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Simon Bolivar exhumation, Chavez trick to start Mega-Continental conflict.

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posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by The angel of light
 


I don't understand your post. I just told what is going on between Chavez and Catholic Church.




posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
the US, the greatest purveyor of violence, war, and terrorism in the world today. I do recall, the disclosed documents of the CIA training death squads in south america to rape, murder, and terrorize their citizens into subservience of dictators favorable to american corporate rape of their natural resources


Get over it. I can see you are most envious of the greatest nation the world has ever seen. A nation who's very existence enables you to spread your self hating vitriol.

Without America all of the world would be in tyranny or made into lampshades. Aim your rhetoric at N. Korea or at the Taliban and see how far that gets you. Also please try to find an empire that has had a more benign role in world politics than the US. Don't hold your breath whilst doing so, you'll fall unconscious soon enough.

All your socialist dream states, like Maoist China and Stalin's soviet union were responsible for the slaughter of millions of their own citizens. Chavez wishes to create a civilization in their image. Is this the sort of thing you want to live in?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 


Hi Trueman,

As I explained in the original thread of 2007, in which it was clearly shown that Hugo Chavez Frias accomplish several of the signals that Michel of Nostradamus gave concerning the character of the last AntiChrist, this is a figure that is appearantly respecting Religion, at the begining of his career, but in the midterm of his mission start to confront the Church.

Hugo Chavez was actually in his early childhood chosen by his mother to be sent to a seminar, that is a monk school of the Catholic Church, with the intention to make of him a Priest.

Soon after he arrived to the seminar he started to show a very abnormal behavior, a lot of attitudes of reveldy against the discipline of the school and finally a terrible scandal that by that time was considered, by the superiors of the religious institute, as even a sacrilege act.

Acccording with these versions, he was once in the chapel of the Monastery and when he supposed no body was paying attention to him he suddenly shouted in the altar that Jesus was a sort of Moron, since he instead to start a political or violent revolution against the Romans and the higher social classes of Isreal he decided to accept his sentence of death.

The Priets undertood by that moment that Chavez actually didn't have any trully religious vocation, and that might be a huge mistake to insist to retain him in that place, he even was menaced of excomunication of the church due to his very bold action.

It is an irony but Chavez is not he only encarnation of the Antichrist archaetype that tried to do religious career before to find his political vocation, also Joseph Stalin was exactly in the same case, and Ernesto Cardenal in Nicaragua, a revel priest that joined the Sandinist Revolution, and that was excomunicated by the Pope Johan Paul II for that reason, is another example of this rare behavior.

Thanks for your question,

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/3/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by The angel of light
 


I see what you mean now. To be honest, I didn't know most of the things about him you are telling me now. I'm not sure if we can call him the antichrist, but he totally is a soldier of darkness, evil enough to twist Bolivar ideas and conviced to death he has a mission.

You got flagged brother.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Trueman]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by SevenThunders
 


Well, certainly Hugo Chavez is not acting alone, since apart of his other marxist satelites in Latin America ( Salvador, Nicaragual, Equator, Bolivia and his second mother fatherland Cuba), he has a secret devil pact already signed with the Communist leaders of the Peoples Republic of China, with the North Korean Dictator as well as with the Iranian also dictator to join forces in a world conflict that will try to erase any democracy of the world.

This is the so Evil Axis of totalitarian superpowerful totalitarian regimes that Mitchel of Nostradamus and also Ulrich of Meinz foresaw in their respedtive predictions of the WWIII.

The point is that many interpreters of Nostradamus cannot see clearly Chavez as the so waited Antichrist, primarly because he is not a middle east leader, but they don't take in account that he has traveled to middle east several times to visit his allies, and even in one of his trips to Arabia he told in a very public speech that he could be an Arab, that he felt very close to them.

Of course Hugo Chavez is not wrong about that, since he himself is descendant part of muslim moors that were expulsed of the Iberic Peninsula by the Catholic kings and were sent to the north of SouthAmerica. Venezuela is a country with great ethnical diversity and moreover a nation with millions of immigrants.

If you see carefully the face of Chavez it is clear that he has north African ancestry, his look is exactly like many people of Morroco, algeria or Mauritania, and if you see him using the so many berets that likes to wear, it is so easy for a man of the XVI century, as it was Nostradamus, to confuse him with a moor using Turban.

Here there is one of his iconic Photos with Beret:

www.latinamericanstudies.org...

and here you can see that his army also use that type of cap, so they look very exotic, not as the stereotype we have of the South Americans:

www.france24.com...

Now, there is actually a first precedent that show Chavez to perhaps be interested in wear Arab costumes, you can see this very curious photo of him with a kefieb, used by the people of Jordan, Sinai and Palestine:

4.bp.blogspot.com...

Since Chavez use to love to wear the national colors of Venezuela, it will not seem strange than one of these days he will surprise us with a blue beret, instead of the red one he always prefer, and in that moment nobody could say that he is not matching perfectly with the profile of the Mabus that was predicted by the french seer to start the WWIII.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/3/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 5 2010 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by Trueman
 


Hi Trueman,

There are two other important points that I must add, besides the one of the moor ancestry of Chavez, to show that he match in a so impressive way with the profile that was given by Mitchel of Nostradamus of that obscure figure of the future:

- Chavez was born in a country that in the first two centuries of the spanish conquest of South America was called not Venezuela, as it is now, but Caribana, the fatherland of the Caribes, that were a so fiercy race of anthropophages that plagued the Caribbean sea and the north of that continent after the 1000 AC.

