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In Defence of Religion

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posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 12:31 PM
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I have read quite allot of antireligious threads on ATS, I always thought this was a site for debating conspiracies and not points of theology but as a Catholic and advocate of all religions I am compelled to write a thread in the defence of religion, all religion.

By far the biggest critique I have seen on ATS is the, prove there is a God question. Now I could apply the philosophy of teleology to tell you that if you take teleology far enough back one will eventually have to conclude the existence of a creator is inevitable. Or one would look at the argument for design which effectively says that, Anyone who lives and witnesses a awe as impressive as the balance of live is sustained by the intrinsic yet interconnected composition the atom’s and cells that makes up every living thing and cannot see that these things are not accidental but part of a well throughout and planed design that didn’t just happen to design themselves, is frankly stupid. Somebody, God, designed the atom, cell, tree, and ultimately mankind. Anybody who does not believe in God, no matter how intellectual he may think he is, is simply not seeing the full picture. To not believe I God, any god is limiting your perspective on life and therefore you can never be truly intelligent. IMO

Yes I know this argument is basic and some would say very unsophisticated however I am not a scholar of philosophy or theology. In any case even if you do want to critique this basic argument it does not matter because I do not have to prove the existence of God. Religious people don’t need “prove” we only need faith.

Faith for me is believing with our seeing or proving, it is the ultimate sing of trust in God and with this trust I earn his love and salvation (sorry for the Sunday sermon). If God was to be proven as being real this faith, the cornerstone of my religion and that of others would be lost.

For some of you reading this you may laugh, mock and ridicule me for defending religion, shame on you. Religion provides hope to millions if not billions of people throughout the word, it is a beacon of all that can be good in humanity. It preaches love, hope, and gives homes to the poor and needy but for some strange reason some people want to discredit these religious institutions and take it away from billions of people for no other reason than they refuse to believe in a God.

Every institution in the history of mankind has had its bad apples and wrong doers, the Catholic Church is one of these groups, I acknowledge that horrible atrocities have been carried out in its name and priests have wrongly abused children in the most atrocious way imaginable. This however does not represent anything close to the entirety of the Catholic faithful followers. The same goes for all religious institutions they all have done wrong but it is the people who are carrying out disgusting acts in the name of religion, but in truth they do not represent the entirety of the religious community. Branding everybody with the same brush like this is like saying all Manchester United fans are murders because a few of them killed somebody during a football match. Would this mean the Manchester United football club should be banished and all fans prosecuted for the actions of a few, of course not, and the same goes for religion.

Allot of people who try to discredit religion also seem to think that we are all creationists, they discount the idea that the existence of God does not automatically mean the big bang theory is wrong. After all who or what made the big bang? Religion and science do not automatically have to clash with each other.

I really don’t care if you are agnostic or atheist, I will not challenge anybody based entirely on their religious views unless it is necessary to do so, and when people start trying to disprove my faith, then am going to start challenging your views. Its fine if you don’t believe, but why do you have to ridicule those who do, and attempt to disprove our believes, if you don’t believe then why do you even care.




posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown


Ooooops, meant that whole quote thing just to be a reply.

I do appreciate the time you spent into creating your thread.

I don't have really an issue with anyone believing what they want to. What I do have issues with, is anybody, of any faith feeling a need to shove their blind faith, down my throat.

I'm not anti-religious, I just have a problem with people who use religion to push an agenda on others.

Everyone should be able to believe whatever they want to, but shut up about it already!

[edit on 31-7-2010 by Blanca Rose]

edit quote fix

[edit on 31-7-2010 by Blanca Rose]



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by Blanca Rose
 


I was wondering why you don’t that. Thanks for your honest reply,



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 




Somebody, God, designed the atom, cell, tree, and ultimately mankind. Anybody who does not believe in God, no matter how intellectual he may think he is, is simply not seeing the full picture.


How's that?

We've studied atoms, cells, trees and mankind in astonishing detail.

Guess how much evidence we found that any of them were designed - None.

Guess how much evidence we found for perfectly natural causes - plenty.

All the evidence suggests that life came about naturally, no God or designer needed, just the elegant machinery of nature itself. Postulating that there is a God simply because things are vastly complex is poor reasoning.



Religious people don’t need “prove” we only need faith.


Therein lies one of the fundamental problems with religion. Its reliance of faith which is little more than extreme gullibility. You are taught there is a man in the sky and you have accepted that without proof. What a silly and gullible thing.




it is the ultimate sing of trust in God and with this trust I earn his love and salvation (sorry for the Sunday sermon)


God's love, in the Christian faith, is meant to be unconditional. Saying that you must be gullible and believe in him on faith alone in order to earn his love makes his love and salvation CONDITIONAL.

