Revelation; The Mark of the Beast

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posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:23 PM
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"Anyone not wishing to come under suspicion of behaving in a consciously negative manner will therefore render the 'Hitler-greeting'." German decree, 1933

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch13 vv16-17.

I'm going to be asking the question; how can we know the "mark of the Beast"?

We've got the guidance of a number of clues in the chapter.

The first clue is the timing of the Mark.

The timing is very clear, and very important.
The first Beast, the world-state, comes to power in vv4-7.
The second Beast, the world-leader and antichrist, appears from v12.
Then the second Beast compels the worship of the first Beast (and acceptance of his own authority).
He's allowed to "give breath to the image of the Beast...and to cause those who would not worship the image to be slain".

It is at THIS point that he begins to require the Mark.
The obvious purpose is to identify those who are willing (or unwilling) to worship the Beast.
The context identifies it as a deliberate sign of loyalty.

The second clue is the location of the Mark.

"On the right hand or the forehead".
These places have symbolic meaning.
They are the places where God wanted his people to keep his laws- Deuteronomy ch6 v8
The Pharisees obeyed the command with phylacteries and scripture texts, but they were surely missing the point (this is one of the hazards of excessive literalism).
I believe what God really meant was that he wanted his people to keep his Law at the forefront of their minds.

The implication of putting the Mark in the same place is that obedience to God has been replaced by obedience to the Beast.
(There's also the possibility that slaves were marked in this way to identify their owners)
So it isn't necessary to take the location literally- we can focus on the symbolic meaning that the Mark indicates a loyalty to the Beast which replaces loyalty to God.

The next clue is the form of the Mark.

We're told that the Mark would be the name of the Beast or the number of its name. In theory, the latter would be "666". But is this plausible, in practice, when the number itself is already so notorious? We understand that the second Beast would be someone claiming to be the returned Christ, and he would surely want people to believe him. If he openly used the number 666, he would be advertising himself as an imitation. So nobody would apply that number to him except his enemies (which would make it a dangerous graffito to paint on the walls).

So the point must be that "name or number" must link the wearers to the identity of the Beast, whatever that identity might be. I've expressed my thoughts elsewhere about the kind of ruler that would be indicated by the number "666".

The fourth clue is the social effect of the Mark.

Since the Mark identifies the willing worshippers of the Beast, the absence of the Mark identifies the stubborn people who reject his claims. We're told that they won't be allowed to "buy or sell".

In other words, they will experience a boycott. A well-organised boycott is devastating in its effects, as the eponymous Captain Boycott discovered. It works by marshalling the social majority against a social minority (like the Jews in Nazi Germany), which makes it a perfect instrument of persecution.

The social effect of the Mark is that it protects people from this treatment, because it identifies tham as worshippers of the Beast and therefore loyal members of society.

The final clue is the spiritual effect of the Mark.

The next time we meet the people wh were "given the Mark" is in ch14 v10, when we're told that they must "drink the wine of God's wrath". In other words, God now identifies them as his enemies.

That follows naturally from the fact that taking the Mark involves choosing loyalty to the Beast, the enemy of God. So taking the Mark is a decision against God, which God recognises as such.

But if the Mark is such a reliable indicator of loyalty that it can be decisive even in the eyes of God, there are certain conditions which it must be able to meet;

The condition of voluntary loyalty (it can't be forced on you). Because if it could be imposed by physical force, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.

The condition of conscious loyalty (you must be aware of what you're doing). Because if it could be imposed by any kind of deception or trickery, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.

These two conditions together add up to the principle of "informed choice", as they call it in the medical world.

One of the implications of the second condition is a third condition;
The condition of timing (the Mark cannot be offered until there s a visible Beast to receive the loyalty). Which is precisely what we've already discoverd in the passage, that the Beast came first and THEN enforced a symbol of loyalty to himself.

One of the further implications is that nobody has committed himself to the Beast if he innocently receives something which is later identified as the Mark of the Beast.
I can illustrate the point by the analogy of the swastika. This was used in India for centuries before the Nazis, and Rudyard Kipling used to put it on the covers of his books. I've got one in front of me now- The Jungle Book, printed 1932. There it is, on the front cover, next to an elephant's profile. But the Indians and Kipling did not become Nazis by using the symbol. My father did not become a Nazi by receiving the book as a school prize, and I don't become one (even now) by having it on my bookshelves.
In other words, there can be no such thing as accidentally receiving the Mark and giving your loyalty to the Beast.

We're now in a position to put together a defintion of the mark, which helps us to identify it.
I've established that the Mark is a sign of loyalty to the Beast.
I've established that it must represent a voluntary and conscious loyalty (since, otherwise, it would not incur the wrath of God).
Most interpretations of the two Beasts will apply the term "antichrist" to one of them (the second one, as far as I'm concerned), and the meaning of the word "antichrist" is "someone who claims to be the returned Christ".
Therefore we can add that the meaning of the Mark would have to include the recognition of those claims.

Putting those components together;
The Mark of the Beast is that symbol or set of symbols which indicates a voluntary and conscious loyalty to the Beast and/or that world-leader openly claiming to be the returned Christ

How do some of the current theories match up to these conclusions?

