To all female ATS members, who support the ways of the middle east.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by oozyism

 

Miriam was the Prophet Jesus's mother.

She is still a Women/

Covering of the face of a woman is most certainly mentioned in the Koran.

Surah "Al Ahzab" ayat no 59 Allah says; "O Prophet! Tell to your wives, and daughters and Muslim women, that they should keep putting a part of their wrapping covers over their faces. This is nearer than this that if they are recognized, they should not be annoyed. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful". Read more: Where exactly in the Koran does it say that a woman should wear a hijab or some sort of covering on her head? | Answerbag www.answerbag.com...

Please don't post BS:

33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more con­ducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. [74] But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace! [75]

Have you ever seen a picture of Marry? You don't see her in a mini Skirt, nor do you see her face covered.

You understand the question about the Sheik. The Taliban do not want women to be educated, this is not based on the Koran, but later teachings by Islamic zealots.

If it is not Islamic, it is cultural, hence, when you follow your forefathers, and what they did, it becomes a culture

reply to post by oozyism
Another question for you.

Where does it say in the Koran that it is okay for a woman to beat her husband?

It does say that a husband can beat his wife!

source:

THE QURAN ON WIFE BEATING Below are 6 English versions of the Quran verse 4:34. This passage lays the foundation for wife beating. I provided all these to show their similarity. These translations are all from recognized scholars. I have corrected some archaic spelling. My comments are in [ ] type brackets. Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1]

More:

reply to post by oozyism
Jesus's mother died long before the birth of Mohammed, hence before Islam was 'created'.

I did not post BS. Every time that Muslims see a quote from the Koran that they don't like, they blame 'poor translation'.

Originally posted by oozyism
If it is not Islamic, it is cultural, hence, when you follow your forefathers, and what they did, it becomes a culture

The pope is the leader of the Catholic church, if he says something is bad, the catholic parishoners around the world are obligated to follow his (also gods) will.

The Imams that spout their stuff are no different. You can call their fatwahs cultural, but they are religious LEADERS issuing orders to their flock, like it or not.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by oozyism

 

Jesus's mother died long before the birth of Mohammed, hence before Islam was 'created'.

I did not post BS. Every time that Muslims see a quote from the Koran that they don't like, they blame 'poor translation'.

^^

Was Marry a women or not? Why was her name mentioned in the Quran?

The word Face is never used in that verse:

33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more con­ducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. [74] But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!

33:59 (Picktall) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

33:59 (Y. Ali) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Non of them says FACE, doesn't even mention FACE.

BS.

Please read this:

COMMENTARY OF BAIDAWI[17]

Baidawi was a Persian Shafi’l scholar who was so respected that he was referred to as "The Judge".

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others

Men are the maintainers over women just as rulers are over their populous, and Allah gave two reasons for this exaltation:

One is due to the completeness of men’s brain over women’s deficiency, their management skills, and their extra requirement of worship; this is why men were chosen to be prophets; religious leaders; rulers; and enforcers of commandments; legal witnesses in a court of law; fighters in the cause of Allah; receivers of more share of the inheritance and in control of divorce. The other is their duty to pay dowry to their wives and provide for them.

It was told that Sa’ad bin Al Rabee’a wife became disobedient so he smacked her. Then her father went to the messenger (saw) to file his complaint, wherein the messenger ruled in her favor. Then this verse was sent down, at which point the messenger said: we wanted something but Allah wanted another, and Allah knows better.

Source:


Yes, the noted Islamic scholar says the reason is that mens brains are complete, while womens brains are deficient!

Not sexist at all.



[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

reply to post by oozyism
It does mention 'their persons'. What would be the point of wearing a cloak to cover their persons? How do you typically disguise yourself for a bank robbery? Cover your butt, so that no one recognize you?

The reason for covering the face of a woman, and her body down to her wrists and ankles, is so that she does not attract the opposite sex.



[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

reply to post by butcherguy


In regards to wife beating:

It seems you haven't done your own research in any of these ideas you are copying and pasting from anti-Islamic websites.

I bet you haven't even read the Quran, non the less, these issues have to be addressed:

This is the Verse at hand:

"(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Here is what the word used in the Verse means:

Adriboo (root: daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part.

Adriboo is the word used in regards, which doesn't just mean beat.

