Originally posted by Hammerite
Helen, don't you realize only the Devil allows Free Will?

If you serve god you follow one path, one narrow narrow path.

If you do anything else that isn't "God's" way you serve Satan.

That includes "masturbation, drinking, eating meat on tuesdays, sex in any position but "missionary", and an endless list of morals almost no body has heard of."

Satan is the representation of "Freewill" because of course in a Monarchy, Freewill is considered to be too chaotic, and in a way it is, but we're doing alright. Servatude is what Kings like, so of course you must "serve" God, and of course servatude is more orderly, but the difference between order and chaos is so minimal in reality, Satan was merely a way of scaring people away from freedom, and to serving the church.

Hell the only reason Satan is called Lucifer, is because of that "Luciferian" movement in what? 1400s? 1100s? Sometime then, which I know little about but it's worth looking up.

The Church didn't like what Luciferos *whatever his name was exactly* was doing, I think he was a bishop? Priest? Help here...anyways, they didn't like what he was doing, and they didn't like the old knowledge of "Lucifer" or as we call it today, Mercury, and so they decided what better way to make people forget them then to change the meaning of Lucifer from its actual meaning, which is light, to the name of the Devil.

Mercury forms a hexagon in the sky and this pattern had been recorded down through the ages by astronomers, so no wonder the Hexagram is now considered "evil".

I'm sorry, I just don't think my Savior is anyone but me, and especially not someone who's been so corrupted by the politics of the Church, it is hard to understand WHAT the hell Jesus ever was trying to really say.

God gave us free will. Voluntary or uncoerced. The bible states that Lucifer comes as an angel of light, so that he may decieve the very elect. How can one save himself when he had no control in being born and will have no control when death comes to take him? Jesus came to redeem us for our sins. In the old testament, some angels rebelled and came to earth. They looked at the farmers daughters and took them as wives. They had hybrid children that were basically ravenous beasts. The world was beyond tainted and it was destroyed. God actually grieved at what had to be done. Even had compassion for devils and demons. Jesus came so the world wouldn't be destroyed like that again. The universe is so amazing, I without a doubt believe God was Jesus and at the exact same time was separate. Can you understand the compassion that was in the man? Before he died, he looked to heaven and said forgive them father, they know not what they do. Nails in his hands and thorns dug into his skull. When he died, a roman centaurian knew they had killed the Son of God. Apparently the sky thundered and earth shook.

Um, you say God Gave us Freewill? But then he punishes us for using it.

That's no different than the Government saying (Perhaps you have read 1984).

"We ask that you willingly give us your money to aid the war effort." But then they'll kill you if you don't.

Is it free will, to be ABLE to choose to not accept Jesus as your savior, but then go to Hell for excersising your "God given" freewill?

Not really. When we do the wrong thing, we really end up punishing ourselves. I know from experience.

So...all of a sudden it is the wrong thing to not follow Jesus?

Actually I'll say two things tough, "Jesus did not die for my sins because I have not sinned".

Although I was just thinking, "Jesus died for our sins" could equally simply mean. (Jesus died because we killed him).

There is no where in the bible, that says anything else, it says "Jesus died for our sins" and that's all it says.

Christians merely make this out as saying "Jesus died to save us" or some thing, but that's not what it says. It says "Jesus died for our sins." But for in english can equally be an alternative for because. Such as "We must fight, for if we don't we die."

So I wonder now, is that whole "Jesus died for our sins" just a big guilt trip, blaming us for killing Jesus. Which we did, we being humanity and such.

But technically it was the "Jews" though I heard just recently it could not have been the jews who tried jesus because they never would have held a trial at night on (the sabbath?) anywas never at night anways, but that depends, when was Jesus tried if ever?

Anyways.

That's a good thing to think about:

"Jesus died for our sins" -- to save us.

"Jesus died for our sins" -- you killed him you bastards.

[Edited on 14-3-2003 by Hammerite]

Originally posted by Jeremiah

Originally posted by Truth

I dont just believe but (know) what miracles ive seen of him, not allah, not buddhist, but
jesus christ.

you have no idea what ure talking about

allah = arabic word for God, take an arabic christian bible and read it
buddhist? mmmk lol

3rd, you have not seen any miracles at all, u heard of them and red about them, you wish you had seen them

4th to answer the topic, jesus did not die for anyones sins

why? its a contradition

bible says "god is omnipotent"

then u learn that his only son had to go through terible pain and sufering so that humanity would be cleared of sins

this is a contradition

because if its true god is not omnipotent, if it is true, then the bible is lying by saying god is omnipotent, he clearly is not

just as he created the phisical universe he can erase humanitys sins

bible is gods word huh? wel for many christians they circle things from both old and new testament, things that suit them rite

you either folow your religion or you dont

you cant follow a part of it

"jesus died for my sins" is i think the bigges cause why we have so many murders here in the u.s.

no1 replies, how nice

just as i thought, and expected nothing less.