I believe one group is founded on the observation that "the Beast gives everyone a number", because they look to Social Security numbers and other identity numbers. But the observation is inaccurate; everyone in the text gets the same number, because the Mark is there to present the name of the Beast, not the names of the people wearing it.

In any case, identity numbers don't seem to pass the test of "conscious loyalty", because they're not distributed on that basis.

The same objection applies to most of the examples of "666" that can be found in different places (in so many different places, as I've observed elsewhere, that they cancel each other out- it becomes impossible to choose between them).

As for the ingenious theory that the number 666 has been somehow encoded into the human body- that one obviously fails the test of "voluntary loyalty"!

Another group is founded on the observation that "the Beast controls who buys and sells". But that observation's inaccurate as well. The restriction in the text is a way of penalising the stubborn believers, who are "behaving in a consciously negative manner". It is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Nevertheless, there are people finding the Mark in anything to do with trade and commerce, from Barclaycards to barcodes. But I must ask- do any of these suggestions pass the test of "conscious loyalty" relating to a public individual resembling the Beast?

And I suppose I must consider the RFID chip, which brings in two themes at the same time- control of trade and identity numbers. Part of the anxiety about the chip is the possibility that it might be made compulsory. But in that case, I should point out, it would immediately fail the test of "voluntary loyalty". And it's not going to pass the test of "conscious loyalty", either, unless it's distributed in the name of someone openly claiming to be the returned Christ. This is not likely to happen in the near future, so an RFID chip being distributed in the near future is not going to be the Mark of the Beast, whatever else might be wrong with it.

Which brings us to one final point, namely the condition of timing.
I pointed out at the very beginning that the Mark would be distributed at a time when an antichrist figure with world-wide power would be enforcing worship of the Beast and imposing the death penalty on those who refused to obey.
We do not have such a figure in the world at the moment.
Therefore it is premature to expect to see the Mark of the Beast.

Based on my previous definition, I'm going to offer this two-step method of identifying the Mark;
Step 1; Look around the world, and identify a world-leader openly claiming to be the returned Christ. That is the Beast, or one of them.
Step 2; Note what symbol he is using to identify those who accept his claim. That is the Mark.
If the steps are carried out in that order, and the second step is not even attempted until the first step has been successfully completed, then the method is infallible.












[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]




posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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...

[edit on 8/1/2010 by indigothefish]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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Excellent analysis, and likely deduction for the progression of the method and accoutrements. Probably won't happen in our lifetime. I don't see it happening until the world has forgotten about Christ and the mark. Some see this as happening after the rapture, when the only ones left don't give a darn about the mark or beast. They're ok with whatever. At that point, some will return to believing in Christ, but will be beheaded for His sake.

Things could get interesting. Believers may not have to worry about it. They will be caught up to meet Him in the air. Things around the pre-trib and post-trib discussion certainly leave a lot to be understood, as Revelation is vague at this point in time.

[edit on 8/1/2010 by Jim Scott]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:46 PM
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why open another thread on this topic Disraeli? i really enjoy your posts but why another one on this, why not put it in one of your other mark of beast threads?



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:51 PM
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Enjoyed that post - thanks.

I have heard many, many ideas regarding this - with many people being worried if they have 'received the mark'. Your logic seems very sound but above all it just makes sense.

Regardless of whether people believe, good stuff.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:53 PM
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very well put together sir. i've told people for a long time that if it's a have to thing... then it cannot be the mark spoke of in the bible.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by Jim Scott
 

Thank you for that contribution.
I've got to admit that I've never taken the "rapture" theory on board.
That might simplify things a little. At least I like to think that my approach is less complicated than some of the ones that are around.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by iamnot
why open another thread on this topic Disraeli? i really enjoy your posts but why another one on this, why not put it in one of your other mark of beast threads?

Because I'm only allowed 10,000 characters per thread.
Surely you've noticed that each thread says different things, and talks about a different part of the chapter?
If I'm going to put in everything that needs putting in, the subject needs to be split up.
As it was, I nearly ran out of space last time (I had to make a special effort to boost my character limit in time for the occasion).



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by AlwaysQuestion

I have heard many, many ideas regarding this - with many people being worried if they have 'received the mark'.

I did wonder if that was happening.
If I can do something to stop people being worried on the subject, then it will definitely have been worth the effort.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


I am not a christian but I was raised Hellfire and brimstone Baptist.
As I recall, with all of our speculation and the biggest supercomputers in the world we would still not be able to tell what which signs meant.
I think that is Gods word, if you so believe.
So, you will not truly know or be able to tell until your God says so.
Now for the German salute, that is all it is. all soldiers across the world do this.
The German open palm salute is to show, "I have no weapons and I know that you are a warrior also, I mean you no harm as my hands are empty".
The regular salute the US and many forces use is an old custom among Knights, they would lift their visor to show who they were and that they saw the other Knight.
I think a salute is reading abit too much into the whole thing, but hey who knows I have been wrong before.