Here is a better transelation:

(4:34) [...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

If would be even better if you read the next verse and see how it makes sense and puts weight to the transelation:

(4:34) [...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

(4:35) And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.

And to add more weight to the transelation:

(4:128) If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best[...]

In this verse, if the wife fears of ill-treatment, she can leave him.

To add more weight in regards to the transelation:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

And to add more weight:

"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

Tell me which website you gonna visit next, I would like to tag a long

[edit on 3-8-2010 by oozyism]

Indeed I have not read the Koran in it's entirety.

Nor have I read the entire Bible, or the Tao te Ching.

It would not matter if I did. As I said before, the Muslims will not accept what their own Koran says, as it is a bad translation.

Just as the Christians don't want to hear what was dropped from their Bible at the Councils of Nicea.

If you want to blindly follow a faith that has mullahs and Imams and whatever other wigwags spouting anti- western and anti-female rhetoric and blame it on culture. None of it is my bag.

I believe that men and women are equal.

I believe that if a religion or government dictate otherwise the people that follow them are fools.

Edit to add: There are Mullahs that would call for my execution upon reading my words here!

And there is not a speck of hate among them.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by oozyism

 

It does mention 'their persons'. What would be the point of wearing a cloak to cover their persons? How do you typically disguise yourself for a bank robbery? Cover your butt, so that no one recognize you?

The reason for covering the face of a woman, and her body down to her wrists and ankles, is so that she does not attract the opposite sex.



[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

LOL

Let's end this one shall we, I rather you try to put all your effort in wife beating lol, that is gonna lead you to learn some Arabic.



Here is some other verses:

024.030

SAY TO THE BELIEVING MEN THAT THEY SHOULD LOWER THEIR GAZE AND GUARD THEIR MODESTY: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

Question, if Allah comanded women to wear veil, then why comanded men to lower their GAZE lol.

let's continue:

024.031

SAY TO THE BELIEVING WOMEN THAT THEY SHOULD LOWER THEIR GAZE AND GUARD THEIR MODESTY; THAT THEY SHOULD NOT DISPLAY THEIR BEAUTY AND ORNAMENTS EXCEPT WHAT (MUST ORDINARILY) APPEAR THEREOF; that THEY SHOULD DRAW THEIR VEILS OVER THEIR BOSOMS not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

This is an interesting one, read the highlight part. See how it doesn't mention the head, nor does it mention the face. The verse only states for Women to cover their BOSSOMS.

That being said:

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to DRAW THEIR CLOAKS CLOSE ROUND THEM (WHEN THEY GO ABROAD). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

This verse says nothing about covering your face. It simply is asking to wear modest clothing.

Do you know what CLOAK means? It doesn't mean going invisible, men wear CLOAKS too. I had one when I was in Afghanistan.

Definition of CLOAK:

A loose outer garment, such as a cape.

Here is a picture of CLOAKS guys wear in Afghanistan:
moroccanmaryam.typepad.com...

do you see that extra clothing on his back? That is called a CLOAK. You can wear it on your head if you wish, but it is not mandatory, it is just a piece of clothing which can hide your body shape, women are extremely hot with their bodies, that is too much for a man to handle sometimes, heck I know first hand, everytime I see them my head turns lol.

"You spin my head right round, right round, when you go down, when you go down, down"

I bet you know that song

Originally posted by butcherguy
Indeed I have not read the Koran in it's entirety.

Nor have I read the entire Bible, or the Tao te Ching.

It would not matter if I did. As I said before, the Muslims will not accept what their own Koran says, as it is a bad translation.

Just as the Christians don't want to hear what was dropped from their Bible at the Councils of Nicea.

If you want to blindly follow a faith that has mullahs and Imams and whatever other wigwags spouting anti- western and anti-female rhetoric and blame it on culture. None of it is my bag.

I believe that men and women are equal.

I believe that if a religion or government dictate otherwise the people that follow them are fools.

Edit to add: There are Mullahs that would call for my execution upon reading my words here!

And there is not a speck of hate among them.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

I have made a whole thread in regards tow hat you are saying above:


The only thing which defines a Muslim is Islam > Quran

Read through the thread before asking a Question, or laying a comment, I suspect many others have been through the same thought frame as you.

reply to post by oozyism
I have already called it quits.

And I steadfastly refuse to learn Arabic.
Just kiddin'
As-Sallaamu Alayka.

SALMA HAYEK Breast Feeds A Hungry African Child | Actress Act Of Love !

