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PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

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posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by -PLB-
 



It seems to me that you are manipulating words to fit your agenda. Lack of belief that something exists != belief that something doesn't exist.

What you say is just plain false and manipulative. Are you a fundamentalist?


REALLY???? Well who just changed "disbelief" to "lack of belief"??? Seems like we have another word shifter...tell me...do you use math concepts on words too? Can you tell me how to divide the word "silly" by the word "smile"?


No...I am not a fundamentalists...nor am I an atheists...I don't go to the extremes of the spectrum...that is where logic dies.

Nothing is false about it...I can defend my position very easily without tyring to use synonyms, or antonyms, or math concepts on words, or replacing words with other words.

My position is quite simple...you have knowledge on a topic...you have processed it...and you have come to a conclusion...have you not???

That conclusion is your....gasp....belief on the topic. It's not right or wrong...it is just your belief on the matter.

Why does that word seem to scare you so much...tell me...what is wrong with a belief???




posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



A synonym of disbelief is also "incredulity". Are you also going to explain to us how incredulity is actually credulity?


Oh...so we have moved on to synonyms huh?

Let's look at synonyms of "belief"


acceptance, admission, assent, assumption, assurance, avowal, axiom, certainty, conclusion, confidence, conjecture, conviction, credence, credit, deduction, divination, expectation, faith, fancy, feeling, guess, hope, hypothesis, idea, impression, intuition, judgment, knowledge, mind, mindset, notion, opinion, persuasion, position, postulation, presumption, presupposition, profession, reliance, supposition, surmise, suspicion, theorem, theory, thesis, thinking, trust, understanding, view


So do you all of those are interchangeable with belief? And Athiests are just the antonym of that word?

How about "certainty" an antonym is "doubt":
Theist: Certain God Exist
Atheist: Doubt God Exist

Doesn't sound like the definition for Atheists.

How about "conclusion" an antonym is "introduce":
Theists: Concludes that God Exist
Atheists: Introduce that God Exists

hmmm...I think I'll start using that one...since you know...I'm playing by your rules and we can interchange synonyms and then the antonym is the atheists stance.


Shall I go on...or do you see how silly this is getting?


You didn't answer me if you see how alike you are to a religous fundamentalist trying to twist and turn definitions, synonyms, using "word logic" just to try to maintain a position that doesn't make sense???


I thought this was silly to begin with. So I suppose that since you did not answer the question that you quoted that you understand that claiming "incredulity" is the same as "credulity" is as illogical as claiming that "disbelief" is the same as "belief". Thank you for illustrating my point.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 
Star that post too.

Your descent into silliness was appropriate and very accurate!

Never seen you being silly before. A pleasant change.



[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 


Wrong.

The words Gnostic and agnostic have to do with knowledge, not belief.

An agnostic theist is one who believes in god(s) but doesn't assert it as knowledge.

An agnostic athesit (me) is one who does not believe in a god but makes no claim to knowledge on whether they exist or not.

Neither is a claim to knowledge.

Gnostic Theists are those that believe in God and either assert knowledge that god exists or that God is knowable.

Gnostic Atheists (aka Strong Atheists) assert that the statement "There is at least 1 God" is false. They are the ones who deny the existence of God entirely.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:35 PM
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Question: Can one BELIEVE that something does NOT exist?

As in a god?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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If you disbelieve in God then you believe that God doesn't exist. Either God exists or he doesn't, and you either believe or you don't.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


The only way to fight word math is with sillyness.




posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Gnostic Theists are those that believe in God and either assert knowledge that god exists or that God is knowable.

Gnostic Atheists (aka Strong Atheists) assert that the statement "There is at least 1 God is false". They are the ones who deny the existence of God entirely.


As I noted earlier, because the term "Gnostic" was appropriated thousands of years ago for a very specific belief, it would be wise to dismiss that word from your definitions. To keep in theme with the thread, maybe go with "disagnostic", lol.

Again, the relationship between "agnostic" and "gnostic" and between "atheist" and "theist" is not even remotely the same thing.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by -PLB-
 



It seems to me that you are manipulating words to fit your agenda. Lack of belief that something exists != belief that something doesn't exist.

What you say is just plain false and manipulative. Are you a fundamentalist?


REALLY???? Well who just changed "disbelief" to "lack of belief"??? Seems like we have another word shifter...tell me...do you use math concepts on words too? Can you tell me how to divide the word "silly" by the word "smile"?


No...I am not a fundamentalists...nor am I an atheists...I don't go to the extremes of the spectrum...that is where logic dies.

Nothing is false about it...I can defend my position very easily without tyring to use synonyms, or antonyms, or math concepts on words, or replacing words with other words.

My position is quite simple...you have knowledge on a topic...you have processed it...and you have come to a conclusion...have you not???

That conclusion is your....gasp....belief on the topic. It's not right or wrong...it is just your belief on the matter.

Why does that word seem to scare you so much...tell me...what is wrong with a belief???


It matters because it is wrong. Atheism = a lack of believe. If you define it as a disbelieve, and you define disbelieve as a belief in something, you are manipulating the meaning of atheism.

If you insist on calling atheism a belief, be my guest. But my question then is, why do you insist doing that?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I could care less what definition was used hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Agnostic and Gnostic deal with knowledge on the subject of god(s)

Atheism and theism deal with belief on the subject of god(s).



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by ChickenPie
 




How is atheism not a belief?


Because he may not know the truth about the existance of gods, devils and angels.. and since he hasnt found any evidence for their existence, he's effectivly an atheist.

