Are Women Conditioned To Be Weak By Society?

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
Conditioned to be weak? Mmm, by the time they are 16 they should already be seeing that the only thing that should be "conditioning" their behavior and actions is themselves.

I know quite a few women that would kick you in the balls if they heard you ask that question. A well deserved kick, too, IMHO.

[edit on 2/8/2010 by Chamberf=6]

Yes, well, insipid ad hominem replies are irrelevant. Moreover, how do you know my gender is.

As women we are only half way to what we need to achieve for the Sisterhood.

1. Equal pay conditions in the same profession. Right now it stands @ 20-30% less than our male counterparts.

2. Banks: when a woman applies for a home load the bank manager automatically thinks she has a husband but won't loan her as much if she is unmarried.

3. Judicial Courts of Justice: Need alot more female lawyers in Family Law. Women (and children) still don't get a fair deal across the board. Domestic Violence is still not taken as seriously as it should.

4. Professional sportswomen still don't get equal prize money v her male counterparts.

5. Tradesmen/car dealers still tend to rip more women off than men.

6. Large corporations still continue to ignore women for CEO positions.

7. Sex slave industry of foreign workers: every country around the world has them.

8. Not enough female politicians

9. Women in our military forces are still targets by their male counterparts

Are women conditioned to be weak? Not in the 21st century but we still have a long way to go if we want the same equality as our male counterparts.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Amazing how men never seem to feel like ''prettying up'' their masculine side, instead we usually just wear what's practical.

Au contraire, mon ami. I know quite a few heterosexual males who will wear a shirt because it makes their biceps look big and their gut look small. These same men will refuse to wear a shirt because they think it makes them look like they have a beer gut when it doesn't, and will wear a pair of jeans more often because they think it makes their package look bigger. Sure sounds like 'prettying up' their masculine side to me.


Oh, and to answer your earlier question about a reason why women would wear skirts, heels, etc if not to improve their self-esteem, get cat-called, attract members of the opposite sex, or to make other women jealous: I'm currently wearing a skirt and heels because I'm headed to work and we have a dress code that requires dressy clothing. Nothing to do with attracting anyone or getting cat-called since I'll be in my cubicle most of the day and work with primarily women. (Well, and I'm married. I have no need to attract anyone anymore as long as my husband is still interested. ) Nothing to do with making the other women jealous because they can't see me either once I'm in my cube. And I prefer jeans and a t-shirt but can't wear them due to the dress code, so I'm not wearing this to increase my self-esteem.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
It's not that they're gagging to be dominated, it's that they're gagging for men to look at them in a sexual manner or for other women to jealously ogle them. That's weak.

Clearly nobody has a say over their looks ( although sometimes having a decent body requires a lot of hard-work ), so to try and ''impress'' people over something as superficial as this is a cop-out.

So you're saying that no man wants anyone of their preferred sexual preference to look at them? I don't dress like that to be ogled, in fact, I would challenge anyone to point out to me where I'm showing skin, because short skirts and high heels are usually paired with full length thick stockings in my case. It doesn't automatically mean anything, other than I wearing what I want to.

Would you like to go to a country wear the women are wearing the burka? I can gaurantee you that the women there are conditioned to be weak from the get go. Not by a natural slide, but culturally. They are treated badly, ergo they think less of themselves.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Sorry, but you're brainwashed with a lot of feminist rubbish here.
What you are erroneously describing as ''empowerment'' is actually ''boosting your self-confidence'' - and there's nothing wrong with that.

Everyone feels more self-confident in clothing that they are comfortable in; the difference being that most men don't have to wear sexually explicit clothing to boost their ego. Many women do.

Feminism? What a load of rubbish. I HATE feminists with a passion. They have taken the equality banner and twisted it into something to attack men with and are high up on my naughty list with the politically correct brigade.

Let me put this into perspective for you. Where I live, the weather is awful for most of the year. It rains, it snows, it's windy as hell and we get about a month of good weather a year where I can really let loose on the old clothing. So most of the time, I am trapped in jeans and flat shoes, hardly alluring.

The good weather finally rolls in, and while I'm tottering around in my heels like the other girls, I see the vast majority of young men walking around in nothing but shorts and flip flops, much like they do when they visit Spain for a week. They are wearing less than me, and you would have to see the way they are strutting to tell that they are getting a kick out of it. They're more interested in who is looking at them than who they are looking at.

But so what? More power to them. I don't judge them for it, because they're covering up the neccesary areas and enjoying themselves. It is not a weakness issue in the department of clothing.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

What you say is true, and from what you've described above you're not weak.
Sadly, many an intellectually dishonest woman would've dressed this up as being a ''strong woman'', when in fact it's just normal.