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by butcherguy


Interesting I did not know that,

Jesus surrounded himself with women and the first to proclaim he was risen were women and we all know , the, he who is without sin, cast the first stone, story,

I have a whole theory on women in the NT but that's another topic.



[edit on 033131p://bTuesday2010 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by LostNemesis


I'll agree with you on that point. We shouldn't tell those barbarians how to live. Let them continue killing each other until there are none left for all I care. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't judge them for the savages they are.

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
Simple, go there. Do not go there as a tourist. Actually live there. Have a child there. There is a big difference in how the middle east countries treat the "tourists". Vs how they treat their own. Actually live there, See what you are forced to do. Not "asked" to do, "forced". God forbid you have a child, with a local father. At that point, you are theirs, simple and sweet. You are no longer a human being. You are lower than a slave. You are a woman under the laws of the Muslim religion, in a Muslim controlled country. I envite every one of you, who are bound to attack this post to move there and learn the truth. Do not guess. Do not retaliate under the pretense of something you have no idea about, just go and see.

This doesn't need to be a challenge...I think most of us know how the culture is in the middle east.

As much as the Western world doesn't agree with the culture, the U.S. shouldn't be trying to change their culture at the cost of war and lives. Just like how they don't agree with our culture. Should the U.S. and other Western countries allow them to bomb or invade the U.S. because we wear blue jeans and allow our women to wear less clothing and show more skin?

It just doesn't justify the U.S. going over there and invading every country, bombing the crap out of their buildings, killing 400,000+ Iraqis, and setting up a democracy in every country we invade.

Originally posted by tylerdurden89
I think most of us know how the culture is in the middle east.

Actually, I think most of us don't know. We only hear the negative stories by the MSM meant to instill fear and hate. Some places do have human rights problems, but most places don't. I'm starting to think maybe people should take up the challenge and go see for themselves. I've been there. I think many would be surprised.

By the way, tylerdurden89, I'm not trying to rip your post. I agree completely with everything you said except that one line.

reply to post by oozyism
Had to respond to the whole "cloak" thing.

It is used in the sense of "covering ones person".

Do you honestly think that the Koran is telling followers of Mohammed to wear a cloak when they go outside? You don't think there is a reason?

It doesn't say, wear a cloak when it is raining.
It doesn't say wear a cloak if it is cold outside.
It does not say cover yourself from the sun.

If what you are saying is true, it sounds like the Koran was written for five year old children.

It says cover yourself when you are out in public, basically. NO mention of doing it for any reason other than covering yourself. Other than for this reason.....

It says COVER yourself when you are out around men who are not your relatives.

SO, yes, I am aware of what a cloak is. I remember what the closet at the rear of the classroom was called at the elementary school that I attended.

It was called a 'CLOAK ROOM'.





[edit on 4-8-2010 by butcherguy]

reply to post by dreamwalker74


I hear what you are saying, and have observed myself how in muslim countries women tend to be considered the 'property' of the males. I do not agree with this.

At the same time, I am surprised that you were surprised by what you experienced and learned. There is plenty of information available which accurately describes life in these and other cultures, often written by men and women from those countries. So, I wonder how you weren't already aware of this beforehand.

And perhaps I'm wrong, but I get a sense that in this 'cultural shock' which you have experienced, you maybe have some expectation or belief that your way is the right way.

I know that people from other cultures, including Muslim countries but not exclusively so, also find many things extremely distasteful about Western culture, such as the very crude over-sexualisation of our society, the way women publicly parade their sexuality - something which they would consider gross and in bad taste - drunkeness, lack of care of our elderly, break down of the family and family values, the crassness of the celebrity culture, the irreverence towards basic human values, etc, etc.

I do not agree with any given group being subjected to the abuse and domination of another group...whether it be for religions, gender, race - or oil or politics. I do not believe in any group exploiting others or taking away their natural freedom through force or intiidation. Nor do I believe that we have got it right in the West, in fact, in many ways I think we too have got it very, very wrong.







[edit on 5-8-2010 by wcitizen]

[edit on 5-8-2010 by wcitizen]

reply to post by dietsamcola



Yes, I agree, we Western barbarians are in no position to tell anyone else how to live.

(Mm, just realised I only wrote one line and I will get penalised, so - now I have two!)


[edit on 5-8-2010 by wcitizen]