The Caribes were traditionaly known by the higher cultures of the Andes, like the Incas of Peru and the Chibchas of Columbia, as the Barbarians that came from the Guayana plato, in Venezuela. They liked to cause panic among the other aborigins of the continent with terrible carnages, they were responsible of the destruction of many other prehispanic nations, even until the point of practically send them to extincion.

Famous cases of great cutures or precolumbian civilzations that were harrased by the Caribes were:

The Quimbayas and the Calimas of Columbia, the best goldsmiths of the ancient Americas, that were literally erased of the map by western caribes as the Lilies, jamundies.

Another famous case is the so called Sn Agustin civlization, named in that way due to the fact that it emerged in the geographical zone of the soutn eastern Columbian Andes around the Sn Agustin Town.

Well, we are talking in this last case about not a mere culture, but an actual prehispanic civilization, that are famous for their dolmens and very fine giant sculptures in basaltic stones, the best of all the North andes, that was anhilated by also terrible barbarian Caribes tribes known as Andaquies almost five centuries before the arrival of the spaniards.

Returning to Hugo Chavez, he is, as everybody knows a mixed man, he has moor ancestry but also Carib one, and he is really proud about it, he even use that as a hymn of courage in his speechs.

Now, one important distintion of the Caribes were that they had clearly mongol features, the obliques eyes, very dark manes, but that liked a lot to shave on certain zones of their cranes, using a haircut that was similar to the one we associate, from the european art, with barbarian leaders as Atila and Genghis Khan. also they had yellowish skins, without any facial hair, they were an antonishment discovery that the conqueror did in the Andes, a people that looked really as Asian.

Now, why this is important?

Because Chavez arrived to the power first time on 1998, a time of incredible social and economical crisis in Venezuela, but one year later he reformed the Constitution of the Country to create the legal frame in which he could assume all the political powers that characterize a Dictator.

The new Bolivarian Constitution of venezuela, was started to be dictated by a national constitutional assembly controled by Chavez on the 25th of July of 1999, again in the month of July, that is, the seventh month of that Year.

Now, what it the best quatrain of Nostradamus to describe the arrival of the New AntiChrist?

The same one that has defied many interpretations?

Seems of obscure meaining, isnt it? even to great interpreters of Nostradamus , like for John Hague, since it is a genuine puzzle, but until now.

I claim that Chavez is the Political figure that matches perfectly with the words of the seer of Provence, famous for the incredible accuracy of his predictions:

From Century X, quatrain 72:




72
The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.



Pay attention to this so imporant conclusion:

None other event in the planet, none other world leader match with this quatrain as Hugo Chavez Frias:

- Descendent of a violent mongolic tribe that arrived to southAmerica from the south Pacific, harrasing almost everybody on their pace.

- Also descendent of muslims moors, ( and so friend of arabs that is another characteristic of the third antichrist present also in Nostradamus Quatrains),

- A leader that believes primarly in the use of the force, in revolutions and that now is showing clearly that is preparing carefully a continental conflict to be able to reach its goals,

and

- Finally a person that was excomunicated by the Catholic church for his so biased interpretations of the Bible, so technically a Heretic man.



Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/5/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 5 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by The angel of light
 


As I can see, you had study Hugo Chavez deeply and I thank you for all that information.

After reading your post, I have to admit that there is a big chance you are right and I believe we just have to wait a few years more to confirm your theory.



posted on Aug, 5 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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History is often written by the winners, protraying the losers of a conflict as the bad guy. It is a curiousity if they can, by doing this forensic exhumation the way Simon Bolivar died, putting to rest all questions, however, my general feeling is that they are going to take and make a martyr of the leader, who gave so much so that so many could enjoy today, what their forefathers could not.



posted on Aug, 7 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by Headpool
 


I think actually it is needed that somebody open the eyes here but not in the sense you are refering.

Now since it is clear you are unable to do so alone, let me try to Help You:

Columbia is a country that since 1984 has fought a tremendous difficult and corageous war against the Nartotraffic cartiers, paying for that the higher human sacrifice none other nation in the History has done until now in the same task;

- The whole supreme court of the country was kidnapped and assassinated in 1985 in a fierce battle between the Narco guerrila and the Army
- Two Justice Secretaries were asassesinated in 1984 Rodrigo lara bonilla and in 1987 Enrique Low-Mutra.
- other Justice Secreatary almost died in attempt of assassination when he was in a trip in Hungary.
- A National Attorney Carlos Mauro Hoyos was brutally tortured and assassinated in 1990.
- Three Presidential Candidates were Assassinated, one was the favorite to be elected as President in 1990 Luis Carlos Galan tha promised to extradit all the Lords of Cocaine to USA.
- Three more Presidential excandidates were kidnapped in the 1990's ( Andres Pastrana ( laterly President), Ingrid Betancourt and Alvaro Gomez ( also former VicePresident), and both were fortunately rescued by the Army.
- Thousands of Judges, prosecutors, Policemen, solidiers have also died in this terrible confrontation with the organized crime.
- about three million people was forced to moveout from its properties due to the conflict in between Narcotrafficants against the authorities.
- about 600000 Columbians have lost their lives in this huge internal conflict.


What are the effective results of this war?