As normal as everything else I've stated.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

LOL.
Surely nobody from their personal experience can say that men are just as interested as women in inconsequential celebrity rubbish ?
There's a clear female bias in this subject.

That was true a few years ago, but trust me, men are catching up. How can they not if they watch MTV or similar channels? The musical aspect of that channel was replaced by celebrity nonsense a long time ago, so even if it isn't tapping into the heart of celebrity culture by absorbing the latest "news", they still end up watching Cribs or reality shows just as much as women do.

In short, some women are weak, some men are just as weak, but this sweeping generalisation of all women being weak is just plain wrong.
For instance, I can fish and make a fire, I have no qualms about killing an animal for food and I know where to get shelter. I am mentally strong enough to deal with it. If, in a survival situation, I was denied the opportunity to contribute to my own survival because I am this "weaker sex" then I would have prove otherwise, because the idea of relying on anyone would go against the grain of what I was brought up to believe. This doesn't make me a feminist, I just want to do what I am physically able to do.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Can you point out where in my previous posts that i mentioned wearing heels and skirts was to feel confident or sexy? I dont need to be wearing heels to feel either confident or sexy, im perfectly happy with myself.

You didn't need to mention it, love.
The motives for wearing such things are obvious.

While I accept that some skirts and dresses may be comfortable to wear, heels certainly ( so I'm told ! ) aren't - compared to other footwear.

As you said earlier: ''I love my heels, love dressing up nice, love my cosmetics etc.''

Now why one earth would anybody wear cosmetics other than for anyone else's benefit ?
There's absolutely nothing that can be personally gained from wearing make-up.


Of course, there's nothing wrong with enjoying fashion. Nor dressing how you feel comfortable.

But to deny that you don't wear feminine clothing or make-up with the ultimate intent of stirring attention seems to me to be a tad dishonest.

I bet the first day you were on that desert island, you'd be crying out for trainers and tracksuit bottoms.

Im not the one being dishonest here, mate.

I 've told you that im quite happy with myself, i do not need shoes, cosmetics or revealing clothes to make me feel confident or sexy. My personal gain from cosmetics would be the enjoyment I get from mixing the colours and trying out new shades.

I use cosmetics because I enjoy it, does this not compute with you? does it just go right over your head? is it too hard to grasp that some people like cosmetics, clothes and shoes for the sheer enjoyment they get from playing around with them? Does this fact bruise your ego? the fact that not every single woman who wears heels and skirts is out to try and get a man.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
While I'm far from what most would consider a "foo foo" type girl, sometimes I just feel like prettying myself up and celebrating my feminine being. I'm not out to find a man, nor am I trying to compete with other women, I'm just enjoying a side of me that rarely sees the light of day.

Sorry, but that still falls into either category ''1'' or ''2''.

Amazing how men never seem to feel like ''prettying up'' their masculine side, instead we usually just wear what's practical.

We don't define ourselves by how attractive we are to the opposite sex.

The problem with your logic is that for it to make sense to you, we have to conform to your cookie cutter standards.

Men and women think and act differently, and to classify us as weaker because you don't understand how or why we do things is unfair.

During the course of typing this response I finished putting on my makeup. Does my wearing of cosmetics to work mean that I'm trying to impress the people at work? No. It means that I do what's necessary to portray the most professional image that I can. Over the course of the next 14 hours I assure you my intent isn't to get laid by my anesthesiologist or impress the nurses in the Children's Hospital OR. My appearance to them is hidden behind a mask, etc., however when I have to speak with my patients parents, personal hygiene and a professional image can make a huge difference in their perception and confidence level. Social conditioning? Absolutely. I just do what I must to get the job done.

Brave OP

My "looks" have NEVER gotten in the way of any achivement in my life but rather serve as an "element of suprise" in that few "expect" me to be quite so intelligent and effective because of my appearance.Simple fact: when you are "above average" in looks,the world at large "expects" certain things,many studies and statistics prove this.A smart woman (or person) will realize them and develop the necessary talents and skills so that they can use their physical attributes to good advantage and NOT allow them to become a liability!

Your looks do indeed open the doors but your brains and strength will allow you to kick them down if need be. Because I teach fitness,I often chat with young women,many who are GORGEOUS about how best to expand their strength,skills,education,and training so that they are NOT "victims" and or stereotypical examples of fragile females/stepford wives/arm-candy.

