being denied to a certain group because of ignorance. I would love to see this ignorance out on the battlefield and see what happens...

2. I haven't seen much in terms of proof, evidence, supporting articles, etc... from the OP concerning blanket accusations that the Muslim populace and Mosques in the US are dangerous for the security of the American public... I respectfully submit to the thread some much needed evidence. Here's a thread I opened that shows the REAL THREAT TO AMERICANS with numbers and supporting evidence that terrorism is far less likely to happen than violent crime in the US and that the real threat is domestic crime rates.

3. As for the conspiracy angle, I shouldn't have to remind everyone that Bin Laden, Iran (1979 revolution), Saddam Hussein, and others, were all funded by the US government at one time or another. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight off the Russians with the Mujaheddin. Iran, well that was the CONTRA affair. Saddam was given WMDs to fight Iran. Must I go on? Point is, this was bound to come back to bite someone in the but at some point or another.

4. I think the insensitivity and disdain that some people have for the Muslim people is exactly what fuels the extremists to continue to act. Give them a reason to hate and they will.

Salaam Alekum

Magnum


[edit on 10/8/4 by Magnum007]

[edit on 10/8/4 by Magnum007]

[edit on 10/8/4 by Magnum007]

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


Very well said. I echo these sentiments. And isn't it funny how most of the media (mainstream and alternative) isn't focusing on the many others who do?

This is one of the few published opinions I've seen that comes close to what to saying it...Build the Mosque at Ground Zero.

I want that mosque built if its proponents are seeking to enshrine the best intentions of their faith. But I want it built, even if its proponents seek to rub salt in our wounds. I want it built if its supporters are seeking the common good and looking to enrich all of us spiritually, through the exercise of their spirituality. But I want it built even if its proponents seek to glorify themselves at our expense.

I think many of the people opposing this project are doing it for political gain, and they're rubbing more salt in the wounds...the wounds of that day and the wounds to remind us of what we've become in the aftermath... than they are healing.

Thanks.

reply to post by ~Lucidity

~Lucidity,

I'm opposing this mosque because eventually it will get blown up by either extremist Muslims or extremist Christians.....and the innocent people will suffer (as always).

It will be the focal point for a lot of future violence.....apparently this is what the city needs.

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

That might be a far better reason to oppose it than most of what's being expressed and tossed around.

Due to this unwarranted opposition attention and the kind of attention it's turned into (mostly negative) this Islamic center becoming a target or magnet for hate is certainly a possibility, but now the odds of other mosques already built or proposed to be built in this country are as well.

How many American mosques, churches, synagogues, and other places of worship or their community centers have been blown up by anyone, extremist Muslims or otherwise? The only place of worship, to paraphrase the attackers philosophy were the towers...financial worship, I believe it was they said.

Maybe I have more faith, but I'd say there's just as good a chance that it won't become the focal point for future violence as that it will.


[edit on 8/4/2010 by ~Lucidity]

This is being discussed on MSM now and the whole "political Islam" stuff is being mentioned. Things like it gives allowance for the terrorist attacks and all that.

What BS. Not ONE mention of anything anyone said who works for or with the mosque and definitely nothing by the Jewish population.

I state again: what BS.

Originally posted by Quaght
Speaking for myself, I feel it's insensitive of the Islamic community to build a mosque there. Their motives may be pure and they probably are doing it to try and build good faith between "us and them". But most people in NYC appear to think otherwise. Doing something because someone thinks it's a good idea is OK and all, but you might want make sure any others that it's affecting feel the same way. You say we're intolerant of Muslims for not wanting a mosque built on that site. I say they're not being considerate of the victims and their families.

Very well put.

Wish I could give out applause.

Why is it so hard to find the "facts" here about this Islamic center? All we get is rumors about:

The dates of its opening
The nefarious plans to recruit and plot evil
The nefarious name
The nefarious funding
That it's a mosque
This center even being ON ground zero
That because some 9/11 families are opposed most are
That because some Yorkers are opposed (based on polls that might just be influenced by this being made into this huge, emotion-tugging issue)

Most of this designed to to sway opinion and tug on emotion and get people outraged. But where are the facts, and where is the evidence?

Could there possibly be other motives to the opposition? If we look at who the most vocal opponents, we can get a clue and speculate.

But very few seem to be looking at or questioning this. Who's being the most vocal and thinking they can speak for everyone? Who's getting and giving all the air time?

Why are they simply ignoring or attacking people like the mayor and the residents and the community who aren't opposed. That's a good place to start.

One possibility is that someone needs a distraction factor from all the real and pressing issues we have facing us and a rallying factor for the upcoming elections.