- Carlos Ledher-Rivas, Principal of the Armenia Drug Cartier was extradited to USA in 1988.
- Pablo Escobar-Gaviria, Principal of the Medellin drug Cartier and by that time the richest man of the world was executed in 1993-
- Gonzalo Rodriguez-Gacha, Principal of the Cundinamarca drug Cartier was executed in 1990.
- Santa Cruz, important member of the Drug cartier of Cali was executed in 1991 when he tried to escape from prision.
- The Rodriguez-Orejuela brothers, lords of the Drug Cartier of Cali were extradited to the USA by President Uribe after been in prision for years in Columbia.
- Thousands of Tons of Cocaine and other drugs have been destroyed by the Columbian army and policeman in presence of interpol land the DEA during the last 25 years.

This is enormous human sacrifice that deserve all the respect ot the world is the one that compromise United States to support a goverment and a country that has proven bejond any possibly doubt that is fighting against the criminality.

What else can you requet to a Nation to show its Loyalty with the cause of the legality and Democracy?


I sincerely would suggest you to read more of History and less of Political propaganda of a decadent seudoMarxist regimes of SouthAmerica to be better informed.

By the way let me express my best regards, and a sincere pray for the good future of the Presidence of Dr Juan Manuel Santos today August 7th of his inauguration ceremony.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/7/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 03:50 AM
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reply to post by anarchosyndicalist
 


This documentary filmed by an Irish crew as it happened depicts a much-loved president being ousted by the elite whose livelihood was threatened by Chavez.

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised!

I've yet to see any believable, incriminating evidence against the man. I don't trust any of the crap that the MSM puts out and that goes double if the source is the US Government.

The CIA obviously learned their lessons from this and prevented a similar retaking of Honduras during their recent coup against Zelaya. The storyline reads almost the same otherwise.

"The angel of light" - please get out of the church for a few hours and enjoy some fresh air, sunshine, and perhaps a moments sanity. It could do you some good.

(Edit to move link up)

[edit on 14-8-2010 by JohnJasper]



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by Trueman
reply to post by The angel of light
 


I see what you mean now. To be honest, I didn't know most of the things about him you are telling me now. I'm not sure if we can call him the antichrist, but he totally is a soldier of darkness, evil enough to twist Bolivar ideas and conviced to death he has a mission.

You got flagged brother.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Trueman]


Trueman, you forgot to add the "rolling eyes" character at the end. Otherwise people will think that you've actually started believing this claptrap based on the puerile ranting of this religious zealot.

Anyone who thinks that the USA has any link to spreading freedom and democracy across the world, is overlooking a serious amount of factual history.



posted on Aug, 14 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by SevenThunders

Originally posted by pexx421
the US, the greatest purveyor of violence, war, and terrorism in the world today. I do recall, the disclosed documents of the CIA training death squads in south america to rape, murder, and terrorize their citizens into subservience of dictators favorable to american corporate rape of their natural resources


Get over it. I can see you are most envious of the greatest nation the world has ever seen. A nation who's very existence enables you to spread your self hating vitriol.

Without America all of the world would be in tyranny or made into lampshades. Aim your rhetoric at N. Korea or at the Taliban and see how far that gets you. Also please try to find an empire that has had a more benign role in world politics than the US. Don't hold your breath whilst doing so, you'll fall unconscious soon enough.

All your socialist dream states, like Maoist China and Stalin's soviet union were responsible for the slaughter of millions of their own citizens. Chavez wishes to create a civilization in their image. Is this the sort of thing you want to live in?


By "greatest nation" do you mean this nation

- that has totally indebted all of its citizens beyond redemption,

- that is reducing the standard of living of 90% of its population to that of Haiti

- that is continually eroding civil liberties of Americans

- that is visiting horrendous destruction on nations whose only crime was to not allow western corporations free access to their resources and markets

- that invented the "war on terror" to justify aggressive invasion of 70 countries worldwide

- that supported/instigated political overthrows in Chile, Argentina, Haiti, Panama, Venezuala, Honduras, Cuba, etc.

- that allows rigged elections at home and supports them abroad such as the recent Afghanistan presidential elections?

No doubt you see all this as just vicious lies perpetrated by enemies of God's chosen nation!

(Apologies for not providing links to all of the above. As you are a frequenter of ATS, the information is at your fingertips.)



posted on Aug, 27 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by JohnJasper
 


JohnJasper,

Well, any body that read your last advise to me could imagine that I am all the time living in a church isolated of what it is occuring in the world, nothing more wrong about me and about my clear perception of the reality.

Tne fact is that while you seems to be living in the clouds of the most beautiful utopias, there are in this precise moment populist demagotic seudo leaders trying to fish more and more ignorant people with the false illusion that the return to artifitial political systems that were completly reprobed due to their inefficiency to create the paradise that they once proposed on 1920's.

Possibly my friend, you don't have historical memory to remember that 20 years ago the Soviet and Eastern European people exploited in social turmoils claiming for freedom and for democracy due to the fact that although they were living in more than a 1/6 of the total size of the planet, surrounded by a lot of natural resources, they were starving and living in misery after 70 years of supposed paradisiac rule.

Why I am refering to the communist experiment of the so called ex socialist block? because that is exactly what Hugo Chavez Frias wants to do again with southAmerica, that is his most precious fantasy, to create another federation of Neocommunist or Neomarxist states all together orbiting around the Bol.....shevik Republic of Venezuela. .