"" You have not seen miracles just heard of them ""

your dead wrong, iv seen stuff nobody can explain, you hav neither wtnessed
my life nor what my eyes have seen, nor the miracles ive seen, but you will at the judgement seat.


igrew up 18 strait years sinning and not even knowing anything, even up until 18
idid not know what the word christian meant.

im 21 now. so dont tell me anything about me and why i believe.


You will deny and deny because of a lifestyle that offends him, knowing, if you embrace him you will
have to follow his ways, instead you reject him on acount of an excuse.


even after 2000 years and more of mirales have been provided, even after many prophets have predicted his coming, even after
12 apostles gave account, evenafter im sitting here dead serious telling you ive witnessed major miracles of him.


You willl not just say, "wow maybee this kid is right, al these miracles are amazing"

No. youll reject him because you hold yourself back from believing in him. he will give a sign to the world
soon enough and this will be the last chance for humanity, so mark my words.



"" Allah means god ""

i know that, but do not care, allah preaches contrary to my lord. i did not dream of (allah) in a blooded hallway, i did not witness
miracles of (allah), allah has produced nothing but false teachings, mixing truth with lies.



"" if we have free will, how come we go to hell be denying jesus ""


because god has provided prophets frm the ot, jesus has wrked miracles, hes provided the shroud of turon, tons
of other historical miracles to mandkind ect..


Like i said, would (you) let smeone in your house spend even the weekend with you who (hated) you?

f course not, but common sense does not tell you this.

also what in the world does sending evil to hel have to do ith free will?



if thats the case than god should of let (hitler) in heaven for acts of (free) will, that is nonsense.



we have free will to be evil, deny god, and thoe who do witout cause will not spend eternity
with him who (hate) him.


(common) sense.


God bless, peace.

Btw, antichrist, that user offends me deeply.

say your name is gregory, how would you like it if i cae in with the name "antigregory"?


thats the same case with us, you could care less why we believe in jesus and just shove your
ignorance on us with this username which you use just to stir up trouble, or be (rebelious).



its not called for.

peace.

Originally posted by Truth

just as i thought, and expected nothing less.

"" You have not seen miracles just heard of them ""

your dead wrong, iv seen stuff nobody can explain, you hav neither wtnessed
my life nor what my eyes have seen, nor the miracles ive seen, but you will at the judgement seat.


igrew up 18 strait years sinning and not even knowing anything, even up until 18
idid not know what the word christian meant.

im 21 now. so dont tell me anything about me and why i believe.


You will deny and deny because of a lifestyle that offends him, knowing, if you embrace him you will
have to follow his ways, instead you reject him on acount of an excuse.


even after 2000 years and more of mirales have been provided, even after many prophets have predicted his coming, even after
12 apostles gave account, evenafter im sitting here dead serious telling you ive witnessed major miracles of him.


You willl not just say, "wow maybee this kid is right, al these miracles are amazing"

No. youll reject him because you hold yourself back from believing in him. he will give a sign to the world
soon enough and this will be the last chance for humanity, so mark my words.



"" Allah means god ""

i know that, but do not care, allah preaches contrary to my lord. i did not dream of (allah) in a blooded hallway, i did not witness
miracles of (allah), allah has produced nothing but false teachings, mixing truth with lies.



"" if we have free will, how come we go to hell be denying jesus ""


because god has provided prophets frm the ot, jesus has wrked miracles, hes provided the shroud of turon, tons
of other historical miracles to mandkind ect..


Like i said, would (you) let smeone in your house spend even the weekend with you who (hated) you?

f course not, but common sense does not tell you this.

also what in the world does sending evil to hel have to do ith free will?



if thats the case than god should of let (hitler) in heaven for acts of (free) will, that is nonsense.



we have free will to be evil, deny god, and thoe who do witout cause will not spend eternity
with him who (hate) him.


(common) sense.