(Edit)
Sorry forgot to put this in.
Now to debunk the Bible,
All the devil has to do to foul up all of the Christian Gods plan is to simply change his mark and not use 666 as well as not put the mark on the forehead or hand.
These things have to be this way as God himself says so.
Unless if God just doesn't know.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by g146541]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:19 PM
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DISRAELI, could you tell us about the other mark? The one that the Elect get on their foreheads? Is it a pair of opposites we have here?

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Student X]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Student X
DISRAELI, could you tell us about the other mark? The one that the Elect get on their foreheads? Is it a pair of opposites we have here?


Yes, I think it is. You mean the "sealing" of the 144,000, I take it.
I shall come to that in a fortnight's time.
The logic is, explain about the Beast, and then deal with the church's response to the Beast.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by g146541
Now to debunk the Bible,
All the devil has to do to foul up all of the Christian Gods plan is to simply change his mark and not use 666 as well as not put the mark on the forehead or hand.

You should have been reading more closely, because that's exactly what I said myself.
Reread the section headed "The form of the Mark", where I point out that the antichrist is not likely to use the literal number 666 because it would give him away as a fake.

As for the German salute, the comparison point was that the decree was deliberately specifying that not doing it would be a sign of disloyalty.
Similarly, not taking the "Mark" would be recognised as a sign of disloyalty.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


I agree with most everything you stated. I think you should read my thread regarding the mark of the beast. Essentially we are saying a similar thing. Don't worry about the end of the thread it was something I through out there.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What are your thoughts about the anti-christ. I sometimes think that the anti-christ is the grand deceiver, but in a good way. In the beginning he comes as a peace maker supportive of the beast. However, he deceives others as to what his true agenda is. His agenda ends with chaos and a restructuring of the world into a new world at the end of the age. I sometimes think that there is no greater deception right now, then our society. We fake everything. Talk about deception at it's highest. And don't ever buck the system as you would find yourself without work and ridiculed by the masses supporting the system.

It is my belief, although open to changing it, that the anti-christ is the good guy who deceives the beast to get into power. He acts like the first beast with all the power of the beast and goes against what it wants. To me this is the agent of change...that could very well cause people who enjoy our world economic system and social structure that don't know what to do.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:00 PM
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Reply to ExPostFacto

Thank you for that contribution.
I'll have a look at the thread later.
You ask for my thoughts on the antichrist.
Well, for a start, have you seen my threads on the two Beasts?
The Beast from the Sea- the world-state
The Beast- great leader and antichrist
Up to a point, the titles speak for themselves.
In the second one, i used the analogy that the second Beast would relate to the first Beast as Hitler related to the Third Reich, ie acting in its name, glorifying it, and so on.

I think an antichrist must be claiming to be the returned Christ, because that's what the word means. Anyone who thinks he's not going to do that shouldn't be using the word. But in today's cultural world, he would probably be claiming other things as well in order to appeal to everybody- Maitreya, Mahdi, you name it.





[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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DISRAELI, have you considered the possibility that the mark, as it appears on the symbolic forehead, is a psychic phenomenon? That someone who has the mark on their forehead ('inner eye') wouldn't even know it, because the mark is really a mark on the mind?

It is a 'hidden' mark, a psychic mark, a collective mindset of materialism, atheism, scientism, etc. In parapsychological terms, it could be the sheep-goat effect. The mark of the Beast is the 'goat' part. It's an unconscious psychic mark on the mind itself, and it hides the truth from the 'goats'.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by Student X]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:24 PM
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I actually don't belive in this stuff but if i would i'd be pretty sure that beast=money

... its signs are € $ etc. It allready killed a lot of people, it rules the world and when they will start to make chips or something to prevent frauds you will have to get a mark, without chip you won't be able to buy or sell
People will voluntarily recieve a mark cause everyone needs money. Another beast is the church
lol



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by Student X
 

On the subject of God's mark, my answer resembles yours but from a slightly different angle.
I was proposing to identify it with being "sealed by the Holy Spirit", as described in eg Ephesians ch1 v13. In other words, yes, not necessarily something that can be "felt" by the recipient. Just a mark of "belonging to God", and getting the spiritual support which goes with that.

On the Beast's Mark, though- I considered the possibility that it might be an invisible, "spiritual" mark in a similar way, but I had to reject it because of the social effect of the Mark,as described in my piece. If it is going to be used as a reason for boycotting, then it has to be somehing visible to ordinary eyesight, so that other people know how to react. So- a symbol, a piece of clothing, a salute or something else behavioural, who knows? But it would have to be visible.


[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


i realized a little late that this thread was specifically about the mark


i think people are going to be trying to figure out the mark right up until the time of the resurrection.

that will be the only proof positive sign that everyone left living in this world when it becomes one is already marked.

when the dead are raised the world will be astonished at its 'self'

all the world wondered at the beast
they that dwell on earth shall wonder, those who were not written in the book of life

there are two names written in the book of revelations.
on the harlots forehead is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT
in the forehead of the 144000, the Father's name

God says come out of her my people.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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heres a docu about whats goin on.






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