Been my personal experience as well that MOST fabulous men prefer a woman who can carry her own weight both lterally and emotionally and the current crop of emotionally high-maintanance chicklets only serve as an example of what NOT to "be" with many I know! Who has the tme or energies to deal with such "neediness" these days?

A tiny tatoo on my back in Chinese script that I had done in Hong Kong via "traditional methods" reads:"Strength of mind,body,spirit..."
That's what many women I know strrive for these days and it has little or no connection with the definition of "weak..."They don't allow that word in their lives.

I define "weak" as not having the "life tools" with which to make decisions that work within the framework of what one is trying to do in/with their lives and it's an affliction that both sexes can indeed suffer from.

I don't think "society" DOES condition women to be "weak" but rather they choose that option thinking it's easier or expected than gaining the skills they need to be strong.
Just my humble opinion.

PS: I also embrace all the delights that are purely feminine and fun and am quite capable of breaking the hand of anyone who tries to take my lipgloss from me,LOL!



[edit on 3-8-2010 by irishchic]

Originally posted by Iamherefornow
I was raised by a hard nosed Marine and was never raised to be weak. There is not much I am afraid of. Maybe some women are raised like that but I was not.
I can not probably hold my own against a man if attacked but I sure would give it a try if I had to.

Funny that you should mention being raised by a hard-nosed Marine.

I was just watching ALIENS (one of my favorites) and one of the guys asks one of the females while she's doing pullups if she's ever been mistaken for a man. Her response... (and I love it) was "No... have you?"

reply to post by vaevictis


Anyone who thinks women are weak were never raised by a single mother who worked 3 jobs to keep a roof over her kids heads and food on the table. My mother was and is the strongest person I know. My wife is no slouch either. I think women have bridged the gap of being men's equals and since they have a different view on many situations, bring a lot to the table in all facets of life and business.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
The problem with your logic is that for it to make sense to you, we have to conform to your cookie cutter standards.

Men and women think and act differently, and to classify us as weaker because you don't understand how or why we do things is unfair.

There's no problems with my logic.
Men and women do act differently. That's my point.
Women are weaker in comparison to men, but don't worry about it.
It's not so much a criticism, as an observation.

Sadly, I do understand why most men and women do things. Hence, my attitude.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~During the course of typing this response I finished putting on my makeup. Does my wearing of cosmetics to work mean that I'm trying to impress the people at work? No.

Sorry, but you are wearing it an a attempt to:
1. Impress people.
2. Make yourself more confident.

You probably don't even realise it yourself, but you are.

Once again, I'm not criticising women for wearing make-up, but rather the attitudes that suggest that women are equal to men, when they demonstrably aren't.

Originally posted by Jenna
Au contraire, mon ami. I know quite a few heterosexual males who will wear a shirt because it makes their biceps look big and their gut look small. These same men will refuse to wear a shirt because they think it makes them look like they have a beer gut when it doesn't, and will wear a pair of jeans more often because they think it makes their package look bigger. Sure sounds like 'prettying up' their masculine side to me.

LOL.
It's true. There are some vain ''men'' that are just as precious and self-absorbed about their appearance as most women are.

It's still the case, though, thankfully these ''males'' are few and far between, compared to most of us who aren't too fussed about ''prettying ourselves'' up.

Whereas, the vast majority of women are extremely self-conscious and obsess about their appearance.

The irony being that if the chick is half-decent looking, then we'd be attracted to her even if she was dressed in a bin bag !

Originally posted by JennaOh, and to answer your earlier question about a reason why women would wear skirts, heels, etc if not to improve their self-esteem, get cat-called, attract members of the opposite sex, or to make other women jealous: I'm currently wearing a skirt and heels because I'm headed to work and we have a dress code that requires dressy clothing.

Yes, of course there's scenarios where dressing like this is socially appropriate.

I never said that the reasons I listed above are the only reason that women to dress in these garments.
I'm actually being specific about what kind of dresses, heels, skirts etc. I'm referring to.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
I 've told you that im quite happy with myself, i do not need shoes, cosmetics or revealing clothes to make me feel confident or sexy. My personal gain from cosmetics would be the enjoyment I get from mixing the colours and trying out new shades.

There's nothing wrong with that.

It's strange, though, how most artistic men never feel the urge to daub their faces with paint, isn't it ?

There's the deeper meaning to your actions that you choose to ignore.

Still, whatever floats you boat.

EDIT: Double post.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by invetro
Feminism? What a load of rubbish. I HATE feminists with a passion. They have taken the equality banner and twisted it into something to attack men with and are high up on my naughty list with the politically correct brigade.

I totally agree with you about the feminazis twisting the true ideals of feminism.