God bless, peace.

you havent witnessed anything, sorry

you wish u had and you hope for it, you hope for a sign, but u dont see it, you only dream my friend, and maybe not even that

another thing,

i have no idea why you are so angry at islam, i thought u were christian? love your enemies? mixing truths with lies? come on

even bible scholars admit that there is a huge chance the bible has been changed tons of times threwout history

your like thsoe christians if u show them something contradictory otu of the bible, they immediately post a verse out of the Koran

why?

because they cant answer u and they want to feel that their religion is above another religion in every way

PS: truth, youre gonna have to kill me now.. your bible teaches you to kill me, doesnt it? ->>>

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." Chronicles 15:13

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first hand putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deuteronomy 13:6-9

lol, im gonna have to order police protection

now hes probably gonna hit me with something like

"the koran teaches that too! it teaches u to have many wives as well!"

like i care lol, im not muslim buddy

brother listen to me closely.

I have seen stuff i cannot explain, i did not grow up being fed jesus
down my throat my whole life.

stuff ive seen just confirms what saints and the apostles have already seen.


you will not believe until he gives his sign out, even then, you might reject him.



"" Why do yu hate islam ""

I love the souls in islam and want them to convert, but i hate what their religion teaches which is
a watering down of gods word. Its a religion which blasphemes the christ whos shown himself to me and i will never
accept he teaching created by an angel of darkness.


"" you would kill me ""

absolutely wrong. God teaches love thy enemies, pray for those who persecute you, thou shall not kill.


kiling is a mortal sin by god.

i would rather you kill me first then me kill you.

god teaches to go to a town, preach them the word of god, and if they reject it leave the town and shake
off the dust from your feet.

peace.

What an interesting, albeit typical post concerning religious subject matter. When a preacher feels threatened by science and logic then all one needs to do is sit back and wait for the demeaning rants which are sure to follow...and follow they did in this thread. The preacher (in this case Rogue Chris) could represent any of the global religions forcing and pushing their way into the lives of others, but they all have one thing in common...they talk "at" you, not "to" you.

Hypothetically, twenty four of the worlds most prolific religious personalities each representing a different structured belief system were gathered into one room along with one other person, a quiet scientist uncommited to any religion sent to gather information.

When the doors were closed, each member of this group was able to share their individual beliefs with the others and within seconds, the preaching started. Everyone jabbered and no one listened...with the exception of the scientist who was taking notes in an attempt to document content of the meeting.

Who would walk out of such a gathering with more gained knowledge than any of the others? The scientist of course...because his assignment was to "listen" to the others and take prudent notes on religious beliefs. His job was accomplished. The 24 religious gurus all left frustrated, angered, and ready to start another of the many religious wars this world has seen far too much of.

The scientist in this hypothetical scenario remains religiously uncommited after analysing his notes, and rightfully so.

Rogue Chris, if you gain your peace of mind by being religiously convicted, that's great. The key phrase is "peace of mind"...some gain it by helping others...some by saving lives...some by spending their life searching knowledge from a biased world in order to come up with an unbiased viewpoint.

Your topic was good, but please refrain from preaching at this site as most of the members are NOT the sheep you are trying to convert.

deleted

Originally posted by Truth
absolutely wrong. God teaches love thy enemies, pray for those who persecute you, thou shall not kill.


kiling is a mortal sin by god.

i would rather you kill me first then me kill you.

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." Chronicles 15:13

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first hand putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deuteronomy 13:6-9

please explain that to me instead of picking a verse from the koran or another book

seems to me liek u dont even know ur bible

and ps: u have not witnessed anything

lol excellent post there deleted.

Truth - I would love to hear about your conversion. In fact I have set up another thread so we can all share our experiences

because, god commanded false prophets and idols to be put to death, because he is a liar and trouble maker.


Whats your point? god never told anone to kill without his judgement. we are not to kill on our personal opinion and hatred.

But heres the difference, alo if you would read scripture in the ot it says thou shall not kill, kill noone who (you) think is evil or do
not be the judger.


Also what we have today is the sacament of (penance) and forgiveness, the sacrament of the new sacrafice, confession ect..


Where as god in the old law would dispose of evil at onceby stricking men down and ordering liars to death baised on his tue judgement, where as today god allows
evil chances and chances to embrace true repentance and forgiveness while giving them every chance possible to repent and recieve the new sacrafice of christ.

what your forgettin here because of pride, is tha god created this world, all of us, he could dispose of our evilness at once whenever he wanted to and
i dont (blame) him, but he alows this world to continue in its evil fr te sake of the of the elect and evil ones who will repent.