And again, where were all these big mouths for 9 years while a hole remains at ground zero as a testament to exactly the kind of damage the attackers brought upon us that day?

Are we really going to let those events bring upon us paralysis, fear, hate, and suspicion based on rumors and the unknown make us willing to sacrifice and throw away the beliefs and the values we stand for as a nation.?

Did these values of ours crumble at the first true test and adversity?

reply to post by ~Lucidity


~Lucidity,

I believe that imam Faisal Abdul Rauf has the best of intentions with this center and if anybody is against this initiative it's OBL and his merry men but somehow I can't get around the fact that despite the obvious objections by so many they are gonna go ahead with this plan anyway.

That, to me, says a lot.

Anybody can see the potential threat this building posses after it has been taken in use. It won't take long before this building will be taken down again by force and disrupt society.

But then again it has always been a brilliant strategic move to play the wolf in sheep's clothes tactic.

Just my paranoid brain working overtime here....

Peace

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by neo96

 

Opinion:

...It shows that the ignorance and intolerance coming from most on the Right and from you, the OP, is staggering. Considering that the building was legally given the green light you are complaining on a moral basis.

All this complaining implies is that you categorize an entire group of people based upon the actions of a radical few. It is ignorance, egotism, Islamophobia and intolerance combined into an argument which you, OP, and they, other Islamaphobics, justify by using 9/11 as your excuse.

[edit on 8/3/2010 by Misoir]

Thank you, I completely agree that it is plain ignorance that people cannot accept this. Just because a small percentage of a religion is radical (as with all religions in this world) and has the most, unfortunate, exposition by the media does not make this an affront to our fallen citizens. There are many 'good' Christians, Jews, and yes, Muslims, out there.

For those who haven't seen her or don't know, this woman, Pamela Geller is one of the instigators of this opposition. She wrote the book Stop the Islamization of America. This is her stand...emotion and strawmen. No facts. Here's a sample of the other kinds of things that bother her...from her blog here....

"Another stab in the eye of America……….’Muslim Family Day’ on September 12th. Vile. Six Flags hosts the annual Muslim Brotherhood front, I.C.N.A., for Muslim Family Day on September 12. ‘This event offers fun for the entire family and will also offer halal food stalls.’"

[edit on 8/4/2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by badgerprints


There are quite a few "very well put" posts in here
What is great is that this thread allows the opinions of all sides.
Freedom of religion is very important, just as important as the freedom of speech, the right to express our views no matter what "side" we are on. ATS is here for the encouragement of that (imo)

What can be dangerous though is the NEED to control the thinking of others, the NEED to change the minds of others.

I think when people go to extremes it's because they feel they aren't being heard, that might be what creates extremism and that is what is scary to me. Some do this out of pain and others do it out of a need to control just for the sake of thinking they ARE right and there is no other worthwhile opinion. There are more reasons than that but I think it's a major player as to why people end up throwing tantrums, sometimes even to the point of destruction and killing.
I'm glad to have the opportunity to see so many opinions on here from all sides. That we have the right to express our views. If anything, this thread allows that.

reply to post by operation mindcrime

True. This is always a possibility, but I'd say more brought on by the kind of hate being displayed now than what the real issues the radicals have with our country.

I think it says a lot that the people who attacked our country to begin with, the OBL crowd, attacked the financial center and military center and not houses of worship. They made it clear that that was what their problem with us was.

Originally posted by sweetliberty
reply to post by badgerprints

 

There are quite a few "very well put" posts in here

What is great is that this thread allows the opinions of all sides.

I agree.

The reason I pointed this particular post out was that it put into clear and inoffensive terms what many actually feel about this issue and don't seem to be able to put into words.

In essence, being sensitive and understanding of others goes both ways.

reply to post by ~Lucidity

~Lucidity,

Would it not been incredibly smart to set your (superior) enemy's population up against each other in order to destroy the social structure from the inside out?

From an objective point of view, what can you expect from setting up an enormous Christian religious center right in the middle of Baghdad....???

At the very least we can expect a very nervous population.

In a country where they organize a "burn a Koran day" or "draw Muhammad day", this center will not go unnoticed. As a matter of fact I think they are anticipating a social uproar with this initiative.

Divide and conquer.....

(Just brainfarting along here...feel free to tell me to shut up at any time )

Peace

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

Would it not been incredibly smart to set your (superior) enemy's population up against each other in order to destroy the social structure from the inside out?

Sure. It's a common tactic in war. The U.S, has used it in other countries as well. I suppose the vulnerability of the social structure depends on how strong it is to begin with...the values and principles on which it is founded and based. If people fear that it can't stand up to tests of their values and principles, then this can become an issue.