But Let me return your advise to you, so close all those so retoric marxist and bolivarian books and go to outdoors to breath a little the real air and see that although certainly there are many problems in America at least here no body is prisioner of the circumstances, who ever want to exit the country can do it to look for better horizons, who ever want to trade goods can do so without restrictions, who ever want to buy products can do so without doing so long lines as it used to happen in communist countries, who ever is not employed at least has unemployment insurance to continue surviving in the middle of the crisis.

In America, even in the middle of this huge recession, we are all free to express our incomformity in public, something that is a real luxury in Venezuela on these days where many of the civil rights and the free press are only now History, where the people has to follow a psycotic Tyrant that is clearly obssesed with the idea that he is the reincarnation of a turboculosian militar that lived 200 years ago, or be ready to affront the most brutal repression.

Yes my friend, what a remarkable coincidence is that the men that promised the most beautiful utopias on earth like Napoleon, Robespiere, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao Tse tung, Mussolini, Franco are the ones that precisely have passed to the History records as the worst genocides that ever existed. Among them, of course Hugo Chavez Frias dreams to be counted in the future, of course in company of his so close camarede Fidel Castro Ruz.

Please read more History and less Fiction and live in 2010 not in 1970's when the so many negative facts you mentioned against the American international policy occured, the President now is Barack Obama and not Richard Nixon.

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/27/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 27 2010 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by The angel of light
 




Possibly my friend you don't have historical memory to remember that 20 years ago the Soviet people exploited in social turmoils claiming for freedom and for democracy due to the fact that although they were living in a 1/6 of the total size of the planet, surrounded by a lot of natural resources, they were starving and living in misery after 70 years of supposed paradisiac rule.


I remember the Soviet Union thank you as well as many countries that still have repressive regimes and starving, miserable people surrounded by lots of valuable natural resources. However, I've seen no evidence to indicate that Venezuala is one of them. I've heard plenty of people making unproven accusations and it reminds me of the demonisation of previous national leaders who fell out of favor with the US and UK e.g. Zelaya (Honduras), Aristide (Haiti), Hussein (Iraq), Ahmadinejad (Iran), Qassim (Iraq 1963)



...we are all free to express our incomformity in public, something that is a real luxury in Venezuela on these days where many of the civil rights and the free press are only now History, where the people has to follow a psycotic Tyrant that is clearly obssesed with the idea that he is the reincarnation of a turboculosian militar that lived 200 years ago.


No doubt you have plenty of hard evidence to back up your points. You should be able to cite several US propaganda references for your viewpoint.

I'll mention again the Irish documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised and add this Venezuala Analysis article about the television channel situation, President of Venezuelan Opposition TV Station Accused of Inciting Panic and False Information. Both adequately state the true situation in the country which doesn't bear any resemblance to your depiction.



Mérida, March 26th 2010 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – On Thursday, Venezuelan authorities temporarily detained Guillermo Zuloaga, the president of a prominent opposition-aligned television station Globovision, for disseminating false information about the two-day coup d’état against democratically elected President Hugo Chavez in April 2002.
...
Investigations carried out after the coup revealed that opposition-aligned policemen were responsible for the sniper shootings of both pro-Chavez and opposition protestors, and that prominent television stations, including Globovision, manipulated video images to frame Chavez’s supporters as the culprits in order to legitimate the coup regime.




Zuloaga’s arrest also follows the arrest on Monday of former Zulia governor Oswaldo Alvarez Paz for disseminating false information. Alvarez Paz appeared on a political talk show on Globovision accusing the Chavez government of supporting terrorism and drug trafficking, accusations which the Chavez government denies and says are part of a U.S.-backed media campaign to justify military intervention.


The 6 private tv stations worked hand in glove with the anti-Chavez coup both in demonising him and deliberately misleading citizens during the coup and after it's failure. Even so, they were allowed to continue broadcasting until 2007 and when their broadcast licence expired.

The US government is critising Venezuala's actions but seem oblivious to that of other nations


US attacks Venezuela: “press freedom” as a pretext for intervention
Washington’s concern with press freedom is highly selective. It is worth pointing out that the hue and cry it has raised over the fate of RCTV is joined by a virtual silence over the wholesale attack on the media by one of its key allies in the “war on terrorism.” Pakistani dictator Gen. Pevez Musharraf issued a decree Monday giving his government blanket power to shut down any independent television network. The regime has systematically blocked the transmission of TV stations that have reported on the growing constitutional crisis over Musharraf’s sacking of Pakistan’s chief justice.

The hypocrisy of the Bush administration’s supposed devotion to press freedom was spelled out clearly in a State Department briefing Monday. The department’s spokesman denounced “the non-democratic actions that the Venezuelan Government has taken,” called for RCTV to be “reopened” and extolled the street demonstrations organized largely by right-wing anti-government parties as a fight for “democracy.”

Asked just minutes later about the suppression of the press in Pakistan, the spokesman was exceedingly circumspect, allowing only that Washington is “watching it closely.” He continued, “This is an issue that the Pakistani people and the Pakistani Government need to resolve within the confines of their law.”

Yet this is precisely what was done in Venezuela. Matters were resolved under an existing law, which empowers the government to grant or deny privately owned broadcast corporations the right to use public airwaves to the extent that it benefits the public. RCTV has not been disbanded, nor have its directors been arrested or its equipment confiscated. Its license expired and was not renewed. Instead, the channel was given to a new public television station, TVes—Venezuela Social Television.

