It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

page: 14
8
<< 11  12  13    15  16  17 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie
 




then his assertion is partly faith based.


Is the assertion that Unicorns probably don't exist also faith based? What about fairies? It doesn't take faith to lack belief in something for which there is no evidence.

Faith itself in this context refers to a belief for which there is no evidence.

While I agree that the assertion "There is no God" requires faith I do not think the statement "I do not believe in God" or "There is no evidence of God and therefore I lack faith or belief in him" requires faith.


Ooh! Almost! "There is no evidence of God" is an absolute. You would need to change that to something like "I have seen no evidence of God". Both "There is no God" and "There is no evidence of God" are absolute statements and cannot be made as statement of fact.

Saying that "unicorns probably don't exist" isn't an absolute, so you can say it without any evidence, as you've left the door open for the chance that they do. Though, because of the qualifier, it's merely an opinion, not a statement of fact.




posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:33 AM
link   
reply to post by adjensen
 




Ooh! Almost! "There is no evidence of God" is an absolute. You would need to change that to something like "I have seen no evidence of God".


Very well then. Change it to "To my knowledge no objective evidence of god has ever been found".

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to go back and edit my post


reply to post by PuterMan
 




Unicorns and fairies, now that is a different matter.


Not really. Unicorns and fairies, like gods, are generally considered supernatural and are not backed up by scientific or objectively verifiable evidence. They are similar with the god question as they, like god, seem mythical and imaginary. Because of this it doesn't take any faith to disbelieve in them though it would take faith to state they absolutely do or do not exist.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by IamBoon
 


Your first point is correct and I don’t think you’ll get anyone disagreeing however your second is not.

You say that atheism is a belief even when an actual atheist says that theirs is a lack of belief? Surely it is for the individual to state their opinion.

Breaking the word down into its constituent morphemes the definition is clear; the prefix “a” means “lacking”, “not” or “without”; the word theism means the belief in at least one deity. Thus atheism literally means without belief in a deity.

Some atheist may indeed believe that a god or gods categorically do not exist but the word atheism should be taken to confer that belief.

I agree with point three though I do think it is rooted in logic.


This is where the confusion lies....

Atheism is the belief that something doesn't exists. i.e. I believe that their is no god.

You can't not believe something without believing that it doesn't exist.

Here is the problem, some people espousing atheism believe that by also espousing that it is not a belief that the concept that it is not a belief lends it more credence. So is it the lack of belief in something, yes, but because of the very nature of the belief in question, the fact that it is a lack of belief in and of itself does not lend it any more credence than the belief.

Jaden



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:42 AM
link   
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



"not believe" does not equal "believe"

"disbelief" does not equal "belief"

"not A" does not equal "A"


I've seen you use this many times...seems you have yourself convinced of something.

"disbelief" is just belief in the negation of the original belief.

You are attempting to apply logical constructs to English words...that isn't a very smart thing to do.

What is the word or words for "belief" in other languages? Is there always a "disbelief" antonym that just puts a nice little negative prefix on the word??? If not...do atheists that only speak that language have a belief...but since you speak english you do not?

You can't see "dis" and just replace "non" or "not"...the English language is poor at so many things...this is one of them.

You have replaced "dis" with "not"...how did you come to that great logical leap? And then you continue to compare "words" with an mathmatical equals sign.

Twisting....Turning...Twisting...Turning....all just to say you don't have an active belief.

I feel bad for you...I really do...having a "belief" is not a bad thing...even if you don't have evidence for it. It's ok to be wrong...you already are on so many things but you just don't know it...we all are.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Atheism is the belief that something doesn't exists. i.e. I believe that their is no god.


Uhhhh. No.

Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:48 AM
link   
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


Not me . I'm always right

Jaden



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Atheism is the belief that something doesn't exists. i.e. I believe that their is no god.


Uhhhh. No.

Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.

If you have no belief regarding a deity, then you are agnostic, because you don't know what to believe.