If you mean that the enemy is America and that the Muslims are setting out to conquer us, sure. It would be smart. But are we not hyperaware of it? And to be aware and take the steps necessary to avoid this, do we have to act like intolerant idiots? No.

From an objective point of view, what can you expect from setting up an enormous Christian religious center right in the middle of Baghdad....???

If Christians living in Baghdad who were Iraqi citizens wanted to do this, I have no idea what would happen.

What about setting up a billion dollar embassy in the middle of Baghdad count as a similar thing? It's not religion, but...

At the very least we can expect a very nervous population.

Nervous about? The possibility of someone blowing up the center once it's built? Being attacked by streaming hoards of Muslims running out of the center with bombs strapped to their chests?

Again I would say it depends on the strength of their own values and principles and their faith in decency and law enforcement. Most of the people I know in NYC aren't too worried about this center at all. They do live with a heightened sense of nervousness about the possibility of further attacks ON the city since 9/11.

The way I see it, this is something we all have to live with and have lived with everyday, both before and after 9/11.

In a country where they organize a "burn a Koran day" or "draw Muhammad day", this center will not go unnoticed. As a matter of fact I think they are anticipating a social uproar with this initiative.

Clearly. It's not even built yet and it's already attracted a lot of notice.

As for what I call the taunting and the flaunting? Good thing it's not the majority of the U.S. population who, while free to do so, do things like this. .

Divide and conquer.....

Yes. Back to your first point. We're already divided on so many levels in this country, prime for any opportunists to take advantage of.

But I do think the example of this Islamic center is an important one in a couple of ways. One can view this as 1.) an issue being pushed to further divide an already divided people and gain support for one side or another or 2.) an issue being used by nefarious Muslims to divide and attack our country from the inside. As I said. We're already divided by our own actions and reactions.

You know, millions of Muslims have lived in this country for decades. The vast majority from before 9/11. Estimates say there are at least half a million in NYC alone. And these are the people who want to build this community center. Americans who happen to be Muslims. Americans who in all probably feel every bit as bad if not even worse about the events of 9/11 and what's happened since, who were as deeply affected and maybe in worse ways than most of us. I think it speaks volumes that the community they live in doesn't have an issue with this. It really can be viewed as 1.) a way to heal, 2.) a way to show we can get past it together, and 3.) if the worst happens, a way to keep an eye one things.

As for the other dividing and conquering you may be alluding to, maybe the threat of Sharia law? I personally believe that our legal systems and our minds are sound enough (despite some obvious, non-related issues) and strong enough to stand up to the challenge of recognizing and handling real needs and dangers rather than reacting emotionally to imagined ones. I'm really just beginning to study this portion of the spreading of the fear. Again, if that's what you're referring to.

(Just brainfarting along here...feel free to tell me to shut up at any time

)

Yeah....met too. I would never tell anyone to shut up, except maybe in jest or out of extreme exhaustion or frustration, which I am nowhere near

Peace

Peace.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Eloquent post.

I am playing devil's advocate here only to assure that we have covered every aspect of this situation.

I suppose the vulnerability of the social structure depends on how strong it is to begin with...the values and principles on which it is founded and based. If people fear that it can't stand up to tests of their values and principles, then this can become an issue.

There needs to be a common agreement on what those values and principles are. As I see it America, today, is kinda lost on what it's values and principles are. There already is a division and that can easily be played on.

Your values and principles in respect to personal freedom lost it to the patriot act, why not on the aspect of respect and tolerance regarding religion.

The ones opposing this religious center will eventually cause the implementation of new values and principles and the further loss of personal freedom. Eventually resulting in an uprising.....

Game, set, match.....

Peace

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

I suppose the vulnerability of the social structure depends on how strong it is to begin with...the values and principles on which it is founded and based. If people fear that it can't stand up to tests of their values and principles, then this can become an issue.

There needs to be a common agreement on what those values and principles are. As I see it America, today, is kinda lost on what it's values and principles are. There already is a division and that can easily be played on.

Your values and principles in respect to personal freedom lost it to the patriot act, why not on the aspect of respect and tolerance regarding religion.

The ones opposing this religious center will eventually cause the implementation of new values and principles and the further loss of personal freedom. Eventually resulting in an uprising.....

Game, set, match.....

Peace

Yep. I don't disagree with a thing you just said. That is the danger.

Thank you.

[edit on 8/4/2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by operation mindcrime

despite the obvious objections by so many they are gonna go ahead with this plan anyway.

That, to me, says a lot.

I was thinking about this very same thing this morning, with regards to the many people who are objecting to this specific location, if one's intent were honorable, then the honorable thing to do would be build it in another location.