Inflitration of the Truth Movement

Posters here often talk about government agents inveigling their way into the Truth Movement, or accuse people of writing here at the behest of the authorities.

Looking at the general direction of the 9/11 discourse it strikes me that there is a genuine possibility that the TM is being targeted. But by anti-semitic groups.

Since Bush went there's been a move towards blaming Israel more overtly. I notice the ancient nonsense about Israelis receiving warnings and not going to work has even reared its head again - a trope I thought had gone a long time ago. The number of disingenuous posts by new members who were "just flicking through youtube" and "came across this interesting video about Israelis" has grown.

I'm aware that criticism of Israel is not antisemitic in itself. But there is a point where the timbre and content of the posts moves near the line. And the likelihood is that genuine antisemites will use the cloak of "fair criticism" of Israel as their stalking horse.

Are those in the TM worried about becoming unwitting agents of anti-semitism?

reply to post by TrickoftheShade

Are those in the TM worried about becoming unwitting agents of anti-semitism?

Anti-Semitism is usually recognizable even when cleverly disguised as something else. There is something intangible yet very identifiable about this particular hatred. Most Truthers I have encountered do not believe in the “Israeli involvement” in the 911 events. I certainly am not worried about being a pawn for such schemes.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade


Anti Semitism has always been at the root of TRUTHERISM . Conspiracy mongers like Eric Hufschmid, a Holocaust denier, and Chris Bolleyn of
AMERICAN FREE PRESS (itself the suceesor to the rabid SPOTLIGHT
newspaper) were the first to start blaming the Jews for 911

Some home in on Larry "the Evil Jew" Silverstein claiming that he blew up the WTC complex (including WTC 7) as part of some giant insurance scam

Others point to Daniel Lewin, an American - Israeli citizen and former Israeli special forces member (Sayeret Matkal) who was killed by one of hijackers when tried to intervene on AMERICAN 11. He was the first to die on 911

Some bring up the lie that 4000 Jews did not show up for work at WTC
because had been warned to stay away by Mossad

The NYC Medical Examiner responsible for identifying the remains recovered at WTC estimate that about 20 % of victims were Jews
based on names, places of residence and other factors

Many Jews performed heroically on 911 - going into the disaster sccene
refer to Glenn Winuk, Richard Pearlman, Avram Zelmanowitz and Steve Bellson who died trying to rescue others.

So it seems that having been beat down in many of its conspiracy theories Truthism is returning to baser motives in trying to promote their story.

Originally posted by impressme
Anti-Semitism is usually recognizable even when cleverly disguised as something else. There is something intangible yet very identifiable about this particular hatred. Most Truthers I have encountered do not believe in the “Israeli involvement” in the 911 events. I certainly am not worried about being a pawn for such schemes.

The irony of the above statement just flabberghasts me. I've heard from other self declared truthers here (I.E. Bonez) who say that the movement is likewise being targeted by disinformation agents circulating complete nonsense in order to discredit the truthers by association, with "the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile" and "the Shanksville crash was faked" claims being famous cases in point. From prior exchanges, I know Impressme is a certified believer in both these claims.

He doesn't seem to be worried that he's a pawn in some antisemitism scheme of the Israel bashers, but by the truthers' own definition he is necessarily a pawn in the discrediting scheme of the disinformation agents. A pawn is still a pawn, regardless of whether the pawn is being played by Gary Kasparov or a student first learning how to play chess.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


You must have ridden the short bus Dave, seriously. You obviously did not comprehend what you read.

Stop bashing everyone in the TM (and that is not trademark or time machine) just because you are too afraid to even consider the possibility that our government / military may have been involved in 911. If you don't think it is a possibility, you have no reason to be in these threads. They are for people to discuss the 911 theories, not to ridicule (sorry for the big word Dave) people who don't see things through your distorted eyes.

Anti-Semites attack Israel and Jews through every possible means. It is in the papers everyday, it is on the TV and radio everyday, it is very easy to detect if you have an ounce of brain. People deny the Holocaust openly in THiS country everyday. Of course the Holocaust was real but we have freedom of speech which allows everyone to exress their views, with little exception. Ths is one of the freedoms that makes America America.

You can believe the OS Dave, even though you have never posted one piece of credible evidence to back your opinions. Yet, you pounce on "Truthers" who do post very credible evidence that supports their claims.

Didn't mean to stray off topic so apologies to all. Bottom line - Anti-Semites may try to use "Truthers" to help carry out their sick agenda but I believe most can identify such evil.


[edit on 29-7-2010 by truthcounts]

reply to post by GoodOlDave

The irony of the above statement just flabberghasts me. I've heard from other self declared truthers here (I.E. Bonez) who say that the movement is likewise being targeted by disinformation agents circulating complete nonsense

in order to discredit the truthers by association, with "the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile" and "the Shanksville crash was faked" claims being famous cases in point. From prior exchanges, I know Impressme is a certified believer in both these claims.

