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PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

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posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy

If I believe there is, I would be a theist.

If I BELIEVE that there isn't, I would be an atheist.


I think this comparison is what leads people to the notion that atheism is a belief. To me this is an issue of placing the negative in the incorrect place. One would either believe there is a god or disbelieve there is a god.

One could also accept there is no god, or insist there is no god or demonstrate that there is no god. They would still be atheists and not require the employment of belief.




posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:41 PM
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Whats the point of the people fighting here? this is a "no its soda!" "no its pop!" situation, you both could be right, but who cares? As to the beginning post I agree.

I dont believe in religion, but i believe in a higher being or higher place or dimension. I dont think that you just die and its over, because if that was the case, there is a time before you were born, why after so long do you just materialize in this time/space/dimension? but thats just my opinion.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by adjensen
 


I could care less what definition was used hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Agnostic and Gnostic deal with knowledge on the subject of god(s)

Atheism and theism deal with belief on the subject of god(s).


Well, it's still in use, describing the same set of beliefs, today. You can't be that careless with your choice of words -- look what this thread has turned into.

Gnosticism is a specific set of beliefs (which I won't bore you with, but I suspect that Hubbard spent a bit of time purloining a few of them,) it is not a general word. Applying it in the manner you want to, as simply the opposite of agnosticism, is an improper use of the word. If you REALLY need a reason, consider that it will open the door to whiners (like me) to shoot holes in whatever you're trying to make the case for.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by -PLB-
It matters because it is wrong. Atheism = a lack of believe. If you define it as a disbelieve, and you define disbelieve as a belief in something, you are manipulating the meaning of atheism.


Probably for the same reasons that you continue to ignore the dictionary definition of Atheist. Someone who DOES NOT BELIEVE in God, and not someone who LACKS BELIEF in God. An Atheist is not lacking in belief. An Atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Daniem
Because he may not know the truth about the existance of gods, devils and angels


No that is completely different. Someone who has no knowledge of Gods(s) cannot be an Atheist as he/she is not aware of the concept of God(s)



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan

Probably for the same reasons that you continue to ignore the dictionary definition of Atheist. Someone who DOES NOT BELIEVE in God, and not someone who LACKS BELIEF in God. An Atheist is not lacking in belief. An Atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist.


You've just directly contradicted the very definition of atheist that you provided. "Does not believe" is not the same thing as "believe".



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by Quasar_La-Zar
Whats the point of the people fighting here? this is a "no its soda!" "no its pop!" situation, you both could be right, but who cares? As to the beginning post I agree.


The words used as definition are important, for people who like to argue, because there's nothing else to argue about. It's a belief system, you either believe or you don't, and beyond that, there's shouting and sniggling and name calling, because among hard core types on both sides (the only ones that get into these sorts of scrapes,) no one is going to be changing their minds based on Internet forum posts.

I generally look at the rationale behind the argument, rather than what the argument appears to be about, as that will usually tell you "what the point" is.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan

Probably for the same reasons that you continue to ignore the dictionary definition of Atheist. Someone who DOES NOT BELIEVE in God, and not someone who LACKS BELIEF in God. An Atheist is not lacking in belief. An Atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist.


You too are literally claiming that not believing is believing. When I do not believe in something, I lack the believe.

I just can not grasp this discussion. It is so obvious that not doing something means you are actually not doing it. Yet people keep insisting when you are not doing something you are actually doing it. It is just spooky.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by PuterMan

Probably for the same reasons that you continue to ignore the dictionary definition of Atheist. Someone who DOES NOT BELIEVE in God, and not someone who LACKS BELIEF in God. An Atheist is not lacking in belief. An Atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist.


You've just directly contradicted the very definition of atheist that you provided. "Does not believe" is not the same thing as "believe".


No, "does not believe in God" is the same as "believes God does not exist".

If you do not believe in an abstract concept then to all intents and purposes that does not exist. No conflict of definition that I can see.

Read what I said in the post and not what you imagine I said.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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OK, why is this so difficult.

"Believes that X does not exist" is exactly the same as "Does not believe that X exists"

What is difficult to grasp about that? In both of those terms there is no 'lack of belief'. Belief is applied in both cases.

You have to separate as I have said before 'belief' from 'a belief'



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by PuterMan

Probably for the same reasons that you continue to ignore the dictionary definition of Atheist. Someone who DOES NOT BELIEVE in God, and not someone who LACKS BELIEF in God. An Atheist is not lacking in belief. An Atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist.


You've just directly contradicted the very definition of atheist that you provided. "Does not believe" is not the same thing as "believe".


No, "does not believe in God" is the same as "believes God does not exist".

If you do not believe in an abstract concept then to all intents and purposes that does not exist. No conflict of definition that I can see.

Read what I said in the post and not what you imagine I said.


I'm looking at what you actually wrote and it's easy because you placed some of it in all caps. The definition you quoted first your wrote "DOES NOT BELIEVE". Then, you added your own interpretation that this statement actually meant that an atheist "BELIEVES" something.

Again, "does not believe" is not the same as "believe". It appears that in order to make the presumption that atheism is a belief work you are shifting the negative from one part of the actual definition to another part of your reinterpretation. "Not A" does not equal "A" in any sense, not even by one's redefinition of terms.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan
OK, why is this so difficult.

"Believes that X does not exist" is exactly the same as "Does not believe that X exists"

What is difficult to grasp about that? In both of those terms there is no 'lack of belief'. Belief is applied in both cases.

You have to separate as I have said before 'belief' from 'a belief'


One statement provides a positive assertion about a negative event. The other provides a denial of an assertion. There is a difference.

As I've already pointed out, one can be an atheist without belief entering the equation. One can simply accept that there is no god. One can insist it, positively assert it or demonstrate it also. These things do not require any belief but DO require disbelief.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



To me this is an issue of placing the negative in the incorrect place.


According to who????



You crack me up.


Keep twisting....keep turning....but you still have a belief.

Sorry



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan
OK, why is this so difficult.

"Believes that X does not exist" is exactly the same as "Does not believe that X exists"

What is difficult to grasp about that? In both of those terms there is no 'lack of belief'. Belief is applied in both cases.

You have to separate as I have said before 'belief' from 'a belief'


It is not the same. The words are in a different order.

Understanding that a strawberry is not yellow is not the same as not understanding that a strawberry is yellow.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 02:59 PM
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I guess I didn't quit.

traditionaldrummer has NO BELIEF that god exists.

In this light I would like to ask him this question:

Do you believe this statement?

God does not exist.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 03:18 PM
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Sod this I'm converting, I am now an agnostic seventh day scientologist. My nongod is bigger than your deity!



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
Sod this I'm converting, I am now an agnostic seventh day scientologist. My nongod is bigger than your deity!


LOVE IT!!!


But I don't have a deity, only a partner. Mm.............



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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Who is this God you are all constantly starting new threads to tell people about anyway? Never heard of him. Can someone fill me in real quick so I can be up to speed on this conversation. It must be important to have 3 dozen threads on the exact same topic.

So who is this God person and why should I "believe" in him?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by c g henderson
So who is this God person and why should I "believe" in him?


As far as I am aware this thread is about whether Atheism is a belief or not.

As to 'this God person' I have no idea as I am an Atheist, but one poster did suggest that this might be him**

**apologies to the believers - a joke OK



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by c g henderson
So who is this God person and why should I "believe" in him?


As far as I am aware this thread is about whether Atheism is a belief or not.


The problem is that it is clearly NOT a belief but in reading this thread many people have claimed it is a belief in that there is no this God guy as if you have to know of him first, then reject him to be an atheist so I have to ask who he is to get so many so confused.



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