But you use a terribly clichéd and erroneous feminist buzz-word such as ''empowered''.
What you mean is ''self-confidence''.

Originally posted by invetro
The good weather finally rolls in, and while I'm tottering around in my heels like the other girls, I see the vast majority of young men walking around in nothing but shorts and flip flops, much like they do when they visit Spain for a week. They are wearing less than me, and you would have to see the way they are strutting to tell that they are getting a kick out of it. They're more interested in who is looking at them than who they are looking at.

There are practical scenarios where wearing little clothing is practical, as you describe.
However, I'm on about women that generally wear clothing like this. Don't tell me that there aren't women that dress this way in Glasgow on a cold December night !

But so what? More power to them. I don't judge them for it, because they're covering up the neccesary areas and enjoying themselves. It is not a weakness issue in the department of clothing.

Originally posted by invetroThat was true a few years ago, but trust me, men are catching up. How can they not if they watch MTV or similar channels? The musical aspect of that channel was replaced by celebrity nonsense a long time ago, so even if it isn't tapping into the heart of celebrity culture by absorbing the latest "news", they still end up watching Cribs or reality shows just as much as women do.

I don't think that most real men would get caught up in MTV nonsense.

Sadly, what you say is true for a lot of other ''men'', and, of course, there are the notorious ''metrosexuals'' that in many cases are just as self-absorbed and interested in celebrity nonsense, as many women are.

Originally posted by invetroIn short, some women are weak, some men are just as weak, but this sweeping generalisation of all women being weak is just plain wrong.

LOL. Typical female ''logic'' ( j/k ).

I never said that all women are weak. I've stressed previously that I'm talking in averages.

I've acknowledged that there must be some women that are stronger than me in a wide range of attributes.

What I'm saying is that women, on average, are weaker or inferior to men in just about every attribute.
I believe that their whole biological set-up makes them submissive, and yearning to be ''mastered'' by the stronger male.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
I 've told you that im quite happy with myself, i do not need shoes, cosmetics or revealing clothes to make me feel confident or sexy. My personal gain from cosmetics would be the enjoyment I get from mixing the colours and trying out new shades.

There's nothing wrong with that.

It's strange, though, how most artistic men never feel the urge to daub their faces with paint, isn't it ?

There's the deeper meaning to your actions that you choose to ignore.

Still, whatever floats you boat.

I know a few 'artistic' men who wear eyeliner, mascara and nailpolish if that counts? and no they are not gay. They must be less 'weak' than the other artistic men who may wish to express their creative sides this way but do not, as society frowns upon it, or maybe they think it would eliminate their chances of finding a woman? so they repress their naturally creative tendencies.

You are ignoring the truth of the matter which is plain and simple.

Yes there is 'some' women who act in certain ways and dress in certain ways to attract men. There is also 'some' men who are guilty of doing exactly the same thing, and in both sexes there does exist 'some' who are confident enough in themselves to exist in their day to day lifes not dressing or acting in ways soley to attract a member of the opposite sex.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


The problem here is that you're taking your own attitude towards clothing and assuming that most men have the same attitude about it. Then you take your perception of womens clothing and makeup and assume that women only wear those things for the reasons that make sense to you. What you aren't realizing here is that your perceptions aren't true in every case and aren't necessarily true in most cases. Several times you've listed the only three reasons why you believe women wear certain things. The world isn't nearly so black and white as that.

Men and women can both behave in a shallow manner. That doesn't mean most do. Men and women can both be weak, no one gender has a monopoly on that. Both do things to attract the opposite sex. Both have their celebrity idols, regardless of what you want to call it. Taking one motive that one person has and trying to say all or most of that persons gender has the same motive just doesn't make sense.

Edit: inserted missing words in last sentence.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Jenna]

reply to post by ShadowAngel85


I like women, in fact I married one, but ...

If women believe they are equal, then I guess they don't need affirmative action.

Women's sports is successful as women's sports, but they cannot compete with men. The top female tennis player Billie Jean King was just able to beat a has-been-who-was-never-very-good Bobby Riggs. Watch Roger Federer play and tell me if a woman would win one out of 100 games against him. Answer: no. An average female Olympic athlete's grip strength is less than an average man's grip strength.

Danica Patrick wins fair and square. Race driving is not a test of pure strength or quickness. I'm sure endurance and steadiness are also important, areas where women tend to excel.