Clearly something is wrong here that God is requiring you be gullible enough to believe in him without proof. After all God wouldn't want you to believe in Unicorns without proof would he? Would he want you to buy into Hinduism or Islam without proof as well? It seems a double-standard that he does not have to provide proof, even though he is the one true God, and he leaves you stranded in a world of similar religions who also have no proof. How confusing...

Religion provides hope eh?

As does the idea that Santa Claus will reward you on Christmas for good behavior, boy does that warm the hearts of children around the world. It preaches love? Sure it does... sometimes, when at its best. But you're ignoring the hateful bigoted speech that comes out of many religions, the angry dogmatic fundamentalists holding signs that say God Hates Gays or Death to America. It also teaches HELLFIRE, damnation, angry vengeful gods smiting people who do not worship the same deity... Hope is not all that is being peddled in churches.

To belittle the corruption of the Catholic church into "a few bad apples" is absurd. The entire Church, all the way up to the Pope, have protected people who abuse children. All the more reason to question God's existence, the fact that he is apparently allowing people to be molested by those parading themselves as his servants. Of course this doesn't mean that all Catholics themselves are bad, certainly not, but until these pedophiles are prosecuted there will be anger directed at the Church.



Religion and science do not automatically have to clash with each other.


I agree wholeheartedly, but try telling that to the Creationists trying to teach fairy tales in our classrooms (at least here in America)



and when people start trying to disprove my faith, then am going to start challenging your views


No one has to disprove faith. It's already a baseless assertion with no evidence behind it. As such it is the person making a claim who holds the burden of proof and if the claim is faith based they are already admitting they have no facts or evidence to support their position.



but why do you have to ridicule those who do


I generally don't ridicule believers, mainly because I used to be one, but that doesn't stop me from tearing to shreds their arguments. And why oppose them, you might ask?

Because of 911, religious extremism, religious fundamentalism, creationists trying to get into the classroom

And also because as a former believer who has, to borrow a phrase from the religious "seen the light" I would be a jerk to not point out to believers the same logic, questioning and reasoning that led to me giving up my faith. To leave them trapped in their ignorance would be in direct violation of the ATS motto.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:01 PM
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I have yet to hear one valid defence on behalf of religion to sway my view (or anyone free of religious brainwashing having common sense) that religion is something the planet would have been much better a place to exist upon had that nonsense never been "created".

Good folks do not need some ancient nonsense to adhere to in order to be ethical and moral people. But religion has certainty caused terrible behavior in men much more than good.

Wipe away the brainwashing, and it will become clear that mankind would have been better without it.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:05 PM
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Every institution in the history of mankind has had its bad apples and wrong doers, the Catholic Church is one of these groups, I acknowledge that horrible atrocities have been carried out in its name and priests have wrongly abused children in the most atrocious way imaginable. This however does not represent anything close to the entirety of the Catholic faithful followers. The same goes for all religious institutions they all have done wrong but it is the people who are carrying out disgusting acts in the name of religion, but in truth they do not represent the entirety of the religious community. Branding everybody with the same brush like this is like saying all Manchester United fans are murders because a few of them killed somebody during a football match. Would this mean the Manchester United football club should be banished and all fans prosecuted for the actions of a few, of course not, and the same goes for religion.


Damn boy. Certainly come out of your corner know 'in how to land some shots. This reminds me of when Ali took down Foreman in 8. First round, the bell rings, Ali charges Forman AND LANDS AN OVER HAND RIGHT!
HE LANDED AN OVER HAND RIGHT!..out of the gate ladies and gentlemen.......
If you know anything about boxing Ali totally insulted and humiliated Forman when he did that. Professional boxers know what I mean. No one is suposed to be able to
pull that off, on a professional boxer. Not off topic , just meta euphoric.


[edit on 31-7-2010 by randyvs]



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


Despite you disagreeing with me I found your post quite interesting, I am not going to try to convert you back to religion, which would be incredibly arrogant of me. Rather I am curious as to why you converted to atheism.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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I think you might want to check the conspiracies in religion forum and reality one more time. The number of religious threads with no point but to bash atheism by far outweigh any other category you can make in that forum.

You are right, this is a conspiracy website. It has become overrun with "atheists are wrong" "atheists are stupid" "atheists, try to prove your case while I ignore what you post and just mock you" "atheists are going to hell and I'm not, nyah nyah!" "atheists, what is wrong with you people" type threads of late.