It is also worth noting that the government of Alan Garcia in Peru, less than two months ago, yanked the broadcasting licenses of two TV stations and three radio stations, apparently because of their support for a strike. Again, no outcry from Washington.


How about a quick review of press freedom in the good ole USA?


Venezuela, RCTV, And Media Freedom: Just The Facts, Please
Lessons In Curtailing Media Freedom

There are a number of ways to curtail press freedom. You can charge a journalist with murder and put him on death row-Mumia Abu-Jamal, for instance. You can grant special favors, privileges, and access to corporate media giants while raiding and shutting down low-power, independent radio stations, which the FCC does with some regularity. You could arrest...
(continued)



posted on Aug, 27 2010 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by JohnJasper
 



Venezuela, RCTV, And Media Freedom: Just The Facts, Please
Lessons In Curtailing Media Freedom

(continued from above)
...independent journalists at anti-war demonstrations-again, a regular occurrence. For instance, I recall my friend and Indy journalist, Jeff Imig, who has been repeatedly threatened with arrest, while recording anti-war demonstrations in Tucson, Arizona, for violating the statute against filming federal buildings. Jeff finally got arrested-for jaywalking! Corporate press, on the other hand, seems to have free reign to jaywalk and film federal buildings at these same events-behavior I and countless others have witnessed!

And then there is the Mother of All Media Manipulations: the blackout engineered by the Bush administration which blocks media from showing the arrival of body bags and coffins of newly dead soldiers "coming home" from Iraq.

Those are some pretty good ways of curtailing freedom of speech. And they're each and everyone home grown right here in the good ol' United States of America.

So what's the deal with Venezuela, anyway?

So, pardon me if I'm just a little astounded by all this noise in the media, the Bush administration, the Senate and the House, about how Venezuela is "attacking" free speech and independent media by not renewing the broadcasting license of RCTV. Perhaps even more disturbing is that this ridiculous assertion is being repeated even among some persons on the Left.


And as for your charges of being a Tyrant, see if this sounds tyrannical.


Venezuela, RCTV, And Media Freedom: Just The Facts, Please
Lessons In Curtailing Media Freedom

In April of 2002, there was a two-day, illegal coup carried out against Venezuela's electoral government, which involved the kidnapping and jailing of President Hugo Chavez. There were four major media outlets, along with others, who actively aided and abetted this coup (more later). In the intervening five years, none of them were closed, nor were any of their journalists incarcerated. Rather, the Chavez administration met with them, not to change their editorial slant, but to reach agreements preventing a repeat of such anti-democratic measure and the hyperbolic misrepresentation of facts, and also to discourage such continued infractions as the airing of pornography and cigarette commercials.


Hopefully I've adequately made my point.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by JohnJasper
The 6 private tv stations worked hand in glove with the anti-Chavez coup both in demonising him and deliberately misleading citizens during the coup and after it's failure. Even so, they were allowed to continue broadcasting until 2007 and when their broadcast licence expired.

 


Please John,

Are we talking here to the same events?

is this a contest of who tell the best novel to compete with Garcia Marquez?

In my opinion, and with all the respect you deserve, I found that what you are telling here is mere magical realism,

What coup d'etat against Hugo Chavez is that you mention?

If you are refering to the facts of 2002 it is really dared and completly biased to qualify it as a Coup d'etat, since it was actually a genuine popular revelion against a regime that it is hatred by the great majority of Venezuelans, and in that sense it was a perfectly legitimic act, it was the trully Act of the dignity of the venezuelan People claiming for the end of a Tyranny that violated the compromises any ruler assumes with the nation in a Democratic system when it takes office.

When a President takes office he swares to defend the democracy and the constitution, and Chavez neither defended the democracy, neither preserved the constitution of Venezuela in which he was elected President.

Now did Hugo Chavez respected that compromise?

Of course not, he instead has worked so hard to control through the power state the will of the venezuelan people, moreover he openly declared that his political project is to implant marxist socialism in the country and the first act of his goverment was to promise he was going to supress the democratic constitution of 1961 and change it for a new Marxist one in 1999 to give him all the extrapower he requires to erase any shadow of liberty in Venezuela and implant the same communist model of Cuba.

en.wikipedia.org...

But that was not all , he decided that it was needed to give him more extraordinary powers to bring socialism to the country and to remain in the power until 2019! so he tried to reform his own constitution agaiin in 2009,

www.coha.org...

On the protest acts of 2002 three millions of people in a free demonstration of rejection to the tiranny invaded the streets of Caracas and other cities claiming for the end of the Dictatorship, for the return to a trully Democracy.

It was the brave People the one that for 72 heroic hours defeated this neocommunist regime and it was the corrupted side of the army the one that returned Chavez to the Power, that is something extremly clear.

Now if some media decided to join their work to the popular clamor I really don't see what is the matter?

The People were entusiastically marching toward the Palace of Miraflores to express their rejection to the communists and their support to the new provitional civic goverment, that unfortunately was laterly brutally repressed by the militaries that remained loyals to the Dictator.

Now there were some militaries that decided to don't follow the orders of the Dictator to repress brutally the meetings in the streets, they decided to instead to shot the inocent common people to try to convince chavez that he must resignate in that moment to prevent more damage to the country and a civil war.