Are you an atheist or are you an agnostic?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:50 AM
link   
reply to post by PuterMan
 



See the socks analogy. I don't see this in the same class. Not knowing comes under agnosticism in my book.


But if you can’t know then you can’t believe thus there is a lack of belief so leading to agnostic atheism.


No, the 'a' makes a difference to the statement.


You can consider the omission of “a” as being for reasons of brevity and not intended to infer any meaning.

Open,

I am still waiting for someone to tell the board what belief is involved in a lack of belief in god without saying “you believe that god doesn’t exist”.

reply to post by Masterjaden
 


With respect that has been made and refuted numerous times in this thread.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



"not believe" does not equal "believe"

"disbelief" does not equal "belief"

"not A" does not equal "A"


I've seen you use this many times...seems you have yourself convinced of something.

"disbelief" is just belief in the negation of the original belief.

You are attempting to apply logical constructs to English words...that isn't a very smart thing to do.

What is the word or words for "belief" in other languages? Is there always a "disbelief" antonym that just puts a nice little negative prefix on the word??? If not...do atheists that only speak that language have a belief...but since you speak english you do not?

You can't see "dis" and just replace "non" or "not"...the English language is poor at so many things...this is one of them.

You have replaced "dis" with "not"...how did you come to that great logical leap? And then you continue to compare "words" with an mathmatical equals sign.

Twisting....Turning...Twisting...Turning....all just to say you don't have an active belief.

I feel bad for you...I really do...having a "belief" is not a bad thing...even if you don't have evidence for it. It's ok to be wrong...you already are on so many things but you just don't know it...we all are.


Oh, of course. the english language is completely foolish and its proper application is illogical to use.

And since I'm foolish that way let's look at your definition of disbelief: "belief in the negation of the original belief". That makes little sense but let's be foolish and look at the actual english language definition of belief:


disbelief - doubt about the truth of something


That's much different than your definition and says nothing of "belief".

here's another:


disbelief - a rejection of belief


Although this mentions the word "belief", this indicates the exact opposite of "belief". Hence, my logical argument that disbelief does not equal belief. A synonym of disbelief is also "incredulity". Are you also going to explain to us how incredulity is actually credulity?

Please do, and this time see if you can make your point without peppering your post with ad hominem.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy
If you have no belief regarding a deity, then you are agnostic, because you don't know what to believe.

Are you an atheist or are you an agnostic?


I remain devoid of beliefs on the subject of deities.

You'll have to assign what you feel is the appropriate word.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 11:59 AM
link   
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 
Ah, finally!

I dub thee......

SIR AGNOSTIC!



Okay folks, go home.

Nothing to see here, he's agnostic.

ETA: You can add that to your signature when you have time, I believe the Order of the Garter deems it necessary.



[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Atheism is the belief that something doesn't exists. i.e. I believe that their is no god.


Uhhhh. No.

Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.

If you have no belief regarding a deity, then you are agnostic, because you don't know what to believe.

Are you an atheist or are you an agnostic?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]


Me???, I'm neither. I"m a theist. Although most other theists would disagree with me if I were to describe in detail what I actually DO believe.

JAden



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 
Ah, finally!

I dub thee......

SIR AGNOSTIC!



Okay folks, go home.

Nothing to see here, he's agnostic.

ETA: You can add that to your signature when you have time, I believe the Order of the Garter deems it necessary.


Thank you, sir. I was wanting to use a "stage name" on my CDs instead of my real name and I believe you have just nailed one down for me. Free backstage passes and hooker groupies for you.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:04 PM
link   
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.



Since you like to use math rules and apply them to language...I'm just gonna go ahead and manipulate your statement

I'm going to take your "Not" in disbelief and move it over to "does"...because it's just like taking the "-1" and moving it to another number in math....like -20 = 2 * -5 * 2 = 2 * 5 * -2.

So Atheism = disbelief that something does exist = beleif that something doesn't exist.