I should have known this particular thread was set up to bash Truthers as you just demonstrated. What I find flabbergasting is you pointing out my beliefs, yet you are a certified believer in the OS fairytale that has been proven a lie by science.

He doesn't seem to be worried that he's a pawn in some antisemitism scheme of the Israel bashers,

You are not my spokes person; do not try to express my opinions. If you wish to quote me then do it properly.
Your comment above is a fine demonstration of assumptions and untruths; this is the garbage that most Truthers usually ignore.

but by the truthers' own definition he is necessarily a pawn in the discrediting scheme of the disinformation agents.

Dave you should know, because you have demonstrated that you support the proven lies of the OS. Who is the pawn here Dave?


[edit on 29-7-2010 by impressme]

reply to post by TrickoftheShade

I don't mind a thread like this. There have been threads started by truthers with the aim to show tactics used against the truth movement by people who are sometimes perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be government disinfo agents or sometimes merely "official story" apologists, assigned to this detail.

Playing the anti-semitism card is like playing the race card. It is an established tactic for avoiding issues and derailing discussions. It is obvious to most truthers when it starts.

Of course there is anti-semitism here and there in society. A lot of it is along the lines of "Don't like the color orange. Never have, never will. It don't have the guts to be red and ain't pure enough to be yellow." And so on in that vein. Ho hum.

I love it when debunkers try to act like they care about the truth movement.

I'm so SICK of hearing about race and antisemitism.
I counted the other day - I only watched tv for about 2 hours and heard the word RACISM more than 70 times.


It gives me a headache. People need to quit racing so much and slow down and find some good leaders.

Originally posted by impressme
I should have known this particular thread was set up to bash Truthers

It wasn't actually. It was started because I thought that some Truthers might be genuinely concerned about a rising tide of anti-jewish feeling within the Truth Movement. And perhaps might feel that there's a risk of infiltration by antisemites piggy backing on the cause of 9/11 "Truth".

There's plenty of evidence of it. Depressingly there's also plenty of evidence that nobody really cares. Jew bashing is just another fun little conspiracy, it seems.

Originally posted by truthcounts
You must have ridden the short bus Dave, seriously. You obviously did not comprehend what you read.

On the contrary, I understand the situation quite clearly. Person A steadfastly believes Israel was behind it, while person B sincerely believes the gov't behind it. I've even seen people thoroughly convinced that the 9/11 attack was staged by a secret cult of Satan worshipping numerologists. It's blatantly obvious that you conspiracy people only believe what you yourselves want to believe according to your individual angsts, like some great big Rorschach test, and you're using the 9/11 attack to further your own individual political ends. This is the entire reason why you're all but getting into fistfights amongst yourselves over what this "blatantly a conspiracy" even is.

Impressme believes a cruise missile hit the Pentagon, while Bonez believes this is disinformation hogwash, and both are adamantly clinging to their sides of the story. So, you tell me- which one is correct?

Stop bashing everyone in the TM (and that is not trademark or time machine) just because you are too afraid to even consider the possibility that our government / military may have been involved in 911. If you don't think it is a possibility, you have no reason to be in these threads. They are for people to discuss the 911 theories, not to ridicule (sorry for the big word Dave) people who don't see things through your distorted eyes.

(Sigh) I don't understand why I continuously need to beat this dead horse...my point if you disagree with the 9/11 commission's account and instead believe the gov't is behind the 9/11 attack, fine, but the responsibility is on YOU to show why. Up until now, I haven't seen even a microbe of any tangible evidence the gov't was behind it, only the false factoids that can be disproven in 30 seconds of research, quotes taken out of context, and piles of, "Isn't THAT interesting (wink wink)" innuendo those damned fool conspiracy web sites are shovelling out. I've posted lots of material here, but the problem is that you're already lost in a runaway train of circular logic of conspiracies within secret plots within coverups, so you simply make up a reason off the top of your head why you don't have to believe it.

I invite you to prove me wrong- why don't you accept the FEMA and NIST reports? It's becuase you think they're just a gigantic cabal of secret gov't disinformation agents, right?

reply to post by GoodOlDave


ATS is a conspiracy website; it is a blog forum with many interesting Topics, threads, and videos. We are all entitled to our opinions whether you like it or not.

Anyone supporting the OS that has been on ATS as long as you have must have an agenda. Anyone that has done just a little research knows there is something wrong with the OS, too many proven lies being told by our government and no evidence to support the OS claims and the ridiculous physics that defies Newton's law is what the government and NIST wants the American people to believe.
Do you think Americans are that stupid Dave? When you brought up NIST, I thought you where kidding.

why don't you accept the FEMA and NIST reports?

Dave, it is obvious that you have never read any of these reports, had you read any of them, you would have never posted such a ridiculous statement. Dave, no one supports the Bush political reports, these reports were proven false by science years ago.