I realy don't see what is the problem with that, they were good patriots trying to deal with a so complex situation, but of course that was not a coup d'etat, since the people was marching in the streets to support their actions, to the contrary a real coup d'etat was the one of 1992, when Colonel Hugo Chavez without any popular support tried to kidnap and murder the constitutional President of Venezuela Carlos Andres Perez, a political crime that sent him various years to the jail.

Here you can read the story of the trully coup d'etat:

www.facebook.com...#!/pages/1992-Venezuelan-coup-detat-attempt/116566285058434?v=wiki#con tent

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness



[edit on 8/28/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by The angel of light
 

(PART ONE)

Originally posted by The angel of light
What coup d'etat against Hugo Chavez is that you mention?

If you are refering to the facts of 2002 it is really dared and completly biased to qualify it as a Coup d'etat, since it was actually a genuine popular revelion against a regime that it is hatred by the great majority of Venezuelans, and in that sense it was a perfectly legitimic act, it was the trully Act of the dignity of the venezuelan People claiming for the end of a Tyranny that violated the compromises any ruler assumes with the nation in a Democratic system when it takes office.


One man's coup is another man's rebellion. It just depends on which side you are on. The same is true about the 1992 failed coup/rebellion attempts. In both situations, the military was the tool used to seize power.


Originally posted by The angel of light
When a President takes office he swares to defend the democracy and the constitution, and Chavez neither defended the democracy, neither preserved the constitution of Venezuela in which he was elected President.


Angel - I think you provided the wrong links. Neither of them, which I will reference by number, actually supports the astounding claims that you make here.

1. Wiki: Constitution of Venezuela
2. Venezuela’s New Constitutional Reform 2009: If Not Chávez, then Whom? PSUV May Not Survive if Chávez Loses the Presidency


According to 1., Chavez made it quite clear that he wanted constitutional reform before being elected into office which was popularly received as evidenced by his election win and the referendum. Perhaps the population were so glad to be free of the old two-(corrupt)party system that they would say yes to anything?


1.
in the 1998 presidential elections, one of Chávez's electoral promises was to organise a referendum asking the people if they wanted to convene a National Constituent Assembly. His very first decree as president was thus to order such a referendum, which took place on 19 April. The electorate were asked two questions – whether a constituent assembly should be convened, and whether it should follow the mechanisms proposed by the president. The "yes" vote in response to these two question totalled 92% and 86%, respectively.




Originally posted by The angel of light
Now did Hugo Chavez respected that compromise?

Of course not, he instead has worked so hard to control through the power state the will of the venezuelan people, moreover he openly declared that his political project is to implant marxist socialism in the country and the first act of his goverment was to promise he was going to supress the democratic constitution of 1961 and change it for a new Marxist one in 1999 to give him all the extrapower he requires to erase any shadow of liberty in Venezuela and implant the same communist model of Cuba.


I am all for implanting socialism in the country and it is no wonder that the elite wanted to get rid of him as he was nationalising them out of business. Once again the references do not support your premise.


1.
The Constitution of 1999 was the first constitution approved by popular referendum in Venezuelan history, and summarily inaugurated the so-called "Fifth Republic" of Venezuela due to the socioeconomic changes foretold in its pages, as well as the official change in Venezuela's name from the República de Venezuela ("Republic of Venezuela") to the República Bolivariana de Venezuela ("Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela"). Major changes are made to the structure of Venezuela's government and responsibilities, while a much greater number of human rights are enshrined in the document as guaranteed to all Venezuelans – including free education up to tertiary level, free quality health care, access to a clean environment, right of minorities (especially indigenous peoples) to uphold their own traditional cultures, religions, and languages, among others. The 1999 Constitution, with 350 articles, is among the world's longest, most complicated, and most comprehensive constitutions.


Enshrining guaranteed human rights into a constitution including free education, health care, clean environment and rights of minorities and getting approved by a popular referendum. These are definitely NOT the actions of a Tyrant! This is NOT how you erase liberty nor is it anything close to the Cuban model.


2.
The website of the PSUV allows for some insight into the ruling political party. It provides a link to the Venezuelan constitution (one of Chávez’s goals has been to make certain that every Venezuelan, particularly members of the lower classes, had a personal copy of the country’s constitution), as well as interactive webpages like El Muro del Pueblo de Venezuela (The Wall of the Venezuelan People). This page provides a forum where users can write comments that are then posted on the website for everyone to view.
...
Artful in using the electronic media, Chávez created his now famous talk show Aló Presidente, where he would, on live television and radio, directly answer calls from Venezuelan citizens. Because of the show’s admitted popularity, Chávez has been using it as his own personal vehicle to communicate to his followers his current concerns and actions


And then he DOES NOT stifle liberty by providing a webpage where people can post their views for all to see AND personally hosting tv and radio phone-ins where the general population can ask him questions directly.

(CONTINUED)



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by JohnJasper
 

PART TWO

(CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST)


Originally posted by The angel of light
But that was not all , he decided that it was needed to give him more extraordinary powers to bring socialism to the country and to remain in the power until 2019! so he tried to reform his own constitution agaiin in 2009,


So all he wanted was more power for himself yet goes to the country once again for a referendum to approve constitutional changes. In 2007 he tried it and was defeated! How can you defeat a tyrannical dictator?