Thanks for going to the pointless effort of making yet another.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by SunIsSon
 


I don’t think it is fair to say that mankind would have been better without religion, religion has contribute much to the history of man and in its absence things would be very different. Therefore it is impossible to say one way or the other it might have been better and it might have been far worse, IMO it would have been worse.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 


It wasn't really a conversion. It was a gradual process of coming to terms with reality and loosing my fundamentalist beliefs.

I was raised to believe the Bible was the exact Word of God but when I actually read the book it made no sense. The God it depicted was downright evil, smiting people left and right, killing infants (or ordering them to be killed), condoning slavery, letting the devil torment Job, etc.

Eventually I became a Deist but eventually even that distant view of God didn't serve any purpose or have any evidence so I am now an agnostic-atheist.

Reality just doesn't line up with Christianity or the Bible and believing it out of fear of some eternal Hellfire isn't much different than believing I'll get a lump of coal in my stocking at Christmas if I'm bad.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
And also because as a former believer who has, to borrow a phrase from the religious "seen the light"
if you actually "saw said light" you wouldn't be against God.


Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

How's that?

We've studied atoms, cells, trees and mankind in astonishing detail.


You cannot tell what a mans face looks like by feeling his hand. Likewise, you cannot study something that isn't in the physical world, with physical instruments.


Originally posted by SunIsSon
I have yet to hear one valid defence on behalf of religion to sway my view (or anyone free of religious brainwashing having common sense) that religion is something the planet would have been much better a place to exist upon had that nonsense never been "created".
No. 1 week ago I was hardly religious, something happened and I became spiritual. Religion is an extension of spirituality, and expresses its teachings in stories and such.

it is peoples ego that starts wars and hate, with the self-mental notion that "my religion is right, everyone elses is wrong" If people learned true balance they would realise all religions teach love.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by alien101]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by Blanca Rose
 


It is quite interesting to me that believers in evolution shove their blind faith in a belief that macro evolution is true that chemical evolution is true that the big bang is true.

When all these beliefs are faith based they are only interpretations of visible evidence which can also be interpreted with a One God belief and show that God is the reason for it all.

You see most blind faith is from those who do not accept or believe in God as those who do see his handy work, and realize that he did it as said in the Bible.
With that said there really is not any blind faith on my part.

It really is on the side of unbelief that blind faith steps in as they can clearly see that only intelligence could create everything and not random acts of happenstance; but they refuse to accept that the Bible is true as if it is then there must be rules to live by and they do not wish to follow these rules.
Which would greatly reduce their worldly pursuits.

Evolution is a blind faith science that has never been testable or repeatable.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by kevinunknown
 


There is also a lot of

"God exists here's proof"

"The problem with atheists"

And many anti-gay religious threads

etc

It goes both ways. The reason that there is so much of a heated debate on the topic is because people will fight hand and tooth for their belief. Personally I dont have a problem with religion, but if someone attacks atheism (sorry, shouldve said im athesit) then I will defend it. The ideals of religion are good, but they are rarely followed, and the amount of hate towards certain groups not of that religion are immoral. Just because someone is religious, does not make them a good person.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by alien101
 




if you actually "saw said light" you wouldn't be against God.




I'm against God about as much as I'm against the Tooth Fairy, Lord Voldemort and Darth Vader, meaning not at all. It is very difficult to be against a fictional character.

I am, however, pitted against fundamentalist Christianity and the scientific illiteracy and intolerance it tends to breed.




Likewise, you cannot study something that isn't in the physical world, with physical instruments.


I hear this kind of stuff from believers all the time. If God is outside the natural realm and has NO effect on it than believing in God is meaningless and pointless. If God, however, does have an effect on the real world, EVEN IF HE HIMSELF IS OUTSIDE IT, that effect would be something we cold test or measure. As such we've never found anything pointing us in the direction of a God.



it is peoples ego that starts wars and hate


I'm not sure what religion you are from but religion is one of the main causes of war and hate. In the Old Testament God is depicted as routinely sending the Israelites out on genocidal missions to wipe civilizations from the map (including killing their children). I think the group-think of religion, or politics for that matter, is far more dangerous than one individual's ego.




they would realise all religions teach love.


Except for Islam, which teaches that apostates and many others should be put to death.

And the Old Testament (believed by Jews and many Christians) which says that people who work on the Sabbath, aren't virgins on their wedding night, etc, should be put to death.

Even Jesus, the so called Prince of Peace, admitted that he came not to bring peace but to bring a sword and that he would cause division in people's families.

There are a handful of lovely philosophical ideas in most, if not all, religious texts but many of them are also filled with hate, war, bloodshed. They contain both the best and worst of our ancestor's traits. They lead to crusades, inquisitions, tyranny, to absurd punishments for simple sins...

Religion's all teach love? :shk:



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