Women can certainly compete with men in intellectual activities like game design. To the extent that it's story-telling and fantasy, that is an area where women are strong.
Statistically, do not do as well as men at the very highest levels of quantitative work. Lawrence Summers' comments that got him fired as President of Harvard were correct. As one gets to higher level mathematics, women become more and more rare, and it's not that all their parents discourage them from excelling, or that they're all trying to act dumb to appeal to boys. Women can be extremely competitive, with men and with each other, so I don't buy the "playing dumb" argument for many of them. And they wouldn't have been "in the picture" to begin with (say, by 10th grade) or getting A's in all their other advanced subjects, if they did not have parental support and encouragement from home.

Women are better than men at verbal subjects and at following group activities. Schools are designed for people who are good at these, especially in early grades, and that means girls do much better than boys. In fact one cannot get anywhere without the verbal skills. Typically, "gifted and talented" programs require good verbal skills even for gifted math classes, but they do not require good math skills for gifted verbal-related classes. So boys get shut out via systematic discrimination. As parents it is good that we recognized this and were able to overcome the obstacles placed in our sons' paths by this system, but it took effort and luck. It is manifestly unfair to boys.

reply to post by bluemirage5




More of these justifications again, they don't make sense and most just plain don't exist.

1. Equal pay conditions in the same profession. Right now it stands @ 20-30% less than our male counterparts.

I call shenanigans on this, its not even a real figure but made up to serve a ideology/ideal, there is no such thing as equal pay even among males in the same profession its a structure, usually in pyramid form, and one cant even go by averages on this because none of us do that exact same thing. In fact its probably easier now a day for a female to find work then males, just look around in real life, so unless you want to go mine for minerals or get shot at for money, then most jobs cater to females more then males. More bull made up by by people who want more moneys for some sort of ideology or something. Feminist bull makes me think that they have it to easy in this society if they have time to believe this.

2. Banks: when a woman applies for a home load the bank manager automatically thinks she has a husband but won't loan her as much if she is unmarried.

Another bull statement, a bank will most likely give loans to anyone that they can as long as they can turn a profit in interest. Male- Female does not matter and the reason why they would easier give a loan to a married couple is, simple married people have more things on the line like kids and other things therefore they will pay.

3. Judicial Courts of Justice: Need alot more female lawyers in Family Law. Women (and children) still don't get a fair deal across the board. Domestic Violence is still not taken as seriously as it should.

This is just plain stupid. Females want to be lawyers then go ahead you have as much a right and chance as a male. Wrong domestic violence is taken seriously, but don't expect a system that is flawed to give you everything on a silver plater.

4. Professional sportswomen still don't get equal prize money v her male counterparts.

Another stupid statement, professional sports people get paid by popularity of themselves and the sport they do. You say males get paid more, in most cases it's not even about performance, but on draw of customers to pay for watching said sport. Most males are willing to pay to watch sports, therefore male sports have a bigger pay base then female sports base. It comes down to that if females have as big a draw to said sports as males then they will get paid as much as males...its not about male or female in anything...its usually about the money.

5. Tradesmen/car dealers still tend to rip more women off than men.

Tradesmen/car dealers rip anyone off they can that does not know about what a car or labor is worth. I never bought a car from a car dealership only from auctions or people therefore I never got ripped off, and I am not even a car/mechanic type of guy....If females have trouble with this ask a male who might know about this...quit whining when you don't get as good a deal as when a man works for your interest then against your interest. It's business and only a female would whine about this, most guys expect to be ripped off when going to buy a car it's natural the way the process works.

6. Large corporations still continue to ignore women for CEO positions.

Does not exist... mostly because most women can get said CEO to pay for them, doing all the work is not required. But if any want to become CEO shouldn't be to hard some schooling, and knowing the right people and bam your in.

7. Sex slave industry of foreign workers: every country around the world has them.

Affirmative every country around the world has them. This makes sense, and it makes sense that they would be mostly female. For good or bad sex sells.... and who would pay to have sex with a male, there is no market for that or if there is it's probably small. Sex is usually associated with females. Cant have the good without the bad.

8. Not enough female politicians

Then more females should go into politics.

9. Women in our military forces are still targets by their male counterparts

Some are, some are not, most don't like being shot and want to get out of the front lines by any means necessary. When under pressure people react in primal ways both males and females, the military ain't all like it's portrayed on tv by the military.

Weak?

More than half the women have more balls than men do nowadays.

It is quite frightening

Originally posted by superluminal11
Weak?

More than half the women have more balls than men do nowadays.

It is quite frightening

What the hell does that even mean, are you saying females literally have male genitalia or something other, what are males are not males how can that be, or are you saying they no longer have a function in this society, which is just stupid. This whole dam post makes no sense its unsane.