2.
In 2007, Chávez proposed a constitutional reform with amendments to 33 existing articles, including the possibility of unlimited presidential reelection, more powers for the national government to move forward with its plans for “21st Century Socialism,” and existence hedgings of the right of private property. Parliament proposed additional amendments to another 36 articles, and a draft text for a national referendum was prepared.

On December 3 of that year, the constitutional reform package was narrowly turned down by 51 percent of voters (CNE), which signified Chávez’s first defeat at the ballot box in the 11 elections that were carried out since he was first voted in as president in December 1998.


In a later, more successful attempt, the people voted for a change to the term of office and recall powers. From that time, they have the power to vote out a president before his term is over if they can get a majority. This was attempted in 2004 but it failed to get enough support.


Originally posted by The angel of light
On the protest acts of 2002 three millions of people in a free demonstration of rejection to the tiranny invaded the streets of Caracas and other cities claiming for the end of the Dictatorship, for the return to a trully Democracy.


Yet your sources strongly indicate that there was no tyranny so these 3 million? people must have been protesting the shift of power from the elite to the lower classes. Are you sure that you are not counting the pro-Chavez supporters that were on the street and wound up getting shot at and killed by snipers? (And why does the following Wiki reference only mention hundreds of thousands marching?)


3. Wiki: 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt (oops, they probably meant to say "rebellion")
On 9 April 2002, the Confederación de Trabajadores de Venezuela (CTV), led by Carlos Ortega called for a two-day strike. Fedecámaras joined the strike/lockout and called on all of its affiliated member businesses to shut down for 48 hours. Two days later, amid rapidly escalating tensions, hundreds of thousands of people marched to the PDVSA headquarters in defense of its recently dismissed management board. Unexpectedly, the organizers decided to re-route the march to Miraflores, the presidential palace, where a pro-Chávez demonstration was taking place.



Originally posted by The angel of light
It was the brave People the one that for 72 heroic hours defeated this neocommunist regime and it was the corrupted side of the army the one that returned Chavez to the Power, that is something extremly clear.


It is a shame that Honduras did not have a corrupted side of the army to return Zelaya to office after their coup!

I read the Wiki account of the 1992 coup and it seems a reasonable account of what probably happened. It does not support any of your accusations BUT it does appear that the coup attempt was popularly received by the citizens. People get pretty tired of corrupt governments and eventually do something about them if they can. Otherwise, they have to wait for a hero to come to their rescue. Whether Chavez is hero or criminal depends on your viewpoint. Facts are so easy to ignore when they do not agree with your opinion. I certainly discount (but not ignore) facts that differ widely with sources that I think are more reliable.

Your sources might be wrong but you chose them. Will you consider that possibly you have some views that are unfounded and you might need to question their origin?

Yours truly,

JJ


Source references:
1. Wiki: Constitution of Venezuela
2. Venezuela’s New Constitutional Reform 2009: If Not Chávez, then Whom? PSUV May Not Survive if Chávez Loses the Presidency



posted on Aug, 29 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by JohnJasper
 


John,

Of course in this times of moral relativisms it is common to listen reasons like the ones you argue, that what it is coup de etat for one man is not for other, but the fact is that the Venezuelan justice condenmed Hugo Chavez Frias to prision for at least 5 years for his attempt to defeat a constitutional goverment and even more since it was proven that his intentions were to kill the President Carlos Andres Perez.

Nevertheless, since Politics always have dirty figures, in an incredible proof of populism Rafael Caldera proposed that he would win the election to be the Perez successor he was going to offer full pardon to the militaries that were complicated in the coup de etat, something he accomplished in an insensate act of lack of Historical responsibility.

By other side no body that remains 12 years in the Presidency of State and reforms the constitution in order to assure his will to continue in that job for at least other 7 years can be classified in other way than to a Dictator, so among Carlos Andres Perez and Hugo Chavez Frias there are clear distinctions, the first one respected the constitution of the People of Venezuela and the terms for which he was elected but the later didnt respect anybody in his thrist of more power.

The National Constitution of 1961 was elaborated by the national congress of Venezuela, elected democratically for the people and acting as a national Constitutional assembly, but besides that counted with the possitive approval of the legislative assemblies of each one of all the states of the country, legislative organs that also were elected directly by the citizens of those regions, as it is clearly said in its Introduction:

pdba.georgetown.edu...

To claim tha tthe seudo Constitution of 1999 is the only one supported by the People of Venezuela in all its History is a great sophism of distraction, such a claim is not only exagerated but dramatically false.

Now returning to the discussion of the Dictatorial obssessions of Hugo Chavez frias it is good to recall that he does not respect also the sovereignity of other countries.

We have accostume ourselves to see him saying which candidate he supports in the Presidential elections of Mexico 2006, Nicaragua, Salvador, Peru, and even in Columbia 2010.

english.eluniversal.com...

The intromision of this Dictator in the external affairs of other countries is such grave that even the left parties in Columbia called him cynical and black mailer.


In the General election of Spain 2008 he even menaced the people that if they voted for Mariano Rajoy he was going to expropiate all the spanish capital of Venezuela. The spanish voted in favor to Rodriguez Zapatero, the Socialist candidate, but even after that Chavez finally decided to expropriate recently the spanish banks in Venezuela, so we are dealing with not only a blak mailer but a person whose word's value is nothing.

check it : www.latinbusinesschronicle.com...

So this is the man that you pretend to show as a very trully democratic leader, this tyrant that even wants to black mail the electors of other countries to force them to vote for whom he wants!!