As you can see, this means he is not an atheist with a belief


Its the same with aliens. I dont know if they exist out there, and since i have no reason to believe they do, i dont believe in them. This does of course not mean that i believe that aliens do not exist. I do not know.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by -PLB-
 



It matters because it is wrong. Atheism = a lack of believe. If you define it as a disbelieve, and you define disbelieve as a belief in something, you are manipulating the meaning of atheism.

If you insist on calling atheism a belief, be my guest. But my question then is, why do you insist doing that?


You can't have a "lack of belief" in something you have knowledge of. You have knowledge of the concept of god. You have three options.

1) You believe in the concept of god.

2) You don't know if you believe in the concept of god.

3) You do not believe in the concept of god.

If you choose one of those...then that is your belief. The only way you can say you have a "lack of belief" is to somehow say you don't subscribe to any of those...not sure how you do that once you have knowledge of the concept.

Like a said...some guy...born all alone in a jungle that has no knowledge of the concept of god is an Atheist that has a lack of beleif. If someone walks up to him and tells him about god...he will take that information and choose one of the three options above...if he chooses that he does not believe in the concept of god...he is still an atheist...but now he has a BELIEF about the concept of god.


So tell me...do you subscribe to one of the three options above? Or is you "lack of belief" so complete that you are just ignorant (meaning lack of knowledge...not an insult) on the concept of god?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by OutKast Searcher]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
You can't have a "lack of belief" in something you have knowledge of.


Yes you can. It's called "disbelief".

from this link


disbelief - doubt about the truth of something


This definition acknowledges that one has a concept of something and doubts the truth of it.

I would recommend that you stop making up your own definitions and parameters in order to make your assumption that atheism is a belief work.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 





If you disbelieve in God then you believe that God doesn't exist. Either God exists or he doesn't, and you either believe or you don't.


No.
I am not a theist.

I have found no reason to believe there are any gods.
They might exist.
I dont know.

I am an atheist.
I do not believe god does not exist.
I am still an atheist.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 




You can't have a "lack of belief" in something you have knowledge of.


One word:

Creationists.

Creationists have knowledge of the concept of evolution, but they lack belief in it.

I have knowledge of the idea of alien abductions, but I lack belief in them.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by -PLB-
 



It matters because it is wrong. Atheism = a lack of believe. If you define it as a disbelieve, and you define disbelieve as a belief in something, you are manipulating the meaning of atheism.

If you insist on calling atheism a belief, be my guest. But my question then is, why do you insist doing that?


You can't have a "lack of belief" in something you have knowledge of. You have knowledge of the concept of god. You have three options.

1) You believe in the concept of god.

2) You don't know if you believe in the concept of god.

3) You do not believe in the concept of god.

If you choose one of those...then that is your belief. The only way you can say you have a "lack of belief" is to somehow say you don't subscribe to any of those...not sure how you do that once you have knowledge of the concept.

Like a said...some guy...born all alone in a jungle that has no knowledge of the concept of god is an Atheist that has a lack of beleif. If someone walks up to him and tells him about god...he will take that information and choose one of the three options above...if he chooses that he does not believe in the concept of god...he is still an atheist...but now he has a BELIEF about the concept of god.


So tell me...do you subscribe to one of the three options above? Or is you "lack of belief" so complete that you are just ignorant (meaning lack of knowledge...not an insult) on the concept of god?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by OutKast Searcher]


You say "You do not believe in the concept of god." followed by "If you choose one of those...then that is your belief"

You are literally saying that not believing is a belief. I have no comments on this gibberish, it makes no sense whatsoever. Is not knowing knowledge? Is not thinking a thought? Is not sleeping a nap? Is not wanting a desire?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by ChickenPie
 


While you convince them of that, I'll try my best at convincing the people that a spaghetti monster exists. You can not disprove the glorious spaghetti monster.

In all honesty, If you look at the "evidence" pointing toward either a god existing or a godless world, I would have to say the latter has the strongest case. Last time I saw a miraculous act, a godly being, or non-hypocritical verses from holy text was... never...

Honestly, I do believe in something as an Atheist. I believe that anyone who argues on the side of religion (especially Christians) has not fully read their holy text. I strongly believe the rulers of the world have changed the image and behavior of "God" to better fit in with the direction they needed society to take. This is why we go from a hateful murderous god to a sandal-wearing lover of all things. Meanwhile the original god was regarded as "perfect" no?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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I could care less what definition was used hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Agnostic and Gnostic deal with knowledge on the subject of god(s)

Atheism and theism deal with belief on the subject of god(s).

Well, then, you might consider starting to care.

The Gnostics were a particular religious group. The "knowledge" that gave them their name was not about the existence of gods, which is the only aspect of gods to which agnostic refers.

The term has not passed out of frequent current use. It is unavailable, then, for you to use differently.

Agnostic is as much about belief as about knowledge. It is an English word coined from Greek roots, not a Greek phrase imported into English. It doesn't mean "without knowledge," it is called "without knowledge."

Atheism, theism, and agnosticism all concern beliefs about the existence of gods. Some individual adherents make knowledge claims. Taken together, all the knowledge claims asserted by individual adherents are inconsistent with one another.

So, somebody is claiming knowledge that is untrue. Alas, we don't know whose "knowledge" isn't knowledge.

Best to call it all belief, then. That is something whose presence or absence can be verified. Knowledge in this domain? Not verifiable.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
Not really. Unicorns and fairies, like gods, are generally considered supernatural


Way too serious. They are real


(It was tongue in cheek)



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 01:27 PM
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GOD/GODS

There either is or there isn't.

If I believe there is, I would be a theist.

If I BELIEVE that there isn't, I would be an atheist.

Some here don't have a belief regarding this, just what are they?

We have heard that gnosticism involves knowledge agnosticism involves lack thereof.

Some here have a lack of belief.

Okay, I have wasted enough time, I quit.


[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]




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