See how that works....Language math is fun...because we make up our own rules to fit our agenda.


BTW...you know who else plays with semantics to fit their agenda....religious fundamentalist...see how much you two are alike?? Both thinking you are absolutly right...and willing to make silly statments, redefine words, and play semantics just to not admit to something.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Atheism is the belief that something doesn't exists. i.e. I believe that their is no god.


Uhhhh. No.

Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.

If you have no belief regarding a deity, then you are agnostic, because you don't know what to believe.

Are you an atheist or are you an agnostic?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]


oh you meant traditional drummer. He is an Capital "A"theist...

Jaden



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:06 PM
link   
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 
You can buy a star from me with hooker groupies!

Can you throw in a free CD?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



Atheism is a disbelief that something does exist.



Since you like to use math rules and apply them to language...I'm just gonna go ahead and manipulate your statement

I'm going to take your "Not" in disbelief and move it over to "does"...because it's just like taking the "-1" and moving it to another number in math....like -20 = 2 * -5 * 2 = 2 * 5 * -2.

So Atheism = disbelief that something does exist = beleif that something doesn't exist.

See how that works....Language math is fun...because we make up our own rules to fit our agenda.


BTW...you know who else plays with semantics to fit their agenda....religious fundamentalist...see how much you two are alike?? Both thinking you are absolutly right...and willing to make silly statments, redefine words, and play semantics just to not admit to something.



It seems to me that you are manipulating words to fit your agenda. Lack of belief that something exists != belief that something doesn't exist.

What you say is just plain false and manipulative. Are you a fundamentalist?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:22 PM
link   
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



A synonym of disbelief is also "incredulity". Are you also going to explain to us how incredulity is actually credulity?


Oh...so we have moved on to synonyms huh?

Let's look at synonyms of "belief"


acceptance, admission, assent, assumption, assurance, avowal, axiom, certainty, conclusion, confidence, conjecture, conviction, credence, credit, deduction, divination, expectation, faith, fancy, feeling, guess, hope, hypothesis, idea, impression, intuition, judgment, knowledge, mind, mindset, notion, opinion, persuasion, position, postulation, presumption, presupposition, profession, reliance, supposition, surmise, suspicion, theorem, theory, thesis, thinking, trust, understanding, view


So do you all of those are interchangeable with belief? And Athiests are just the antonym of that word?

How about "certainty" an antonym is "doubt":
Theist: Certain God Exist
Atheist: Doubt God Exist

Doesn't sound like the definition for Atheists.

How about "conclusion" an antonym is "introduce":
Theists: Concludes that God Exist
Atheists: Introduce that God Exists

hmmm...I think I'll start using that one...since you know...I'm playing by your rules and we can interchange synonyms and then the antonym is the atheists stance.


Shall I go on...or do you see how silly this is getting?


You didn't answer me if you see how alike you are to a religous fundamentalist trying to twist and turn definitions, synonyms, using "word logic" just to try to maintain a position that doesn't make sense???



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
BTW...you know who else plays with semantics to fit their agenda....religious fundamentalist...see how much you two are alike?? Both thinking you are absolutly right...and willing to make silly statments, redefine words, and play semantics just to not admit to something.


Are you capable of expressing your viewpoint without employing ad hominem?

I'm not going to admit to something that is patently false. This line of thinking is likely why I'm an atheist in the first place. This is an issue of misconception and if anyone is playing math games with words it is those who insist that atheism is a belief. Atheism is a disbelief. As I've already stated, for some people, in some circumstances, for certain reasons atheism might be considered a belief but the blanket statement that "atheism is a belief" is patently false and this misconception deserves to be addressed.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 12:28 PM
link   
That's why lack of belief is agnostic, while atheism is disbelief in God. Disbelief as in believing the opposite to the statement "there is a God". It's really not that hard to understand. There is much reasoning behind various stance, like lack of evidence, but there in the end are still stances.



new topics




 
8
<< 11  12  13    15  16  17 >>

log in

join