But are we going to be surprised of this reactions? of course not if Chavez has menaced several times the USA to cutoff oil exportations if we continue supporting Columbia:

news.yahoo.com...

Or how about his speeches calling to the Venezuelans to be ready for war against the USA and Columbia:

rawstory.com...

But is this the end of his insanity? no, he even goes bejond, and remembering his years in the Jail when he accoustimed, in words of many people that new him at that time, to mix with his marxist and bolivarian readings also others that he found very interesting, iike the writings of Adolf Hitler, he has declared his firm will to confront the jews as enemies of the human genre:

www.commentarymagazine.com...

Now, let me finish John saying that the critics about the tyranny of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela didnt come only form the right sectors, for the ones you like to classify as priviledged people, or reactionary, also comes from the people that spent their entire lives fighting for the socialist ideals, from the democratic left and not the totalitarian one in that country, even a very well known leftist poltician like Teodoro Perkoff describe the excesses of power of Chavez in the following terms:


www.scribd.com...

No, definitively you must tell many more half truths or lies to make us comulgate with such giant stone that Hugo Chavez is a trully democratic politician.

thanks,

The Angel of Lightness




[edit on 8/29/2010 by The angel of light]



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 03:46 PM
link   
reply to post by The angel of light
 



Originally posted by The angel of light
By other side no body that remains 12 years in the Presidency of State and reforms the constitution in order to assure his will to continue in that job for at least other 7 years can be classified in other way than to a Dictator, so among Carlos Andres Perez and Hugo Chavez Frias there are clear distinctions, the first one respected the constitution of the People of Venezuela and the terms for which he was elected but the later didn't respect anybody in his thrist of more power.


You have a huge chip on your shoulder about Chavez. Why are you holding such a grudge? You have hinted that you are in the USA or an American. English is obviously not your first language (no criticism especially from me with only one language) and you're not illiterate if your education achievements are anything to go by. You must have some affiliation with Venezuala to get so worked up about him. Do you get this emotional about all the other leaders in the world who have been painted as evil tyrants, whether true or not?

I care a lot about this because it is the country of my birth that is working so hard to return Venezuala to the control of the capitalists - not because that's what the people want but because it is what the elite business leaders want. The USA is following the same foreign policy on 7 continents and 7 oceans, knocking down trade restrictions so that western corporations can rape and pillage every nation in the world. Wherever someone like Chavez stands up to them, they use every dirty trick in the book (that they wrote) to overthrow him and install one of their puppet leaders.

This is not a secret. Most of the rest of the world knows this to be true. Only Americans seem incapable of understanding this.


Originally posted by The angel of light
To claim tha tthe seudo Constitution of 1999 is the only one supported by the People of Venezuela in all its History is a great sophism of distraction, such a claim is not only exagerated but dramatically false.


It was your source! I just pointed out to you what your source said.


Originally posted by The angel of light
The National Constitution of 1961...


Sorry but I cannot read the document that you linked so will have to take your word for what it says. Please show me where it says that the people cannot agree to have a new constitution?

According to the 2007 Latin Business Chronicle article that you referenced, Chavez is going up against the central bank. He probably knows that everytime an American president has tried that, he has wound up with a bullet in him. It happened to Lincoln, Kennedy, and Reagan to mention a few!


Originally posted by The angel of light
We have accostume ourselves to see him saying which candidate he supports in the Presidential elections of Mexico 2006, Nicaragua, Salvador, Peru, and even in Columbia 2010.


Your El Universal reference stated:


"It is very important not to meddle in the domestic affairs of other countries. It is not our concern to support one candidate or another. This is a decision that voters will have to make in each country. We respect people's sovereign decision," said the US Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs Arturo Valenzuela, referring to comments made by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.


This is not even funny coming from the worst imperialist nation on the earth. They fund covert operations in countries all around the world to overthrow any leader that doesn't tow the line of US hegemony. They brought Saddam Hussein to power by supporting a coup in Iraq and then overthrew him when he started believing his own propaganda and stopped playing by US rules.


Originally posted by The angel of light
But are we going to be surprised of this reactions? of course not if Chavez has menaced several times the USA to cutoff oil exportations if we continue supporting Columbia:


Certainly you have noticed all of the concerns about Colombia's army massing at the Venezualan border and US military buildup in Colombia. Chavez knows full well what happens to countries that stand up against the US. Should he just wait until the troops cross the border before showing his strength?


From your Commentary Magazine source alleging anti-Semitism, the actual words of Chavez' speech:
"The world has enough for everybody, but it happened that some minorities—the descendants of those who crucified Christ, the descendants of those who ejected Bolívar from here and who crucified him in their own way in Santa Marta, over in Colombia—took possession of the riches of the world. A minority appropriated the world’s gold, the silver, the minerals, the waters, the good lands, the oil, and has concentrated the riches in a few hands."


FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting) pointed out that it was the Romans who crucified Christ and that no-one has ever claimed that the Jews fought against Bolivar. Bolivar, in fact, fought against the government of King Ferdinand VII of Spain, who reinstituted the anti-Semitic Spanish Inquisition when he took power in 1813.

Again I have shown you that your references do not support your extremely biased and disturbed allegations. Please take time to reflect within your Christian soul as this is bordering on insanity.

I would like to know why you're so interested in this but hopefully no-one else will be taken in by your hateful slurs on an apparently well-loved and decent man.

Thanks for your time,
JJ



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