I invite you to prove me wrong

As far as proving you wrong, Dave everyone has. You just continue to ignore everyone.



I am so glad very few people on ATS support your beliefs

Impressme believes a cruise missile hit the Pentagon, while Bonez believes this is disinformation hogwash, and both are adamantly clinging to their sides of the story. So, you tell me- which one is correct?

Yes, I stand by my conviction, as you stand by yours, the OS.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by impressme]

Hi People

Can we keep it on-topic, no personal attacks etc etc...you all know the drill by now.

See that great big ol' - glowing even - message at the bottom of the page:

Any inappropriate comments, insults, topic derailment, or trolling will result in immediate posting ban or account termination.

...so lets not pretend we didn't see it...


Cheers.

911 is a conspiracy that has yet to be solved, where America and Israel gained the most. In any crime you look to see who gained from it.

I have Jewish relatives and American relatives and I don't think ANY of them were involved, however I cant speak for everyone.

Originally posted by impressme
ATS is a conspiracy website; it is a blog forum with many interesting Topics, threads, and videos. We are all entitled to our opinions whether you like it or not.

I know I've told you this already- ATS isn't a conspiracy web site, per se. It's more like a conspiracy clearing house where proponents and critics of every conspiracy idea circulating around from the JFK assassination to chemtrails to the moon landing can come and have their say. A true conspiracy web site would be the Loose Change site operated by that con artist Dylan Avery, who have a favored in-house conspiracy which they push at the expense of all other viewpoints to the point of censorship.

If ATS were a genuine conspiracy web site, I, Radek, Weedwhacker, etc would have been banned in a week. I know that would please you immensely, but sorry, ATS has more intellectual honesty than you do.

Anyone supporting the OS that has been on ATS as long as you have must have an agenda. Anyone that has done just a little research knows there is something wrong with the OS, too many proven lies being told by our government and no evidence to support the OS claims and the ridiculous physics that defies Newton's law is what the government and NIST wants the American people to believe.

No, actually, anyone who's been on this site for any length of time will see that your "research" is crap that either you or those damned fool conspiracy web sites are manufacturing on your own. You...yes, YOU...put so much religious faith in eyewitness accounts when it comes to hearing explosions in the WTC but when eyewitnesses similarly report a passenger jet hit the Pentagon, and a passenger jet falling out of the sky at Shankville, you're suddenly...



The only one here with a blatant agenda is you. BTW thanks for that graphic, as it describes the conspiracy theorists nicely. I will put it to good use.

Dave, it is obvious that you have never read any of these reports, had you read any of them, you would have never posted such a ridiculous statement. Dave, no one supports the Bush political reports, these reports were proven false by science years ago.

You are making the fatal mistake of interpreting your own self delusion as fact. If even a microbe of what any of you conspiracy people are saying were true, you wouldn't be constantly fighting off the misconception that you're a bunch of crackpots. You know that and so do I.

Yes, I stand by my conviction, as you stand by yours, the OS.

That's as much of a non-answer as a non-answer can get. You conspiracy people keep insisting there's blatant evidence of some conspiracy going on and yet not even two of you can get together and agree on what the details of this"blatantly a conspiracy" even is. You yourself obviously want to believe some cruise missile hit the Pentagon and the Shanksville crash site was faked, while your fellow conspiracy theorist Bonez says it's rubbish and obvious disinformation.

Are you saying that Bonez is wrong? It's not a trick question, guy.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by GoodOlDave]

I am 100% certain that the 9/11 job was executed by the Mossad (apart from the Freemasonic sect and French secret services who also contributed to the efforts). And the Mossad was also assisted by hundreds of well-wishing civilian Jews - most of them US citizens, who traditionally assist the Mossad in any clean and dirty affair it undetakes. So there is nothing really uncommon. But this belief of mine does not make an anti-Semite out of me, because I like Jews in general, moreover, half of my own relatives are Jews. So what?

TrickoftheShade states:
"Are those in the TM worried about becoming unwitting agents of anti-semitism? "

-- Just as much as trusters should be worried about becoming unwitting agents of Israel.

I noticed between the Bill Clinton thread you started though and this one that you are attempting to develop a style of thread creation that appears to be about genuine concern for the 911 truth but you then twist it for a cheap set up.
But look how many replies you get. Look how many people fall for it besides valermia and goodoldave. Its actually quite interesting though. Thanks for the laughs.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade


What if the evidence implicates Israel? Is such evidence to be considered anti-semitic, or is just the reading of the evidence to be considered such?

Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

What if the evidence implicates Israel? Is such evidence to be considered anti-semitic, or is just the reading of the evidence to be considered such?

Really? All of Israel? Here's the question what if there is no evidence and then you make something up that you hope "implicates Israel" will you admit that is anti-semitic? (And please, I don't need anthropology lectures about who and who is not semitic - we all know the popular connotation of the word).