God judgements are true, if he ordered evil to parish than thats perfectly fine considering his judgement, god would of back then ordered hitler to death, is that wrong?

of course not. you neither know god nor what he teaches.


God bless.

peace.

Originally posted by Truth

because, god commanded false prophets and idols to be put to death, because he is a liar and trouble maker.


Whats your point? god never told anone to kill without his judgement. we are not to kill on our personal opinion and hatred.

But heres the difference, alo if you would read scripture in the ot it says thou shall not kill, kill noone who (you) think is evil or do
not be the judger.


Also what we have today is the sacament of (penance) and forgiveness, the sacrament of the new sacrafice, confession ect..


Where as god in the old law would dispose of evil at onceby stricking men down and ordering liars to death baised on his tue judgement, where as today god allows
evil chances and chances to embrace true repentance and forgiveness while giving them every chance possible to repent and recieve the new sacrafice of christ.

what your forgettin here because of pride, is tha god created this world, all of us, he could dispose of our evilness at once whenever he wanted to and
i dont (blame) him, but he alows this world to continue in its evil fr te sake of the of the elect and evil ones who will repent.


God judgements are true, if he ordered evil to parish than thats perfectly fine considering his judgement, god would of back then ordered hitler to death, is that wrong?

of course not. you neither know god nor what he teaches.


God bless.

peace.

christianity preaches evil, hatred, and conversion by force

i will not believe something that is sick and teaches me to kill unbelievers

My own words... er... "None of it exists yet your at a website that clearly deals with the destructions and future events that WILL end mankind?" maybe you didn't say this, maybe I am just being all crazy and you never, EVER posted this anywhere in this message board, no you didn't post that in the religion and spirituality board just as you didn't post this on your comment... er... maybe it's my own words... why do people have to be so stupid?

My true colors: Honesty (intelectual), Intelectual Strenght, Power and Pride.

Actually the people I do like ususally do like me, I am not empty of social life, now matter how better I am than you subhuman majority.

Last thing I will be: Blinded, If I deny something it is because I have thought about it, I have come up with my own opi9nion about it after I had passed a kind of nihilistic phase about my opinion on that subject, if anyone is blind here, I'm sorry but it is you.

I judge you and your ideals,
Yes, I am a superior thinker.

SO because I live in Portugal and you live in america I am inferior... wow, talk about someone showing his true colors... Maybe you should judge your position in the world not acotding tyo your country but acording to yourSELF... just a piece of advice... MORON.

My view is anything but close minded, why? because it is only throgh open mindness that I (or we, nihilists) come to the understanding that there is no truth, it's easier to accept that there is any kind of truth than to accept there isn't, it requires strong people with a strong intelect, just think about the moral and ethic problems inerent to the statement.

Instead of saying "it makes no sense" try showing that you have more brains than a 6 year old and actually state WHY it makes no sense, my best guess is that you can't because you never really thought about it and you reject things based on your biased opinions, now talk about close-mindness...

and actually I use this username because I am profoundly antichristian and deeply ofended by your beliefs as a member of the same race (althou you being subhumans and I being human).

I use it for for rebellious style I use it in memory of the Book written by Friedrich Nietzwsche one of the most proeminent philosophers ever, actually you should try to act with care when talking about why someone does this or says this, not everyone has to be like you and i doubt you will ever understand my transcendental thought.

and the voice of reason is trampled yet again....

I find the most fitting thing I can say right now is

ARGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

deleted, that is an intersting allegory. But you are trying to say the scientist is impartial, but every scientist knows that for humans, this is an impossible ability.

Now for a computer to sit in the room, yes it could record all that happend, and today, probably even analyze it.

Many eastern philosophies taught listening, but being partial. I don't think they said "listen but have your own opinions". But that's the way things work with humans.

A human sits in there, he'll have his own ideas, his own opinions, and the scientist can just as easily blow up into a rage against all the "bafoonish god believers" for instance (say he was an athiestic scientist), and learned nothing as well.

No one can be a robot, and be impartial.

What enlightenment mankind has tried to achieve for almost 3000 years, is being attentive, while being independant.

The two don't seem to go well together. It's just easier and more "natural" and "instinctive" to kill the other person, rather than listen to them.

I did find the allegory interesting, just thought it was incomplete, since it makes it seem like "Scientists" are more "enlightened" than any religious person.

This is not true, scientists are just as capable of busting out a gun and blowing off the heads of people with different opinions.

A great deal of science has been held back, especially in the past, because the mainstream belief in science didn't want to admit they were wrong. (Think Classical physics versus quantum physics//mechanics).